i'd say he did that dive the same way the blue cat did it in the lap before.

The white car despite being faster did not have enough overlap at the turn in to be awarded room thoug the corner. The Blue 7's rear tire hit the White 7's front, clearly less then 50% overlap was achieved. This was entirely the fault of the White 7 though if the Blue 7 had ben paying mre attention he could have left room easily. It was a pissing match, and the White 7 had better postition to come out of it ahead of contact was made. It was and he did. Dirty, dirty, dirty.

Followed by a Cardiff bus driver. 'Dem guys are nuts . . .

Quote from Gimpster :

The white car despite being faster did not have enough overlap at the turn in to be awarded room thoug the corner. The Blue 7's rear tire hit the White 7's front, clearly less then 50% overlap was achieved. This was entirely the fault of the White 7 though if the Blue 7 had ben paying mre attention he could have left room easily. It was a pissing match, and the White 7 had better postition to come out of it ahead of contact was made. It was and he did. Dirty, dirty, dirty.

I think there is enough overlap if the front tire of the other car next to the other's rear tire. Also in that situation there was enough overlap just before the blue car turned into the corner. It was an odd move by the blue one to drive so left before the incident. The other car was almost next to his bumper and defenately the blue one should had though that the line he chose created a situation for the white to try a pass.

Still a risky move. Almost dirty But within rules.

Within which rules exactly?

Quote from Barroso :

i'd say he did that dive the same way the blue cat did it in the lap before.

lol ur right the blue car did the same thing the lap before but the white car gave him room. i guess he thought the blue driver would return the favor.

Quote from Gunn :

Within which rules exactly?

Well, as I see it you have the right to try a pass until the other one starts turning into the corner or makes a blocking move. (The corner rights.)

The other car didn't do neither of these things. Of course he had the right to drive the left side of the track at that point but it was obvious that such driving line leaves a possiblity for passing for the other car. Also he turned into the corner later than the best racing line would...

The whole situation reminds me a lot from some accidents seen in LFS. Passing under blue flag. The other car A (who has the blue flag) drives like the blue one did in that vid. The A chooses the outer line into the corner and at the same time gives the hint of "make a pass, I'll stay here" to the driver who then attempts the pass. Suddenly the A turns into the corner and there is the accident. They both had the equal right for the corner but the body languahe of the A doesn't match with his intentions/actions.

Result is usually a new thread on LFSforums

Still imho he had the right to attempt that pass though it was a risky move.

I saw no "hint" in the blue car's drivers behaviour. He drove a pretty normal line for his driving. In all corners he stayed out a bit too long and this corner wasn't unusual at all.
Definitely the white car's driver's fault. Actually I would beat him to a bulp for ruining my car with such a stupid attack of bad driving.

Vain

Anyone who thinks this move was on, should go back to that GPL driving advice page and read up on the 'false overlap' phenomenon. He had only just acheived a slight overlap by the apex, which means he was nowhere near at the turn in point.
And maybe I'm just being daft, but I thought the standard way to approach a right hand bend was by staying to the left until the turn in point.
Watching it over a few times, it looks like the blue car was aiming for a late apex to get a good run onto the following straight. The white car was taking such an early turn-in point and early apex, there was no chance that he wouldnt hit the other car on the way out of the corner.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I think there is enough overlap if the front tire of the other car next to the other's rear tire. Also in that situation there was enough overlap just before the blue car turned into the corner. It was an odd move by the blue one to drive so left before the incident. The other car was almost next to his bumper and defenately the blue one should had though that the line he chose created a situation for the white to try a pass.

Still a risky move. Almost dirty But within rules.

I'm starting to wonder if my understanding of racing terminology is up to par.Both you and Gimpster (although you disagree on everything else) seems to agree that the turn in point is immediately before, or at the point of contact?

That's the turn-in point?

I was looking at this
again, and the situation he describes there seems quite similar to the one in the video imho ( look in the 'corner rights' section, the illustration there).

Anyway, my new perspective on turn-in points gave rise to some thoughts about how such a situation might unfold in LFS.So let me present:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Battle of Turn-In & Tyrion.

Driving along an imaginary track, Turn-In and Tyrion battle for the lead.Turn-In is ahead for the moment, but only by a car length.They approach the next corner.

Turn-In looks in the mirrors.
Hm, a good car length behind.I should be in the clear, unless he is privy to the real meaning of turn-in points.No, he can’t be.

Tyrion sees Turn-In is still a car length in front.
Hmm, normally I would never attempt a pass in this situation, but now that I have obtained the secret knowledge of the true turn-in points, things are a little different.I will brake late, and dive in on the inside.When we reach the true turn-in point I will have achieved sufficient overlap to justify my actions.Haha, I’m a racing genious!

*crash* *clonk* *screech*
As the cars make contact, Turn-In's car spins out of control and off the track.Tyrion continues unaffected.

Turn-In: WTF??
Tyrion: Bwahaha
Turn-In: Wtf are you doing moron, you didn’t have corner rights!!
Tyrion: omg noob? I SO can't believe you just said that.There was sufficient overlap at turn-in point! Hahaha, noob
Turn-In: What are you smoking? Ffs
/Turn-In disconnects

Unable to contain his laughter any longer, Tyrion erupts .

Tyrion: Bwahahahaha…Muahahaha..ah…ah..Ahahahaha!

And thus ends the battle of Turn-In & Tyrion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


:nol2:

.....you forgot about the ban vote which Turn-In started.....

I always thought the front driver has right to the racingline, unless u have more then half a car overlap during the braking zone. (so your front wheels are past his front door)
So in this case the white car is clearly at fault..just like anyone in LFS would be when trying a pass, if he barely overlaps the other guys back wheels.
Thats a recipe for disaster, even when passing a lapped car. It is the passing drivers responibility to make a clean pass. Imho that doesnt include diving down the blindspot in mirrors and expecting the other guy to smell your car and give way.
Not beside him in the brakingzone => he has right to the apex..and 9/10 will turn into u, so better brake a bit more and try that pass later on.

Quote from Gabkicks :

lol ur right the blue car did the same thing the lap before but the white car gave him room. i guess he thought the blue driver would return the favor.

But in that situation the Blue car wasen't a car length behind

100% agree with Noccy

It's not always something that can be reduced to 'rules'. There are grey areas, there is politeness and sportsmanship (or lack of) to consider, not just your own but the likely behaviour of your oponent.

Braking so late as to achieve sufficient overlap by the turn in point is not acceptable if the braking was so late that he wasn't going to make the corner or if the driver being passed risks being hit even if he gives room. If you are going to go for the pass you should always ensure (or try to) that you can slow down and take a safe line, staying totally to the inside out of the corner and only moving across the track if you have a sufficient lead (i.e. you can squeeze but not shove).

In the video it's quite obvious that the blue driver isn't as polished as the white driver or is struggling with a bad car. His line into the collision corner wasn't quite like the previous lap but he had sufficient lead at that point, bearing in mind they were fairly equal under braking, to assume the corner was his. You can't ALWAYS be looking in your mirror.

The white car almost certainly knew it was a risky maneuver, tell-taled by his larger than normal corner cutting to try and make it through the gap he saw was disappearing. Bearing in mind he was obviously faster it was only a matter of time before he got passed, and barging wasn't necessary. However, if it was the last lap of the race (as has been suggested) then the blue car should expect more 'do or die' moves on him, and therefore could be considered at fault for being asleep, and doing a Jarno (or Rubens, from Monaco last year).

I don't think there is a specific RULE that says he was wrong to attempt it, but there are racing standards, some of which are unwritten, that make moves like that less than welcome.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Bearing in mind he was obviously faster it was only a matter of time before he got passed, and barging wasn't necessary.

Nah. If the slower driver defends his lines well, you can't expect to get by even if you are significantly faster. I've experienced this many times, both as the faster car and the slow guy in front

Quote from tristancliffe :

However, if it was the last lap of the race (as has been suggested) then the blue car should expect more 'do or die' moves on him, and therefore could be considered at fault for being asleep, and doing a Jarno (or Rubens, from Monaco last year).

The last lap or not, you cannot pull a move like that and there is no way you could possible put the blame on a driver in front for 'not expecting a kamikaze move' just because it's the last lap!




Besides the crash in the end, it's a very nice video of how two race-setup caterhams behave when driven on the limit. Thanks for sharing

After all it wasn't smart move by the white. A risky move but imho it was acceptable in a way. But not worth it obviously

Hyperactive..i dont mean to flame u

But keep that in mind when some lunatic rams u off the track, then says :hey i overlapped your back wheels..i had right of way u noob.

I would definatly not call that an acceptable move..if he pulled it off without contact..no problem , but there clearly was not enough room for that.
If u look closely u can see he is behind! the blue car at the turn-in point and barely overlaps the rearwheels at the apex.

It is a situation that happens often ,both in RL and LFS..but that doesnt make it a valid passing move.

the fast drivers use tactics like that all the time in lfs. its strange to see people here saying that when i see it all the time in lfs. I dont see it as dirty to dive in like that as long as you hold the inside or outside line and the other driver doesnt attempt to block. Like hyperactive said the other car didnt really attempt to block he just turned in as well. It was a desperate move by the white car but most people in LFS drive pretty desperately .

err...no, most people in public servers drive like they are the only ones on the track with scant regard for anyone else, let alone any "rules".

Dan,

lol. should i bust out the replays of all the crazy passes i've had used on me and ones i've used myself? alot of well known people here use moves like that. I sorta considered the decent servers to be cleaner than most real life races.

infact i cant remember the last time i was in a situation like that and the other driver didnt try to pass me.

Watch some of these videos and then see what you think. I still think it was a racing incedent. Sure, the overlap was not there and it was probably an overly optomistic move, but we don't see everything from the view we had. Anyway, it is just my opinion, but after watching some of the videos on this site, I realize that these drivers can see so much more than we can on the video, that their situational awareness is much higher than what we have available.
Anyway, the videos on this site are outstanding to watch...

http://supervroum.noalia.net/chameau/spy/

If you do a search on google video for 'caterham knockhill' there's a little report alongside one of the other videos of that race. I think it seems to suggest stewards decided against the white car and deducted 12 seconds from his time unless that was another incident.

I agree that it was the white cars fault (well the driver...).

Quote from Noccy :

I always thought the front driver has right to the racingline, unless u have more then half a car overlap during the braking zone. (so your front wheels are past his front door)

Ok, I hear this BS every time and I'm really sick of it... There is no such thing as a "right" to a line... BOTH drivers have to take care and USE COMMON SENSE... You just can't shove another car off arguing with "I had the right to take this line cause you hadn't enough overlap..." It's just rude, stupid and damn risky... And it just provokes nitpicking like "Yeah, I had enough overlap, my bumper was 1 mm in front of your B-pillar!"

Bman, if there is no such thing as "right to the racingline"..then why do racers, not adhering to the rule i posted above, get penalties in 99% of the real leagues that run worldwide. In the above movie that last driver will almost always get a penalty..unlike the front driver, who wont ever be penalized.
Guess why?

Maybe in your vieuw the blue car should have gone offtrack and on the grass to make room for the other guy,even if he tried an impossible pass? illepall

Offcourse both drivers have to be carefull and always try to avoid accidents. But there ARE rules about it (they might differ slightly per league ..but each and everyone of them has rules about such stuff)
Same when someone tries a pass and u close the door on him..close the door too late and u are in fault, end of story.

Quote :

There is no such thing as a "right" to a line

say that to any steward at a trackday and he would call your words BS..not mine