small exerpt from a link posted above


If you watch the odd few drivers in action you might think the rule for corner rights goes something like, " Whatever piece of ground I can barge my way into I have the right to ". Well, ... not so. There is actually an etiquette for corner rights. Its not just for racing sims, but is basically the same for every level of real-world motor racing - from Formula Ford to Formula 1 and everything in between. " What ! ", you say. " You mean I don't have the right to throw my car into any gap I see ? ". Actually no, you don't - and if you raced in any real-world competition the way you may race, instead of being hailed as a motor racing genius you may find yourself banned from even the lowest levels of the sport.

n brief, the concept is, you must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before a corner's turn-in point to have the right for room to be left for you by the ahead driver. Substantial overlap means at least that the front of your car is up to say the driver's position in the ahead car - and that's at the very least. You probably should have more in many circumstances. The ahead driver has ever right to be fully committed to the racing line of his choice without any interference if there was no overlap before he turned in.

Just to prove my point really..aka there ARE rules about passing and who has right to the racingline.

Please, before smart-assing me, read my posts, thanks... Because I stated before, that the white car driver was out of his mind to try to pass there, where it's just too obvious that he wouldn't achieve anything but a crash...

And I said, you don't have "the right" to take a line, you're taking (driving) a line right or false, but you don't have "a" right to take one... Try to understand that, there is a huge difference in it... If you can't, please ask anyone who can...

1. Not Enough Overlap At Turn-in To Corner
-the car in front has the right to take any line thru the corner at racing speed
-the car attempting a pass does not have the right to put any part of the car on the line the car in front is taking so that it causes the line of the car in front to change, or so that collision is imminent if the car in front does not back off

2. There Is Sufficient Overlap At Turn-in To Corner
-the car being passed must take either the inside or the outside line depending on which side s/he is on at the beginning of the turn, and has the right to take it unhindered
-the car making the pass has the right to take either the inside or outside line unhindered to attempt a clean pass

In (2) the car being passed may not push the passing car off the track at corner exit because 'he didn't make the pass stick'.

A good example of this was the last F1 GP where Coulthard was pushed wide. That was an illegal move and whoever else it was in that incident was penalised for the maneuvre.

Quote from Hallen :

Anyway, the videos on this site are outstanding to watch...

http://supervroum.noalia.net/chameau/spy/

.....amazing stuff.....really.....especially when you watch these guys starting bump-drafting like mad.....somehow I am not sure if I had the nuts to do something like that in real life

On the Topic......START USING COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!

....I think that should be sufficient

CU, Sebastian

"Ok, I hear this BS every time and I'm really sick of it... There is no such thing as a "right" to a line"

I'm sick of driver's who try and pass on the inside who are "WAY" behind at turn-in and find out they dont have the grip to carry it off and use my car to hold the inside line.

This issue goes to the heart of racing in LFS, If my opponent is even slightly ahead, and I'm on the inside,I pull over and get back on his tail, and begin the hunt again.

I expect him to use the raceline and act accordingly, yes there are grey areas but I drive with the "car infront has the line" mentality.

Worked for me since 1998




John

Quote from bbman :

you don't have "the right" to take a line

But you do, like pretty much everyone else is saying, a car reaching a corners turn-in point uncontested has the right to get thru that corner without giving any kind of consideration as to what the car behind him is doing.

Two cars reaching turn-in at about the same time has the right to the line they are currently holding, outside has outside, inside has inside, without interfering with the other one's line.

Purely common sense safety rules.

who usually decides who is at fault in real racing? its like a body of people i cant remember the name of though theres probably lots of them for each type of racing, usually you get some drivers fighting or arguing after an incident but i dont think they decide who was at fault do they? i would think that both drivers would have their own views on what happened and only a lot of people who have no bias can really decide those things. and are some just said to be a racing incident and noone is actually "to blame"?

or maybe i just watched too much touring cars

Overly optimistic manouvre of the guy in the white car, no doubt in my mind it's his mistake here. He wasn't next to the guy in front before turn in point, which is what I always see as the right to the racing line (and which is the official FIA rule as well, as far as I know!).

Great racing though!

Ok, then please copy this rule in here that says: "If a car is behind x inches of another car, it has to back off at the next corner" There simply is none, and that is for a reason... The driver of the car in front can't just do as he pleases, he might be right to do so, but he hasn't the right to take a specific line... He doesn't own it, he hasn't patented it, he drives it, that's all... BOTH drivers should take care, and yes of course, the driver behind has the moral obligation to back off, but what if he doesn't? Because as we all know, turning in on another driver, fully aware of his position at my side, is agreed to be WRECKING by all of us here... From this fact alone, you can see that there can't be anything like a right to drive a particular line, you just might be right to do it... Please notice the difference now...
I have never said that the car in front has to go wide, nor have I ever encouraged behavior like the one shown in the video... Common sense has to tell both drivers what to do, as every situation has to be evaluated individually... I just say that you can't put something complex as overtaking into one simple right (which is even false)...

Quote from bbman :

of course, the driver behind has the moral obligation to back off, but what if he doesn't?

Then the driver behind is guilty of causing a crash.

Vain

And you're out too, what point would you've made with that? Common sense again...

Contact should be avoided as far as possible and because someone has the right to take whatever line he chooses doesn't mean he shouldn't make space if the driver behind does something silly. Course, LFS not being RL one can "teach a lesson" by holding the line and letting the collision occur so that the passing driver notices what was wrong with that move

Hardly ethical, but neither is a silly overtaking move. Obviously it's a big deal in longer races but in your average 5-lapper it might just pay off in the long run.

I think I have to clarify this:
When you approach a normal crossing on a public road you may have the right to enter the crossing section because of the public rules. That doesn't mean you should do it when someone else violats your right and drives into the crossing without looking!
In a similar manner you can have the right to drive your racing-line on the track. Which doesn't mean you should do it when there is someone standing in the way.

The term "right of way" just determins who gets the penalty points when a crash occurs.

Vain

Quote :

but who is to blame at the end?

That was so the fault of the white car that I want to question the need to question it... You just wanted to show the video didn't you?

It's typical of Knockhill, it's so lacking in a strait you have to wonder if the layout was concieved during a magic roundabout episode.

I think they were both somewhat at fault for that and had certainly been asking for it with all the overdramatic slides.

I don't think there is a single set of rules in effect in a racing-series that would not expressively state that the white and only the white car is at fault here.
Except of course if there is a banger-racing-series.

Vain

Those slides appear to be the norm for those cars. Both drivers make the odd mistake, but I dont think you could rule, "They where both driving like boy racers and deserved to crash".

The white car is at fault here because the door was not closed - the blue car was taking racing line because the white car had not pulled "alongside", so he had no right to interfere with the blue cars line.

RACMSA, FIA and CIK all say the same thing about that one...

If you picture it in LFS terms, think of yourself as the blue car. You look in your mirrors on the approach to a corner and see someone behind in your mirrors, they do not get alongside - you take racing line but the other guy doesn't slow down enough and taps you around by clipping your rear corner.

One thing I have learned from LFS is that after the start you really need to look on your mirros because there is always some hotshot trying to pass you inside and in the process he brakes too late. Specially the first lefthander after AS nat for example. So it's like trying to stay away from bullet's path that is coming behind you

yeah on that turn for some reason even when i'm attacking i find i'm more successfull if i attack from the outside on the 1st turn if u mean the other left hander after that.. yeah that turn is tight but somehow we always manage to run sideby side through it. i just hug the inside and pray the other guy doesnt hit me.

I was talking about those who just brake way too late before the 2 slow corner section in the end of the longish straight after T1.

Some cool driving there but its gotta be the guy in the white. Hes way to far back to make a dive down the inside.

The blue one was 100% at fault. Let's face it: if you want interesting racing, there's only one rule: leave room for the other car. As iI have written many times: FIA rules are wrong and stupid (as are people leading FIA). There sjould be no bullshit about who's in fromnt at the corner entray, that's just justifiying bad drivers. It's easy: if 2 cars overlap (or even if the driver is not suzre that they do not overlap), or basicalkly if there's any doubt that there maybe could be somebody overlapping with your car, you should leave room - on the inside and on the outside (at the corner exit). Side by side raciunmg is only fun that way.

Um, you obviously speak as a viewer rather than a competitor.

The guy in front doesnt really care about 'interesting' racing, he cares about winning.

Quote from lucky :

FIA rules are wrong and stupid

1. I'm glad I won't ever meet you on the track.
2. If you ever finish a race successfully, you are truely honoring your name.

Vain

Quote from lucky :

The blue one was 100% at fault. Let's face it: if you want interesting racing, there's only one rule: leave room for the other car. As iI have written many times: FIA rules are wrong and stupid (as are people leading FIA). There sjould be no bullshit about who's in fromnt at the corner entray, that's just justifiying bad drivers. It's easy: if 2 cars overlap (or even if the driver is not suzre that they do not overlap), or basicalkly if there's any doubt that there maybe could be somebody overlapping with your car, you should leave room - on the inside and on the outside (at the corner exit). Side by side raciunmg is only fun that way.

Hahahaha, obviously never done any racing IRL then :pillepall

Dan,