I am pleased with the inclusion of tire, suspension and clutch damage. But I would like a few more to be added.

Brake pad overheating, fading and wearing (meter included, just like the clutch). Along with brake fluid boiling and then brake pedal becoming useless.

Tires actually coming off or tearing when the tires pop.

Having the driver shift into neutral before continuing into the next gear in stick shift manual cars. Having to double downshift or else comes the risk of the gears not meshing, the synchronization units wearing down, and the gears actually grinding and damaging. This is inspired by NASCAR Season 2003's shifting modeling.
^Or at least include synchronization unit wear so that people would have to learn to rev match trying to downshift for a corner.

Engine overheating, oil temperature rising, and water temperature rising, inadequate cooling situations. Like in GPL, NASCAR 2003 or GTL.

Rims morphing and tearing apart.

This is merely my humble suggestions, the devs can ignore this if they want, but I just think that this would make LFS much more realistic, much more challenging, closer to reality, and more educational as to the subject of performance driving.

we will have damage updates in the future patches,and im guessing that will be a start of something

I really want the gear box wear and damage. >_<

double downshift? do you mean double clutching? because thats only done when you upshift. For downshifts you have to blip the throttle, and you don't even have to use the clutch. Just release the throttle, put it in nutral, blip, and stick it in gear. If done right, it will just slide into gear, no syncros needed.

If you want to make it more realistic, just have gradual wear, there isn't much you can do to screw up a shift badly enough to break something.
you can do it, but its not as simple as screwing up a shift.

You usualy feel the grinding in the stick more than you hear it (at least in the cars I drove), and if it does grind, its not doing much damage unless you shift like a gorilla.

If you want realistic shifting, you need realistic shifters, that can prevent you from clicking it into gear if it doesn't line up, and unfortunately they don't have those yet.

Quote from DragonCommando :

double downshift? do you mean double clutching? because thats only done when you upshift. For downshifts you have to blip the throttle, and you don't even have to use the clutch. Just release the throttle, put it in nutral, blip, and stick it in gear. If done right, it will just slide into gear, no syncros needed.

If you want to make it more realistic, just have gradual wear, there isn't much you can do to screw up a shift badly enough to break something.
you can do it, but its not as simple as screwing up a shift.

You usualy feel the grinding in the stick more than you hear it (at least in the cars I drove), and if it does grind, its not doing much damage unless you shift like a gorilla.

If you want realistic shifting, you need realistic shifters, that can prevent you from clicking it into gear if it doesn't line up, and unfortunately they don't have those yet.

WHAT?! double shift going up?! do you even drive? For example, when I want to go from 3rd-2nd gear in endurance driving, I would double shift so that the synchronization units don't wear out as much trying to speed up the input gear and matching the revs. You let the speed of the input gear DROP to upshift. But yes, you are correct about not needing to use the clutch. Though, what does that have to do with anything I was saying? I was talking about the gearbox, not the clutch.

You can double clutch on upshifts and heel n toe double declutch on downshifts. kthxbai.

You can double clutch in both situations.

Nobody double declutches on upshifts - you'd lose too much time. H&T and Double Declutching are primarily downshifting techniques; you CAN use them for upshifts, but only a total nonce would.

I thought double clutching was done to spool up a turbo...

I wouldn't know, I don't drive a turbo, nor do I run on the track so I've never had the reason for double clutching, heel-toe, etc...

Quote from evilpimp :

You can double clutch on upshifts and heel n toe double declutch on downshifts. kthxbai.

You can double clutch in both situations.

You don't need to speed the input gears up during an upshift. You DO need to speed the input gears up for a downshift. On an upshift, you let the input gears SLOW DOWN, so double shifting on an upshift would only hurt your synchronization units more.

and @ mrrodgers, there is no resistance when you rev the engine in "neutral gear", so, it would not do much for your boost pressure. There is something called a parking brake start, where you have the parking brake on, and you slip the clutch and use the clutch plate as resistance for your turbocharger to build up boost pressure.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Nobody double declutches on upshifts - you'd lose too much time. H&T and Double Declutching are primarily downshifting techniques; you CAN use them for upshifts, but only a total nonce would.

Actually, you HAD to double declutch and blip the throttle when upshifting on very old (race and every day) cars. Because it took a lot more time to shift, your revs could go lower than the value after the gearbox was synchronised.

Quote from ssm :

You don't need to speed the input gears up during an upshift. You DO need to speed the input gears up for a downshift. On an upshift, you let the input gears SLOW DOWN, so double shifting on an upshift would only hurt your synchronization units more.

and @ mrrodgers, there is no resistance when you rev the engine in "neutral gear", so, it would not do much for your boost pressure. There is something called a parking brake start, where you have the parking brake on, and you slip the clutch and use the clutch plate as resistance for your turbocharger to build up boost pressure.

I don't get your last point (to mrrodgers). Your transmission doesn't affect your turbo's pressure.

slipping the clutch puts load on the engine which makes the turbo spool up. if there is no load then the turbo wont spool which is why you dont get boost when you rev it in neutral.

Quote from Zen321 :

Actually, you HAD to double declutch and blip the throttle when upshifting on very old (race and every day) cars. Because it took a lot more time to shift, your revs could go lower than the value after the gearbox was synchronised.

The only major difference in the structure of an old gear box and a modern gear box is the synchronization units. The synchronization units are very much like sand paper, a clutch plate that is between the input gear and the main "slot" gear.

You NEVER blip the engine while upshifting, you are trying to let the revs drop enough that you can engage a higher gear set. What I said about "so double shifting on an upshift would only hurt your synchronization units more." means that: you need to slow the input gear down, speeding the input gear up then mashing the gear in, taxes more on the synchros. Because you are adding extra force for the synchros to slow down for you, thus wearing it down further then normal.

You need to blip the throttle on a down shift because the ratio is quicker, and taller, you need to make the input gear faster to match up to the taller ratio.

Look at the gear setting in the LFS garage, the scale is a pretty good illustration of a gear set, the lower the gear, the "taller" the ratio.

Quote :

I don't get your last point (to mrrodgers). Your transmission doesn't affect your turbo's pressure.

I mean, there will be little load on the engine when you are in an "empty gear" such as neutral. It would provide approxamately the same amount of stress on the engine as when you depress the clutch and rev the engine.

You should understand that the exhaust gasses do not come out at a fast enough rate when there is not enough load on the engine. If there is not enough exhaust gasses coming out, the turbine will not spool fast enough. If the turbine does not spool fast enough, the pressure in the intake manifold will not build. Comprende?

Quote from ssm :

Comprende?

Nope....

5000 rpm is 5000 rpm, no matter what the load on the engine is. Your engine speed is still 5000 rpm, still sucking air in, and still exhausting air....

Quote from mrodgers :

Nope....

5000 rpm is 5000 rpm, no matter what the load on the engine is. Your engine speed is still 5000 rpm, still sucking air in, and still exhausting air....

No. Different load. You use more petrol and o2 when the engine is under load. You use more petrol to reach a certain rpm when the engine is under load. The throttle doesn't control the RPM, it controls the throttle flap which controls how much fuel mixture gets into the cylinders.

Quote from ssm :

You use more petrol and o2 when the engine is under load.

No, you don't. The flow rate of air through an engine is increased by RPM. The amount of fuel that gets into your engine is adjusted to try to stay at a specific air/fuel ratio (in fuel injected cars). Load has nothing to do with it.

Quote from ssm :

it controls the throttle flap which controls how much fuel mixture gets into the cylinders.

The throttle controls how much the intake is restricted, basically. This increases the amount of vacuum, and therefore the air that the engine is taking in is less dense. It still takes in the same volume of air at a given RPM.

Quote from A M R :

if there is no load then the turbo wont spool which is why you dont get boost when you rev it in neutral.

why does the boost dial move then?

I was gong to say, I used to boost at 1.2bar at traffic lights in my old Saab, in neutral, just to make the dump valve hiss at other people. Comments about gearing affecting boost pressure is a misnomer.

Airflow, on the other hand ...

An engine with no load on it will have much cooler exhaust gas temperatures, and so won't generate much boost pressure. Whilst revving 'at the lights' can generate a small amount of boost (because you are blowing the turbine and providing a slight temperature difference) you won't develop much.

Also, you can't rev at 5000rpm for very long with no load - unless you have a REALLY REALLY heavy flywheel, so you close the throttle (which DOES reduce the volume of air in the cylinders - air is compressible remember, so the engine can still turn even if very little can get past the throttle. Don't listen to Wheel4Hummer, as he knows not what he says) which reduces the load/temperature.

5000rpm with a load is easy to maintain - just floor it up a hill. No change in RPM or speed, but a marked increase in boost pressure...

All of this is very simplified of course - turbos are vastly more complex than a quick forum post can give them justice.

Quote from ssm :

The only major difference in the structure of an old gear box and a modern gear box is the synchronization units. The synchronization units are very much like sand paper, a clutch plate that is between the input gear and the main "slot" gear.

You NEVER blip the engine while upshifting, you are trying to let the revs drop enough that you can engage a higher gear set. What I said about "so double shifting on an upshift would only hurt your synchronization units more." means that: you need to slow the input gear down, speeding the input gear up then mashing the gear in, taxes more on the synchros. Because you are adding extra force for the synchros to slow down for you, thus wearing it down further then normal.

You need to blip the throttle on a down shift because the ratio is quicker, and taller, you need to make the input gear faster to match up to the taller ratio.

Look at the gear setting in the LFS garage, the scale is a pretty good illustration of a gear set, the lower the gear, the "taller" the ratio.



I mean, there will be little load on the engine when you are in an "empty gear" such as neutral. It would provide approxamately the same amount of stress on the engine as when you depress the clutch and rev the engine.

You should understand that the exhaust gasses do not come out at a fast enough rate when there is not enough load on the engine. If there is not enough exhaust gasses coming out, the turbine will not spool fast enough. If the turbine does not spool fast enough, the pressure in the intake manifold will not build. Comprende?

I got your points, but we misunderstood each other ^^ What I meant was that the maximum boost of the turbo wasn't changed by the load : you have the same max boost in neutral and in gears.
What you were talking about was that you get a different boost for a given rpm because, ofc, you need less throttle to keep your car at 5000 rpm in neutral than in fifth. So we agree

Concerning the blip while upshifting, on unsynchronized gearboxes you had to do it if you pushed your car hard. It is because shifting took longer so your revs would drop more than expected (because staying longer in declutched or neutral), so a little blip was needed.
Also you also had to blip while double declutching in order not to overharm your primary gearbox "tree" (it's the word in french, i don't know how to say it ). In neutral your engine is connected to the primary row of gears, thus blipping here makes it spin. Blipping while declutching only makes your revs increase, but not the speed of the primary "tree".
Blipping while upshifting (in a double declutch pattern) is meant to make your primary "tree" go a little faster than with a normal declutch, so that it won't be harmed by the torque input after you have shifted and gased again.

As to precise, now with modern, synchronized gearboxes, you don't have to do it to drive, but on ancient ones, it was needed in order to keep your gearbox in good conditions after lap 3.

Syncro gearboxes have a longer shift time than non-syncro. You don't blip on upshifts because you WANT your revs to drop. When they do the next gear just slots in.

Racing cars very very rarely have syncronisation.

Quote from tristancliffe :

which DOES reduce the volume of air in the cylinders - air is compressible remember, so the engine can still turn even if very little can get past the throttle. Don't listen to Wheel4Hummer, as he knows not what he says

But I'm saying the same thing as you. I thought that no matter what, the volume of the cylinder is only changed by the position of the piston. The pressure is what changes, is it not? I know that there is a smaller amount of air if you are using less throttle, because the pressure is lower. But the volume does not change with less throttle, only the density of the air, right? Therefore there are fewer molecules of air the less throttle you use. But either way, it occupies the same space. Maybe what I typed was a little incoherent, I don't know. But what I do know is that you are too quick to accuse me of being wrong, when you don't understand what I am trying to say. I am not talking about boost pressure, but the pressure inside of a naturally aspired engine.

I see. You wrote this

Quote :

It still takes in the same volume of air at a given RPM

and I took that to mean that it sucks in the same amount of air regardless of throttle - which it can't do. If, however, you meant "It takes in a different volume of air at a given RPM [as throttle position is changed]" then I would agree. You just didn't say that.

Quote from tristancliffe :

If, however, you meant "It takes in a different volume of air at a given RPM [as throttle position is changed]" then I would agree. You just didn't say that.

Well actually, what I meant was that, "It takes in the same volume of air no matter what the throttle position or RPM is. The higher the RPM, the faster it is pumping." Because amount of moles of a gas and volume are two separate things.

I think it would be so much more realistic if parts of the car could become detached, ie, fall off, instead of squishing into the car, and also, things like windows and light coulld break. Last of all, if you are driving an xfg and get bad damage on the back of the car the window wiper sticks out whilst the rest of the car folds inwards. Clearly a blatant safety issue that should be adressed!

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Well actually, what I meant was that, "It takes in the same volume of air no matter what the throttle position or RPM is. The higher the RPM, the faster it is pumping." Because amount of moles of a gas and volume are two separate things.

Try lifting your couch up to your chest, now lift a pencil up to your chest. Same amount of energy expended?