Quote from SamH :

100% possible. I can insert a mix of tracks and specific cars into the existing rotation. Forcing use of a car that a driver does not favour could cause them to either drop out of the server or fall in love with that car (every TBO car is adorable, if you're in a level field). When everyone is in that car, though, it's fun to go for it.

The effect would have to be monitored closely, and you need to know that any damage to the popularity of the server would be (I've found) slow to recover from. It would relieve some of the pressure to balance cars, though, so I'm interested to hear from people who would prefer no balancing, how they would feel about being forced into an RB4 or XRT for a couple of hours. Thoughts?

I think this idea would kill the server tbh....

I guess all these questions could be entirely put to bed if LFS made a review of the class balancing in TBO.

Quote from Bean0 :

Put the FXOs at the back

I think this is a very good idea.

For me, it would actually be a reason to drive FXO. I like starting at the back.

Pay attention please: Most people who talk here and who replied were drivers who use FXO on server.
I see many XRT/RB4 drivers that say: "There is no chance to catch up".

It's right,in right hands these cars can be almost as fast....
But only Best level drivers can be as fast as normal FXO drivers.
It's nonsense, that no matter how hard i try, there is an FXO with "medium" driver comes and passes.
In corner exit from let's say 70 kph till 150...it's truly seen that FXO is pulling away and no chance to get it.
So where the FXO is slower ? hmmm, lets see.....
It's best at braking
It's best at Acceleration
It has best cornering grip
It has best acceleration even above 200 kph

Sorry, if it looks whining, i just want to have a Close racing with all type of cars, since its TBO.
People who talk about Points: Who drives for points?
Most of us Drive for RACING each other. To have close racing and thinking of using another cars advantages/disadvantages.
It's a deep tactics. But when you can't catch up [unless u r Best driver] - there is no tactics works

Making restricted car [only Rb4 day etc], i don't think it's a good idea, because it forces people to do something they don't want.
Sure i understand, that asking about restricting Power of the car they drive [FXO] - they will also not like, because NOW they are faster, so why we'll make it even ?
There is a request to make a Testing Day, where FXO will have around 5-10% engine restriction [i think it's still will be fast enough].
Keep in light [since it's advantage of this car], but it's Engine power is insane for this weight.
IMHO: easier cars should be a bit slower, and difficult cars should be praised to be faster.
Looking forward your help.

On the other hand, Sander, in the endurance races at Aston 1 just now I (in an RB4) was able to keep FXOs at bay (some of the time) and drive past a few people I thought I'd never be fast enough to overtake.

Perhaps they weren't giving it 100% or something, but a small twisty track like that really seemed to tip the balance, if not in favour of the RB4 then certainly to "even".

I was leaning towards some form of restriction, but after the experience tonight I'm not so sure. Perhaps we need to find a few combos that suit each of the TBOs to let them shine. Perhaps we've just had a few combos that suit the FXO more. It's going to take some thought, and we're still firmly in the "thinking" stage.

Quote :

where FXO will have around 5-10% engine restriction

Well my experience running the STCC where we had drivers who could race on or around WR's in all 3 car classes was that with an engine restriction of 3% the FXO was too slow. With improvements to the RB4 and XRT suspension I do not believe the FXO needs very much taming to be equal, a little yes, but i'm thinking 1-2%.

Well, about AS1...it's a twitchy track, where RB4 feels like a fish in a water.
Maybe some CITY tracks can be also good for RB4, oki, this one agreed.
But what about other tracks? No chance, sorry.
With all the respect, i went to check the numbers: 3% of FXO restriction makes them 226 hp instead of 234 and it's with 1136 kg !!!
While RB4 has 243 hp on 1210 kg and laggy Turbo, and while XRT has 247 hp on 1223 kg.

I agree with 3-4% restriction of Power only
[no weight restriction,since it has narrow tires and its developed as a Light-weight]. Real life example is Honda Integra, that is light and the refore good in braking and cornering.


With many people who i talked to - it seems obvious, that FXOs too fast for it's class and it ruins interest in Racing.
Maybe you can not belive, but please [i ask from names of many racers] - enter CTRA 2 server from time to time, take XRT or RB4, and compete with all the monsters. Lets say on KY National...6 laps
You'll feel it by yourself [unless you do WR times].

Just for interest:
Just drove FXO on KY NATIONAL. Did better times without restriction and with 3% restriction than I do in XRT usually. Its rudicilous,because i dont even drive FXO ever, but still it's speed is unbeliveable. Speed,stability and cornering.
5% restriction will somehow allow the TBO class to be competitive [ world-class XRT drivers will make better time maybe, but they are very least]
Before we close a poll and decide what to do, please try yourself to make a few laps on KY national for example, if FXO and XRT [compare the times]. even with 3% restriction it's faster

Willi, don't try it, you are just too fast for LFS

Sanderman I think you are way off. any more then 3% in the FXO and its VERY hard for even myself to keep up with good RB4 XRT drivers, Esp given the start for FWD. Its not just a case of making it slower.. it needs to be ever so slightly faster to claw back lost time from the start of a race.

*edit*

Those that think FXO is too fast but you want to drive it, why not just restrict it yourself ? Its not that hard, the options are there to use. PLus i think the more people do it the more will follow (but maybe thats being too wishful)

Al, you are a thorn in my side without any restriction

way out
if you remember Aston 2rev: FXO's did 1:12 very low.
Best XRT did 1.13 low if i am not wrong
and most XRT drivers 1:14 low.
What i am trying to say:
Difference in times of skilled driving and less skilled in XRT is huge, in FXO it's less meaning.
I'll start driving FXO in the end, to have a close racing. Or to keep on learning the RWD machine

I wonder why here in forum I get such replies.Like i am crazy and FXO isn't 1-2 second faster itself in the class [talking about medium+ level of drivers] :/

AS2R is FXO dream!
See, long straights and tight corners - high speed braking, full throttle exit.
The chicane is the only issue with the FXO but due to its grip advantage it is manageable.
Whatever balancing solution is found, it must not be based on this track only - try on SO (longer ones) or FE tracks.
BTW I kept to RB4 on AS2R and managed high 1:14 / low 1:15 due too poor driving and setup abilities, but still had fights with FXOs (lost all of them on the straights though) and XRTs and even scored a few points. I do not think the TBO balance is that bad.

I think the TBO's seem to be balanced for longer races not sprints like most days on CTRA. In a long race the other cars can make up time after the FXO has crisped their tires.
I personaly like the way it is now because if I need to keep up and have a good race with some ALIENS I choose the FXO, if I want to race with people more in my class I choose one of the other cars

Quote from sanderman2000 :

I wonder why here in forum I get such replies.Like i am crazy and FXO isn't 1-2 second faster itself in the class [talking about medium+ level of drivers] :/

Your point appears to be that the "average" driver can drive the FXO to say 85% of it's potential with little practise, the XRT to 80% and the RB4 to 75% (these are just example values, not real %). If that is the case, and the cars are actually balanced then there's nothing for us to do. It's the drivers that need to get better with the cars, and perhaps there should be different points rewards for that, but not restrictions.

I don't know why I ended up reading this thread but since if affects everyone in the server (and I was there myself a few times) I would like to tell my experience.

In a recent TBO league FXOs had 24kg ballast, and it worked like a charm. Top XRT and RB4 drivers could match top FXO drivers and I, being an average XRT driver, had something to fight with other than endless XRTs and RB4s.

FXOs were somehow a bit faster in the first laps, but things were equal in no time and at the final laps we could even go a bit faster than those who couldn't look after their tyres. Races were around 40min long by the way.

I don't know how things are now on patch Z, but on Y that extra 24kg was spot on.

Quote from Christofire :

Your point appears to be that the "average" driver can drive the FXO to say 85% of it's potential with little practise, the XRT to 80% and the RB4 to 75% (these are just example values, not real %). If that is the case, and the cars are actually balanced then there's nothing for us to do. It's the drivers that need to get better with the cars, and perhaps there should be different points rewards for that, but not restrictions.

I can't agree more with this. I would rate myself as a fairly mediocre racer who scores his points due to consistency and cleanlyness rather than raw pace. and I just pick the car that suits my driving style (or my way of setting up a car). My current favorites for race 2 and 3 are respectively the RB4 and XRR. None of these are considered as the quickest ones but I am not faster in any other at the moment so I might aswell enjoy the ride.

Yesterday i finally tried and checked what is FXO myself, in racing on SO 1 [track that doesn't really suits this car's advantages. But it was so hilarious to get out of the corners [to straight] and fly away from others Then i took the XRT, and found out that it has potencial on this track.
When track changed to Aston 2, FXO drivers did from 1.12.30 times, and XRT/RB4 had 1.13 [best drivers] and 1.14 most laps.
What i am talking - i agree, that FXO is NOT very fast in the class, it's just a BIT faster.
So the 3% restriction of power [or as people said above - some 24 kg ballast would make the job].

I don't think we really need restrictions to be honest, but diffirent points distribution is a very good idea. I actually thought it already was like that (and like in CTRA 1 where, though cars are balanced, XRG is rewarded more), so I think it should alter the grids.

I myself was tempted to start using FXO (again) a few times already, I'm always up for realism, in both driving and setup, (thats why I use G25 at 720* and shifter) so I took off the Locked diff off FXO from the start and altered the set a bit to correspond. With locked diff I was a bit faster than my usual pace in XRT really quick, but with LSD and sensible camber times were very similiar. FXO is a good car, but it was so dull and boring to drive that it destroyed my wish to start using FXo immediatly.
So the conclusion for me is, that cars are more or less balanced on moderate length races, there isn't a need for restrictions, It might get the servers empty again, while altering points system for TBO should be a good decision for all parties
Just my 2c

I have to say "Thank You" for making this server TBO only again and for the really good/clean driving of you folks on CTRA2

Last few days I had some very good and most times also very clean races.
I was really astonished, that it was possible to do T1 on KY2 or even chicane on SO1r with more than 20 cars and no crash. In almost all league races I had so far there were allways some ppl not braking in time and causing pile ups. That was rarely seen on CTRA2. Even in ongoing races alot drivers reacted to yellow flags and slow down/brake instead of ramming through the "obstacles". If we could enforce more ppl to that behavior it would be great.

Thx to CTRA Team and all TBO racers on CTRA 2

Quote from SamH :

I guess all these questions could be entirely put to bed if LFS made a review of the class balancing in TBO.

That would be nice.

Quote from [RF]-art555 :

I myself was tempted to start using FXO (again) a few times already, I'm always up for realism, in both driving and setup, (thats why I use G25 at 720* and shifter) so I took off the Locked diff off FXO from the start and altered the set a bit to correspond. With locked diff I was a bit faster than my usual pace in XRT really quick, but with LSD and sensible camber times were very similiar. FXO is a good car, but it was so dull and boring to drive that it destroyed my wish to start using FXo immediatly.

That's a good point. I mentioned in my other post here about FXO advantages and the way the slow boost hurts cars that drive the rear wheels. But the locked diff is also an issue. When you remove the locked diff from the FXO (i.e. give it a realistic setup), it handles like you expect a fwd to handle: go overboard on the gas and it ploughs straight on. This hurts the laptimes and provides a limitation to the corner (and corner exit) speed in the way the other two have.

Maybe the issue is the unrealistic setups we're allowed? This is on the basis that a locked diff fwd would be bloody undriveable, which I've always understood to be the case.

Been reading the thread for a while and now would like to give my opinion

I must say I agree with the FXO robbery without restriction... Really, perhaps not such thing, but yes, current LFS balance system for the TBO class is wrong. Think about GTR class, most leagues racing the class has FZR with 15kg ballast, and its quite competitive with that ammount. Why the FXO shouldnt be the FZR in the TBO's?

I agree that FXO its good for entry level at the class, its more foregiving and therefore gives the novice the possibility to learn and be competitive, but after racing, lets say 10 races on CTRA2... It made me sick, its not real that even making mistakes, FXO drivers get faster laps times than any XRT or RB4 on the server.

Something must be done ppl, its not about the points 'cos actually XRT or RB4 are receiving far more points than FXO, but for the spirit of the races...nowadays its clearly a Ferrari-Toro Rosso challenge, guess which F1 team represents each LFS car

I consider myself fairly competitive in most combos, but I know Im not the STIG, all I would like to see is something more attractive, more balanced, more interesting.

A few minutes ago, I went on LFS World, and I saw that the WR gaps between LX4 and the TBO are quite close, and now I have an idea : why can't we allow LX4 to drive on the CTRA 2? Yes,LX4 is clearly faster in some tracks, but since it is quite dificult to drive, it can be a good opponent to the FXO.

@GreyBull [CHA]
It's never been done because first of all cars shapes are too different, then LX4 is separated class of TBO, no matter how close times are and they are usually faster, and it's never been done, so I think it won't be ever be done ether.