Quote from Shotglass :

also i dont get why massa gave him that much room on the exit and even let hamilton push him off (god i hate those tarmac runoffs that allows these tits to get away with this kind of overtaking)
surely if he had forced hamilton tight on the exit he would have had a chance to go side by side and take the inside on the following left hander



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If there's wasn't tarmac run off Massa would have conceded much earlier because he would have been aware of the consequences of staying on the outside.

If you want to stay on the outside like a bandit you can fully expect to be squeezed wide onto the dirt!

Quote from Intrepid :

If there's wasn't tarmac run off Massa would have conceded much earlier because he would have been aware of the consequences of staying on the outside.

he had the nose ahead at the apex so he would have had evey chance to make clear that he will take a tight line at the exit forcing hamilton even tighter

Quote :

If you want to stay on the outside like a bandit you can fully expect to be squeezed wide onto the dirt!

thats your usual inside line = successful overtake nonsense again which is not proper racing but being afraid of getting some real opposition

Quote from J.B. :

Are you saying Massa moved to the left because he wanted to hand Hamilton P2? The reason he moved is because he didn't believe that Hamilton would be able to outbrake him and still make the corner, since he had to start braking on the very right of the track. And because he was scared that if he would brake on the right himself Hamilton might take him around the outside. Hamilton anticipated this and made the move work perfectly.

I didn't say he wanted to hand Hamilton P2, I just said that he did. Whatever Massa's reason for moving left was, it was the wrong move and it gifted Hamilton the position.

Hell, Hamilton himself has even said that Massa defended poorly;

"All I know is that if it was the other way around then he wouldn't have got past,"
"He didn't defend very well."
Source

Quote from Shotglass :

he had the nose ahead at the apex so he would have had evey chance to make clear that he will take a tight line at the exit forcing hamilton even tighter



thats your usual inside line = successful overtake nonsense again which is not proper racing but being afraid of getting some real opposition

OK Hamilton won the race you didn't, end of story! You can be a Mr Charity racer if you want but that will get you no further than your armchair.

I can't believe Intrepid still clings to that overtaking rationale.

lol he brought it up! I am just clarifying that it's not a philosophy any racer in their right mind would adopt if he actually intended on doing the important thing of.... winning races!

If a driver had his mentality in an F1 team he would be fired almost immediately!

You don't think a driver would also get fired for continually running into cars who are holding their line at corner exit?

no because not many idiots in real racing try and hold the outside line when being overtaken. It's not something commonly seen in real racing because there is the real threat of damage and injury. You concede and aim to retake the position at the next corner. You can stay there if you want but your gonna get squeezed by any race racer and 9 times out of ten end up in the grass. A driver will soon learn not to be such a bandit in this situation. That's the way it is... if it's too hot in the kitchen and all that....

Also the added element of being off line, and on the rubble makes it rare for you to have the grip to stick on the outside. Hence why LFS racing can be somewhat misleading to some people as to how reality works

Quote from Intrepid :

OK Hamilton won the race you didn't, end of story! You can be a Mr Charity racer if you want but that will get you no further than your armchair.

And where has being Mr Dickhead racer got you, exactly?

I see you're banned from quite a lot of LFS servers, don't know how your karting is going.

Well when I was a child I was EXACTLY the type of racer you seem to think is the proper way!!!! I was too pussy when it came to overtaking and racing! Hamilton was doing these MOVES ON ME when he was coming through the field. I admit I was just a PUSSY! That's why I didn't make it... I would try and hold the outside line and it was just dumb! Go on the grass race over.

I was THAT person once. By the time I learned the errors of my ways I was too old and too slow. You have to be Mr DickHead to win races!

I am banned from RedLine for no reason whatsoever other than calling an admin an idiot fior having a go at a driver who had done nothing wrong. CTRA banned me coz I fired someone... my mistake! lol

Quote from Intrepid :

no because not many idiots in real racing try and hold the outside line when being overtaken

Like Hamilton did at Spa last year? Hmm, and I recall him being very critical of Alonso for not leaving him room

lol thats was funny. Hamilton got done over there!!! he learnt his lesson though obviously!

Oh dear. You used the term Bandit. This term is only used by people in go-karting. It also makes anyone who uses it, along with 'Firing Off' sound like a complete muppet. As does 'Done over'.

Well then you are clearly not as integrated into the car racing community as you seem than tristan. Last time I spoke to some F Renault/F3/Euro F3 drivers it was a term used quite frequently.

You think once a karter moves to cars they take on a different vocabulary with the same contemporaries!!?

How come nobody else other than you and Will on this forum ever uses the term? How come I've never heard it mentioned despite knowing several FR/F3 teams? How come it's never mentioned on TV at any level?

I'm sure the drivers who get anywhere in motorsport don't use the term. Or if they do they never admit to it publically.

What Intrepid says about overtaking at the top level is, from what I can see, perfectly true. Drivers don't expect to be left any room by someone on the inside, and they don't concede an inch to a driver on the outside. It's rare that 2 cars will ever go into and out of a corner side by side in the dry.
Commentators regularly refer to drivers "getting themselves into trouble" by trying to hang on around the outside and getting squeezed or their nose pinched on the exit. They never place any blame at the feet of the driver on the inside unless it's a blatantly intentional hit.

I'm not disputing that. Nothing wrong with squeezing a driver on the exit - especially if there is a big tarmac run-off area to abort to. I don't think anyone would try quite the same tactic at, say, Monaco, because it's likely to backfire as the passed car rebounds into the passee.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I'm not disputing that. Nothing wrong with squeezing a driver on the exit - especially if there is a big tarmac run-off area to abort to. I don't think anyone would try quite the same tactic at, say, Monaco, because it's likely to backfire as the passed car rebounds into the passee.

It is massively rare on street circuits, and circuits where their is grass run-off for a driver to hang round the outside, and that's because it's a stupid thing to do and a quick way to end your race. Sinbad once again talks perfect sense.

Quote :

How come nobody else other than you and Will on this forum ever uses the term? How come I've never heard it mentioned despite knowing several FR/F3 teams? How come it's never mentioned on TV at any level?

I'm sure the drivers who get anywhere in motorsport don't use the term. Or if they do they never admit to it publically.

Then clearly your not speaking to the people i do

Perhaps I'm only speaking to the ones with a brain and talent?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Oh dear. You used the term Bandit. This term is only used by people in go-karting. It also makes anyone who uses it, along with 'Firing Off' sound like a complete muppet. As does 'Done over'.

You really have a bad attitude towards anyone with an opinion different to yours, you think your some kind of a superstar? where are you exactly? in any big races?

didn't think so, just someone who thinks he's smart and knows everything there is to know, well Hamilton is winning and he will win the championship, and when he does you can have a little cry and explain how 'lucky' he was.......

Quote from tristancliffe :

Perhaps I'm only speaking to the ones with a brain and talent?

I doubt that very much!

watching the replay, Massa's defense wasn't really "lame". He could not stop quicker than Lewis, and does not have better traction, so if he insist on staying in the absolute inside line he is sitting duck at the exit.

Maybe he could just keep a little less than a car width to the right, however i guess Lewis would see through it and outbrake him on the outside, so not much of a fight really.

i carnt see what all the fuss is about on this massa thing really.....

yea he made it a bit to easy ok granted, but he said his brakes had gone for a burton, now then if he holds the inside to take that corner he needs to slow the car down a lot faster and harder, as to get around the now tighter turn, he had no brakes!....

he knows what lewis is like on the brakes and the state of his own, he didnt have a chance to hold off lewis with the inside line.. if he had of done lewis would have just blitzed him on the outside...

what massa didn't do in my opinion was brake up hamiltons brake zone, basicly he pulled over way to soon, thats where i agree it was weak by massa, NOT that he had taken the left side, lewis would have spat him out there, if he had of held the right a little longer 2 things are possible....

1. lewis pulls left with extra speed and drafting boots (but massa intends on taking the left anyway) so massa automaticly blocks, then lewis either has to switch right again and gets out of shape and locks up or he has to get out of it quick..

2. lewis holds the right while massa waits till the last possible second to switch left, lewis is carrying a lot more speed and has passed his braking zone and locks up all the way to apex, then its down to a drag race off the apex but massa is carrying a lot more speed....

but i dont think massa made the wrong move going left, he really would have looked a fool if he stopped right and went for the tighter apex..

Quote from Intrepid :

I am banned from RedLine for no reason whatsoever other than calling an admin an idiot fior having a go at a driver who had done nothing wrong. CTRA banned me coz I fired someone... my mistake! lol

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