w00t.
I'm not keen on Christianity overall, but as long as your a "proper" Christian (i.e. you can question your faith etc rather than going to church every week since you were young so you must be Christian) then I don't mind.
w00t.
I'm not keen on Christianity overall, but as long as your a "proper" Christian (i.e. you can question your faith etc rather than going to church every week since you were young so you must be Christian) then I don't mind.
Jesus himself said that religion is a personal thing and should be practises in private In the sanctity of your own home.
That's a fairly compelling argument not just to not go to church but to abolish organised religion.
Personaly I would add that religion is an adult decision and should be illegal for under 18s to practice, end indoctrination practices and the world would be a better place.
That's a fairly compelling argument not just to not go to church but to abolish organised religion.
Personaly I would add that religion is an adult decision and should be illegal for under 18s to practice, end indoctrination practices and the world would be a better place.
Imo you're so wrong, humans are humans nomatter the age, humans have the rights to choose whatever they do. life's a free roll do what your abillities can. theres no need for peoble telling you dont do this and that because obviously your gonna do it at some point.
Religion is free do it or not do it. do it part-time.
Jesus preached against vain public displays of faith, because some Rabbis of his time would pray long and loud basically to show off how pious they were, instead of worshipping sincerely.
Jesus never condemned organised religion, as far as I'm aware. I'd be interested to see the Biblical scripture where he clearly tells us to abolish organised religion.
In fact, it was Jesus' own disciples who organised the early church and spread it far and wide. If there was no organisation, then anyone could put stupid spins on the Christian faith and pass it off as Christianity when it is not.
My only opposition to institutionalised religion - in this case, churches - are the ones that are so wrapped in money and prestige that people within it are seemingly held in greater importance than God himself.
Illegal to practice religion? That sounds terribly like the old ban on religion in the Soviet Union.
What indoctrination are you talking about? Christian belief? If so, what is so evil about Christianity (the faith, not the institutionalisation or its history) that the world would be better off if it was ended? Keep in mind that many of the individual rights, moral values, and laws which the citizens of western democratic world take for granted, are deeply rooted in Christianity. "Love thy neighbour" is both Biblical teaching, but also a long-established legal principle (see Donoghue v Stevenson) in common-law countries like the UK and US, and the US Bill of Rights was inspired by Christian teachings.
Personally, I don't like thought police. Religion should be freely practicable, just as children are free to learn about maths and science, geography, or their family genealogy.
It's still quite big decision that your parents make for you without having your opinion. It's not your decision, it is decided for you, where's the freedom in that?
And how do you do that part-time thing anyway?
EDIT: I totally agree with becky, religion should be a choise you can only make once you turn 18. One big part of religion is to be taught into it and learning the stuff as habbits instead of truly believing in the stuff.
If you are a proper christian you still need to believe that earth is flat, sun is orbiting earth and woman was made of man's ribbon (or something like that) - other than that, you are just cherry picking the easy and convenient stuff
Most of the people who believe in some kind of religion (not just Christianity) were brought up that way by their parents and were teached to believe and worship since they were infant. You can´t choose until you´re old enough to make your own decisions. That´s why in principle I agree with Becky. Although 18 sounds a bit too harsh, maybe 10 or so. I´m also sure that it won´t happen in the near future so this discussion is a bit pointless.
The Christian church is as bad and evil as most other religions when it comes to getting their grubby mits on Children who dont know better - all religions work on the principle of getting them in young and giving them their own world view before anybody else does... Thus ensuring you are free to chose whatever world view you want, based on the indoctrination you had before you even learned how to speak. This is immoral, in my world view. Not that i'm trying to impose my view on anyone, i'm just saying that's what I think as it was rellevent to the points in this post by a Christian.
Well so far this century: Iraq; and Afghanistan. Both religious wars brought about by two intensely religious world leaders and packaged to us in a more pallatable form as a war for oil, or was it to defend ourselves against being Muslims? I forget now, but I cannot see how the wars in the Middle East are anything other than a religious crusade.
I hold more or less Christian values, I have grown up in a Christian country, and i'm not saying the Christian church is in itself evil. In fact i'm open to religion personally - I accept that there is a chance that there is a God.
I just dont think any that exists God has forgotten to leave evidence on Earth without a reason, and it surely wasnt for us to fight over Abraham's Children... I figure i'll find out in good time when God wants to show himself to me/us. Until then I shall avoid any human interpretation of the stories of Abraham as history can already teach me that the particular denominations didn't come about by the word of God, but Human thirst for power.
The Mormon bible was written by Jeremia Smith by doing a literal translation of an early Greek bible with the aid of a dictionary. Jeremia did not speak Greek.
The King James bible was written with power motivations in mind, in fact the second word of Genesis is a mis-translation, "In the beginning" should read "In a beginning". That one kinda changes the whole concept of the bible doesnt it? ;p
The new testament was a completely contrived bible decided by the Roman senate based on what they liked the sound of and what they didn't. If you are going to practice Christianity you should get yourself of a version of the bible with the Apocrapher in it - incidentally, you're in a big problem understanding the even greater quantity of contradictions.
In short I see religion as a purely human invention, i'll make my peace with God in my own way. I believe that the only thing to come out of a regime that indoctrinates the young is a zealout, and by all accounts history shows zealouts are frequently evil.
I can't be arsed to fight for the abolition of church schools, if you want to damage yourself and your offspring that's for you to figure out, but if you quetion my opinion on it and try to convert me i'm affraid you are in for a rough ride. I think anyone dumb enough to hand money over to a human to forgive their sins. Sorry I mean to believe in an organised religion, should be shot to save the gene pool from being polluted. I just dont care enough about how you screw your lives up to pull the trigger myself.
The thing is, a lot of people are brought up in Christian families, and are not Christian anyway. No one is forcing anyone to keep being a Christian after they turn 18 years of age. The days of the Spanish Inquisition are long gone.
One of the reasons why religion exists, is to establish a framework of moral conduct. Some religions have become dominant over some others. Personally, I'm glad that the society I'm living in doesn't have men from each tribe slaughtering another tribe to steal their women, or sacrificing infants in volcanic craters.
I subscribe to the belief that governments should be totally secular, but its moral conduct should be guided by religions practised by its citizens (including non-religions, like atheism).
I think your focus of discontent is directed at the wrong thing. If Iraq and Afghan wars are religious, you should be taking out your anger at the leaders who made it so.
I seriously doubt at US Marines in Fallujah are waving Bibles and threatening people with shouts of, "Repent or I'll shoot!".
The wars may be for oil (although none are to be found in Afghanistan), but they are not crusades in the fashion of the crusades many centuries ago.In fact, if I were you, I'd be more angered at the extremist clerics trying to turn their own religious power-mongering into some kind of patriotic struggle. The ones in Iraq are using US and other "Coalition" troops as bait for their own desire for power, masking it with the veil of religious piety and patriotic call to arms. That to me, is disgusting.
Interesting comment. Although I'm no fan of institutionalised churches, I know enough about history and civil rights to know that much of the freedoms we take for granted have come about because of religious influences. That is not indoctrination - I didn't become a Christian until I was an adult, and am a heavy sceptic.
When I was young, I was taught Christianity as a FACT by my parents. I was taken to Sunday School where I was taught it as a FACT. I was never asked if I WANTED to be Christian, they just taught me the "truth" and as I was young I listened and believed - they basically brainwashed me into believing something...
That's not faith, that's not belief - that's just cruel. So many people have been brought up like me but never actually challenged their religion and are "die hard Christians" simply because from a young age they were told it as fact. Only when I was about 10-11 did I actually start to question Christianity, and realised that (to me, at least) it was ludicrous.
Living next to a chapel didn't help either!
EDIT - Young people are impressionable. The Hitler Youth was "evil" as it brainwashed people with a idol they adored. But indoctrinating kids? That's fine!
I hold equal abhoration for all the children of Abraham. (EDIT: This referrs to the Abrahamic religions, not people of Middle Eastern descent as questioned later in this thread.)
Your counter point isnt addressing the issue, and is unsubstantiated. I may hold a dim view of church schools and their protege/zealouts/fanatics, and I may think that their opinions on anything important should - as a matter of principle - be ignored. I dont understand how my freedom to think that was brought about by indoctrination of young children into extremist practices.
My freedoms are the result of social development, social concepts usually start out small before accepting widespread acceptance because the idea has to start somewhere - historically clergy are usually the last to react to social trends.
Let's not also forget that if I had stuck with Christianity as I was tought to do in summer school, sunday school, and twice weekly visits to Church I would have been taught that I am a wrongful sinner. I would have been taught that my sexuality is an afront. So by being true to myself i'd be turning my back on God. I would have been taught this because when religion was contrived it was done so when women didnt have rights. When the King James bible was "interpreted" it was done so by British gentry who where stuffy and didnt like gays. I would not have been taught this because it was the word of God, if God sent a memo out on homosexuality it seems that it was somewhere lost or ignored.
The power hungry have used religion and warped it into something to be used for their own gain. The religions practiced today do not represent the original message, and religions have become far too encompassing to reach well beyond a moral code, but instead act as a complete guide to all their faithful.
And I use the word faithful in a negative context.
As I said before I accept that there may be 1 or more Gods - but to select a belief system to worship one without evidence is a "leap of faith". Why one would make a leap of faith remains a mystery to me, it is irrational.
Christians worrying about if they're good enough.. partly in fear of ending up in hell. So basically you won't know if you've been good enough until your time has come... 
.. Christianity is at the end selfish. Trying to do good so you score heaven points. Yet I know of believers who still doubted and where in fear on their deathbeds.
In many ways Christianity is a 70 .. 90 year cliffhanger!
.. Christianity is at the end selfish. Trying to do good so you score heaven points. Yet I know of believers who still doubted and where in fear on their deathbeds. In many ways Christianity is a 70 .. 90 year cliffhanger!
They should have read the bible then, it says the only sin that cannot be forgiven is not believing in God.
They are scared of death, simple as that really. 
im glad your not taking me for being christian because i really aint anything 
Just taking up opinions and such, but such rules is lame in my opinion..
Just taking up opinions and such, but such rules is lame in my opinion..
First ask yourself ¿What is being a good christian?
I was educated myself in Christianity by my family, but soon I began to put some distance when I saw no one respected the fundamental precepts, when I was 10 I turned into a hard atheist that despised every kind of religion.
It's plain ridiculous seeing how religious talk about moral things when they don't follow them. The church taught me about loving your equals and not judging them, and about forgiving its mistakes. And what do I see? Exactly the opposite, hate the different, judge and criminalize them, resentment and vengeance. And they call Christians themselves? Pffff
The answer is plain clear, You don't need to go to church to be a good christian because Christ didn't say anything about going to church, religion and faith is something personal.
If you write something like this maybe you'll get some problems in the CS, but hey, it's as true as the sun.
Relgion does'nt cause wars, war is normally casued by complete ****s who use relgion to validate their hate of another race/nation/person. And at the end of the day, the reason for most wars is either an ego trip for a power hunger dictator of money.
In fact maybe I was'nt excatly correct in the above statement, if we consider money to be a relgion
Oh that depends on the exact religion, there are those who really overcomplicate things and make it harder and less secure.. I don't get it, IF you're going to get into a religion, get in one where success is guaranteed!
Are you saying you abhor all people of Middle Eastern descent?
Isn't ethnic hatred what brought about the Holocaust, the Crusades, and other evils?
What is your issue? In your previous posts, you seem to mix people's interpretation of religion (Christianity, to be more specific), with the actual religion itself. Is your issue the interpretation of religion by people and leaders of the beliefs, or the actual religion?
Actually it isn't. I'm not a history teacher and have no wish to try to be one on an internet forum. However it is generally undisputed that human rights and modern legal principles in western democratic societies are greatly influenced by Christian idealogy.
As just one example among many, the first two paragraphs of the US Declaration of Indepence:
When in the course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Martin Luther King Jnr actually used the second paragraph in his famous "I have a dream" speech. Interesting that he, one of the great icons of modern civil rights, was a Christian minister.
Your freedom is brought about by the correct interpretation of religious teachings in the spirit of their meaning, not the extremist version or by forced indoctrination.
Do not confuse the real meaning of what Jesus intended us to learn, with the corrupt, extremist or politicised versions of those teachings. The two are vastly different.
Only because in places like Europe, to speak against the status quo - the status quo being the Catholic Church in older times - meant almost certain persecution.
History records quite a number clergy who spoke out against societal norms of their time, and were either ex-communicated or simply executed for their "heresay".
Homosexual Christians reconcile themselves with Christianity quite alright. Some are actually high-ranking clergy. Plenty of women are Christians also.
Jesus Christ - to my knowledge - never taught to shun gays or treat women like dirt. In fact, the Bible narrates him as kindly to whoever followed him - men and women. There is unfortunately no mention of gays or lesbians, however I doubt Jesus would have treated them any differently to heterosexuals. Because one of the keystones of Jesus' teaching is to "Love your neighbour as yourself." If a Christian truly believes in God and in Jesus Christ, then it would be wrong to treat anyone with hatred or indifference - least of all for their sexual orientation.
If a moral code was not all-encompassing, then it would be ineffective.
I do agree that the power hungry have used religion and warped it into something to be used for their own gain. However, the religion itself is not to blame for that. That's like blaming a car for running over someone, rather than its driver.
If God was not mysterious, and kept Himself that way, then we'd have no need for God. We would be gods ourselves.
I think I understand your point of view, but also still think that you're misdirecting your anger at religion. You seem to me, to be unhappy at man's treatment of religious beliefs and lumping it together with religion. The two should be treated separately, in my opinion. The fact that 1 + 1 = 2 can exist on its own without anyone believing in it. Same with the "facts" of any religious ideology. The people are who put it into action, but what the people do wrong with it should not be cause for anger at the "facts" itself.
Judas was gay, he kissed a dude.
They cheek kiss eachother in some places i think, french politicans is gay then? i dont think so..
*sigh* I'm going to assume you are Christian for the moment, I dont care if you are or not, but this is a common misconception of Christian thinking: The Christian denominations really should teach their zealouts how their religion came about, where the stories where sourced from, and how they have been modified to suite changing social ideals over the centuries. Without this education in how the faith came to exist in its current form you are ill equipped to identify just how little the bible represents the original message. Sadly it is not in the churches interest to admit the bible is an entirely human contrived interpretation, so the fanatics remain dim to just how they've been misguided.
Not at all. My argument all along is that to be a "good christian" you should revolt against organised religion and practice your religious beliefs at a personal level - and absolutely not by "following" a particular denomination.
and
As I said myself i'm from a Christian country and hold more or less Christian values, but my views on why the devout are misguided where hardly given to me by a Priest. For Christianity to take credit for anything I then do purely because I come from a Christian country is just absurd. This is an invalid argument.
The clergy / the pope / the archbishop of canturbury etc. These are the people who define social change from a religious perspective. They are suprisingly innert. The current state of the Anglican church over women priests and gay priests being a prime example of what happens when they try and effect social change. Social change has to occur at the ground level and work it's way up - that's the way the world works.
Tell that to the Anglican church...
Should I spread my butter with the same knife I used to cut the bread, this would be more environmentally sound. In the emerging religion of Environmentalism that's taking hold in the West of late don't be suprised if this becomes a sacred message from God handed down on a stone plaque and in 5 centuries time people carry bread knives on the street as a religious trinket resulting in a spate of seration related knife crimes... Religion should be kept within it's scope - for Christians this is the 10 commandments. It should not be arguing over the fine details like whether a Bishop can be Gay and a good Christian.
And so organised religion has become an evil institution, time for it to go, no?
Not believing in God does not make me God of my own destiny.
I think what you actually meant to say was, "If proof in God was needed, then we'd have no way of delluding the masses to follow our human contrived religion which we've chopped and changed over the centuries to reach a point where it no longer resembles the original message.".
Organised religion is evil. Paying homage to organised religion is an exercise in self dellusion. If you truly believe in God and his teachings, then do it in your own space, in your own time, and in your own way. Don't let the opinions of others - like my own and those of the Pope - in any way influence the course of your lives, else you become a puppet to a regime and a tool of an evil regime.
Be smart, have some sense, don't get sucked in to a Human power struggle. Your virtues are far too important to allow yourself to be blinkered by the powerful.
Indeed - which would explain Guantanamo Bay.
Digging a little deeper you might find that a lot of those freedoms and civil rights have come from the fight to separate the legal system from religious influences. But yes, if seen in a round-about way, religious influences are indeed behind them.
..Uh.. that is exactly what is happening. Good job it was organized.
That's a pretty pious statement. You insinuate that these laws did not exist until Christianity? "Though shalt not kill," along with most of the other core teachings, are not unique to Christianity, and existed centuries before some nut-case pretended to be the son of God, and before "God" appeared as a burning bush. They are not unique to Christianity, and as such these laws in modern societies can not be attributed to Christianity, they go back far, far further. On the same vein, all major religions have the exact same core teachings of humanity, which existed long before organized religion ever did. Similarly, all major religions have seemed to have forgotten those core beliefs.
I'm a level-headed guy, generally, but statements like that just piss me off. That is just a completely ill-informed view.
owned
I don't want to say that's ok. On the other hand, I was taught Darwin's theory as a fact by my parents and school. I was taken to basic school where I was taught it as a fact. I was never asked if I wanted to be atheist... all other theories were just wrong answers in tests, nothing more.
You dont need to go to church to be a good christian
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