my sig says it all.......

well tonight just goes to show even old content can be fun if you havnt done it in a while :P. I had a wicked nights racing, thank you CTRA - I tell yez whoever came up with that system is a fricking genius ...

Quote from Jonesy_ :

Only thing it comes out on top is the driving feel, which isn't all in a racing sim.

(add sound & graphics to your list btw)



I was pretty sure that tire physics and vehicle dynamics were the crux of a racing sim. If it really was as you say, then I wouldn't have played LFS for the last number of years. rFactor is the king of content (when you count mods), yet I didn't play it much. Why? Because the physics were trash (save for Neils'). Now there's better physics to be had, and that's what matters. It also happens to look and sound better. GTR2 had brake heat, and damages etc but I didn't play that much - same reason. See where I'm going with this? Content is a dime a dozen. If a sim does not have rock solid tire physics and vehicle dynamics, the rest simply does not matter one little bit - therefore I content that indeed, driving feel IS in fact "all" in a racing sim

Let's just use the old LFS defense in this situation: "they're still working on it, don't whine about missing features... they'll be added" Check my review, especially the end of it - I don't have rose coloured glasses about the current overall picture with iRacing, even as I stated above. But the driving experience is definitely superior over there and that's, for me, the most important thing in a ... driving sim! The missing things will be addressed and probably before we've passed away.

Quote :

Can't remember who said this originally, but it went somewhat along the lines of "They all suck, so you just have to play the one sucking least".

Pretty sure it was Shotglass. I didn't realize how right he was back then though.

iRacing is completely irrelevent to me. It doesn't appear to have even the beginnings of a cohesive community - something I'm very much interested in - and even if money were no object, I'd never choose rental over purchase. There are an increasing number of previously-iR-enamoured people who are saying to me that iRacing lacks in significant areas, not just brake lights and clutch models though of course they can't be ignored, and that just isn't holding their attention. The iR glue is weak.

AFAIK, iR and LFS have been in development roughly the same length of time (you have to include the base NR code upon which iR has been built). iR has, according to the big guys, an unlimited budget and 40 or so developers.. but considering the ratios of cashflow and development teams, I don't think LFS is exactly behind on content.

But more than all of that, iR has got absolutely bugger all to do with the updates vs ethos of LFS development and I'm not interested in furthering this hijack.

If your not happy , vote with your feet .

No one needs to know your reasons and in reality probably no one cares, if brand "X" makes you happy then more power to you.

Now to be fair iRacing is pretty good straight out of the box, remember there at S1 or whatever it was before S1 so to compare LFS with 4-5 years of more development is not exactly apples and apples.

Far out i didnt want to get into iRacing vs LFS again, i just like fair comparisons i guess.

Have you driven iRacing Sam?

You keep talking about different things and setting an argument type of tone that I'm not out to pursue...

I drove the LFS demo and I liked it, so I bought it.

The iRacing demo doesn't download or run on my PC.

Ah, so I guess asking you to relate to my point about driving ... and sims is a bit over your head at this point then

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

The missing things will be addressed and probably before we've passed away.

Painfully funny..

You have your priorities in sim racing, I have mine. I'm not a lesser mortal for not paying into iR.

Quote from SamH :

You have your priorities in sim racing, I have mine. I'm not a lesser mortal for not paying into iR.

No of course not, you're exactly right though - I'm glad you said that.

Because likewise, I'm also not FOR paying into it; which is the feeling I get from some folks that act like they don't play it for some bogus moral reason with their pricing structure. Personally I think no demo or offline is odd as well, but whatever. But for some reason some people act like it's the moral high ground, nose in the air "hmph, I refuse to pay out of principle" attitude that winds me up a little.

But confusing that issue with the quality of the sim (right now just in terms of driving experience) is really a strange thing to do.

Bottom line: If it's simply value you're after, obviously LFS has lots. If it's simply the best driving physical model available publicly at the moment, AND you don't care about the cost, then iRacing has it. It's like video cards: a GTX280 is still faster than a 4870 for now, but it costs a lot more. Whilst a 4870 will do you great, if you only care about having the fastest single GPU card made so far then the GTX280 is for you. The 4870 is still a better value overall though.

Quote from richo :

Far out i didnt want to get into iRacing vs LFS again, i just like fair comparisons i guess.

Yeah well both games are under development and that for a indefinite period. You can compare them, content and feature wise but at some point, if you try and put everything together it just leads you towards an subjective or incomplete conclusion.

Quote from SamH :

I'd never choose rental over purchase.

Same here. As much as im tempted to give it a go it simply is against my nature. I wouldn't exactly call it a rip off or anything, mostly due to a lack of proper information about the circumstances for this decision but it really has a bad taste somehow. Hopefully it doesnt end up like MCO.

Something on topic, im patient, been for a long time and about to as long as i have to since i knew very early about the way LFS is going to be developed (at least roughly). LFS is still thrilling even after a couple of years now. Well, it is getting boring every now and then but i have no idea why i should stop playing it completely (at least im not forced to play it since its not a rental product ) after all the good times it brought me (not to mention the relationships with so many great people along the way (heck i even had a great week in spain with some of them and if that is not remarkable to get from a "niche product" then i dont know what else to say )). I had my moments every now and then but yeah, soon ripe, soon rotten i guess.

"Prepared" for the worst and hoping for the best.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

But confusing that issue with the quality of the sim (right now just in terms of driving experience) is really a strange thing to do.

I ought to reiterate that I am not anti-iR at all. I simply recognise, without paying $20 to demo it, that it doesn't offer any value for money to me. I am not in any way detrimented by spending my $20 on other things. Perhaps at some point in time in the future iR will break that $20 value barrier, though it will have to offer significantly more for the $20 than it does now and my understanding is that there are no plans for it to do so.

I understand and appreciate that the tyre physics in iR are fantastic and that the tracks are amazing, but rightly or wrongly I am happy with the feel I have in LFS, knowing/believing that they are works in progress and that I probably won't have to spend more when they get better. If I want to get a comparison between what LFS is and what it COULD be, I have a 2.0L turbo in the drive and a fantastic road near me colloquially known as the "Corkscrew". Right now, I'm happy. For $20, I can splash on some gas and go and annoy Kev in York (an evil plan I intend to hatch soon), and I would more willingly pay that to (mostly the tax bastards but also to) BP than iR because the experience is most definitely going to be more real that way.

In a small effort to round this corner, back to the topic at hand.. I believe in LFS. I believe in the content, I believe in the future and in the present, I am a MASSIVE fan (many times stated) of the working ethos and I know without a shadow of doubt that I will (as I have until now) continue to reap the benefits of the passion behind it. I love the community, I love the things that I am involved in (CTRA, V1 etc), I'm falling in love with the RB4 all over again, I love the skin I'm working on, I love the new idea for MyCTRA that we hashed out tonight, I love Westhill, I love my dog despite the horrible smells she's making, and I am left wanting for absolutely nothing*.

I am not, nor ever have been, nor ever will be anti-iR as a simulator. But neither do I need it over what I have. To me, that grass just doesn't look green, and that's just how it is.

[edit] *except a fresh can of Febreze

Quote from SamH :

Don't even bother to compare iRacing with LFS in this thread as if they're like-for-like. How silly.

Well that's not very nice...

Quote from SamH :

It doesn't appear to have even the beginnings of a cohesive community

About the sense of community in iRacing...I am not sure what you are basing that on Sam, but I've found it great so far. I've raced against many people lots of times and when I see people I know often they will say hi and ask how things are. I had a bad race recently and got in the way of someone who was coming up to lap me. I was so frustrated with my performance in the race by this point that I quit. The next day I checked the forum and got this message.... "Hey I noticed you disconnected after our coming together. I guess 'cos you felt bad, well don't. It was just an accident, stuff happens. You made me concentrate on catching second and I ran my fastest laps yet trying. You'll do better next time. I have no worries racing with you in the future. Take it easy." And I've also had another 3 PMs from people saying how much they enjoyed racing with me etc. That's not happened once in LFS... Anyway, I guess all I'm saying is it's easy to judge from the outside, but only when you give it a go can you understand what it's actually like. I could go on about physics and missing features and other things but really I just wanted to mention that one thing as it was not really based on first hand experience.

No demo... good luck t'yee.

Quote from Michael Denham :

About the sense of community in iRacing...I am not sure what you are basing that on Sam, but I've found it great so far. I've raced against many people lots of times and when I see people I know often they will say hi and ask how things are. I had a bad race recently and got in the way of someone who was coming up to lap me. I was so frustrated with my performance in the race by this point that I quit. The next day I checked the forum and got this message.... "Hey I noticed you disconnected after our coming together. I guess 'cos you felt bad, well don't. It was just an accident, stuff happens. You made me concentrate on catching second and I ran my fastest laps yet trying. You'll do better next time. I have no worries racing with you in the future. Take it easy." And I've also had another 3 PMs from people saying how much they enjoyed racing with me etc. That's not happened once in LFS... Anyway, I guess all I'm saying is it's easy to judge from the outside, but only when you give it a go can you understand what it's actually like. I could go on about physics and missing features and other things but really I just wanted to mention that one thing as it was not really based on first hand experience.

Indeed, that's what I've noticed on the forums so far. Since I haven't really raced since last year I have not ventured online on iRacing so far, but what you say confirms what I've been seeing on the forum. People seem pretty cool, there's a lot of intelligent folk for the most part and everyone seems to have an inate sense of respect, generally speaking of course, for each other. If anything I think the iRacing community is shaping up pretty nice thus far; I hope it continues. I wasn't sure where he was getting that from either and I'm glad someone else mentioned it since things were feeling a little sideways.

It's always precarious to even mention something else on this forum, and I think most know that I've defended LFS like crazy for ages, and I still have nothing against it or the devs or anything... I want to make that clear. LFS was/is a pioneer in this genre in many ways, and it's a hell of an acheivement for (basically) one person, that's for certain.

Someone spoke of the freedom of LFS, which is great, however if I want to race with people I'm still f*cked with LFS. I went online tonight to try and get a feel for LFS again after running iRacing, to have fun and say hi to some folks perhaps but I wanted to run TBO. Guess what? NOTHING. There was not one single bloody combo I was interested in because all the servers in LFS were either drift, cruise, or some combo (ASNAT/GTR) that I have no hope of having fun it since people seem to run it 24/7. To be totally honest, I'd rather a system like iRacing where everyone is in the same boat if you want to compete. Practice the combos for the series, and get it good. Freedom is fine, and if I lived in the UK it'd probably be different - but in the Americas it's slim pickings for LFS.

Someone above said "vote with your feet", well, great cliche to quote... but I don't want/have to choose. I still like LFS, it has better variety ilke FWD, turbos, AWD etc. I can and will choose to play both. However when I get "serious" about simracing, it's pretty obvious what I would pick - better physics, better graphics, better sound, better tracks, and a timezone that I live in all belong to iRacing.

Quote :

but I wanted to run TBO. Guess what? NOTHING.

I spent all night on TBO's, it was fantastic fun, and i've got to sheepishly go cap in hand to my partner later and appologise for ignoring her messages ALL night. I finished sometime roughly around 1, so you shoulda been able to join us.

EDIT: I deleted the rest of my post, I woke up grumpy. TBO racing kept me up late.

I think the point is that the... less desirables in this community are far too poor (i.e. their 13) to afford iRacing and so the average age is higher and so the forums would be a nicer place.

Sort of like religion , why must one religion always (mostly) try and convert the other to its ways?

I dont like eggs, but you must like eggs because i like eggs yadda yadda ...

silly stuff

We're all gonna go gray because of things like this.

Mate, I am RAPIDLY going grey already, man old age is creeping up on me fast!!!!

I just got my iRacing invitation so by tonight I'll know what ye all are talking about. Hmm, I guess this is a little bit off topic but here goes anyway, maybe I'll find a way to tie it in somehow.

Its probably at bit premature to put crap on the iRacing community as its only just building, dontcha think? Sure, LFS has a great community but it had a lot of time to get to where it is now.

Regarding the relative costs, my using LFS over the last 4 or so years has cost me maybe $50 AUD or so, thats incredibly good value, and quite a difference to the $160 or so AUD I would have to shell out to play iRacing for just one year. Well, I probably will just because 1 month is not enough for me to get a good feel for the sim and the online racing it provides. So, no wonder some will put up their nose at it. It IS expensive. Some will feel excluded because they can't afford it, some will not pay out of principle. Think about the kind of community this setup may give rise to...

Anyway, the moaning about updates (on topic now), I just don't subscribe to that myself, there are so many track/car combinations in LFS, its got plenty of interest left in it for me. And, really, what counts for me is the online racing action, exhilarating, edge of your seat kind of racing, with a bunch of like minded others for the sheer fun of it. I had lots of that in LFS. LOTS!

I'm happy to try any combo, the only thing I need to join a server is a lot of competition, I give servers with 3, 4, 5, or 6 drivers usually a miss. I like a big field.

So, where am I going with this? Ah yeah, the moaning about updates. I don't. Thats all there is to it. If I get bored with it (and I do from time to time) I do something else. When S3 comes out I WILL buy it, not because I'm dying for new content, but because I've received such good value with S1 and S2, I feel I owe them... And If it never happens, I won't be upset, because, really, I underpaid, they over-delivered. That addresses the ethos question too, I think. Nothing controversial there. Not at all.

iRacing on the other hand, has to prove itself first. They turned up expectations pretty high with their marketing bling, and, given their price structure, they are under considerable pressure to deliver something exceptional. Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying iRacing, only a few hours to go now...

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Content is a dime a dozen.

Not in certain circles it's not.

I don't know what you categorize as content, but a track with extra bumps on it (either due to high-precision scanning of a real one or inspired imagination for an imaginary one) can be a pretty good selling point. And that counts as content AFAIK.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

which is the feeling I get from some folks that act like they don't play it for some bogus moral reason with their pricing structure

Well, there's always the genuine reason of simply not wanting to pay just to try something out. Not to mention what a pisser it would be if you pay the 20 bucks just for kicks and then end up liking it, thus knowing you'd have to keep on paying to play it.

And now back to the topic at hand:

I think most people that get grumpy and edgy about LFS are the ones that probably have played it to death or the ones who think they have (for example people that stick to 2-3 combos and if something happens in an update that changes something in the combo they've driven thousands of laps on they go ballistic). No matter how much you like something you'll reach a saturation point if you are at it for many hours each day - it's inevitable.

Another underlying factor is the general increase of aggressive behavior online, as seen in forums and such (1st prize goes to the youtube commentbox). More and more people appear to have a short fuse and/or forget how to express themselves without resorting to personal insult. Add that style to someone who is looking for a gaming fix and has been addicted to LFS but reaches their saturation point and you get what looks like a withdrawal syndrome - only geekier.

Blessed be the casual gamers.

i agree with beckys thread-opening. lfs is incredible value for money. there is no product i had so much fun over such a long time for that price. ....but it got boring. i was always hoping for better sounds, rallycross updates etc. etc. as i don't like single-seaters every bonus car was uninteresting for me.

i have found this all in another racesim which gets naturally badmouthed in this forum (well it's the official lfs forum) and i am happy with it. another plus is, that because i am not racing very often anymore, i don't have to see that i cannot reach the laptimes i did in the past in lfs. in this other sim, i switch cars and tracks that often, that i just cannot remember my PBs .

"...do something else and come back to lfs.......if you are bored"

i hope someday there is a reason to return, but on the other hand, i don't really care anymore. either iracing is a complete ripoff and will be dead in some months or it will be way ahead of lfs and probably the next sim i will drive. if you charge that much money, you HAVE to put manpower into holding your customers.

i am still hoping for the big surprise in lfs though.........

p.s.:
one reason is the language barrier, one are the lfs-supporters jumping at anyone who doesn't agree with everything lfs stands for: Sir moi is right, in other forums racers express their concerns about this much more openly and are discussing other sims more often.

Quote from Becky Rose :

well tonight just goes to show even old content can be fun if you havnt done it in a while :P. I had a wicked nights racing, thank you CTRA - I tell yez whoever came up with that system is a fricking genius ...

Think that the person that did is retired and counting the dough in jamaica