Ok, I`ve managed to get a fairly good heel/toe technique down for rev matching downshifts (using the h-shifter, I`m not a fan of sequential and electronic trickery) in racing sims, but I`ve always wondered exactly how and when it should be used, and any difference between sims and the real life use for it.

Obviously in reality, there are a lot more mechanical reasons that aren`t simulated in sims, that might influence how and when you`d use h/t downshifting. Also since I have no racing experience in reality, I`m not entirely sure exactly when it should be used and when it shouldn`t.

Mechanically speaking, at least with non-sequential shifting, to me it seems like it should be used on all downshifts, to ease excessive wear, etc on the transmission, but by doing that, you`re bypassing the natural benefits of engine braking as a slowing aid.

Should h/t downshifting really only be used on lower gears, using engine braking from the higher gears, then maybe h/t on the 2nd/3rd depending on the car to stop the back end kicking out on cornering, or would it best be applied on all downshifts over all the gears?

Any explanations, theories, and advice welcome, for both sim use, and in reality

H&T doesn't stop engine braking. What I think you are referring to is using the clutch to reengage the gearbox when the engine is at improper revs for the road speed, and adding to the retardation - the same force that would cause wheel lock up if you're unlucky.

Using that force is bad practice in real life, as it puts more components under extra stress, and massively increases the risk of an accident. In a simulation it's valid though if you don't mind getting into bad habits.

I would always [try to] heal and toe on a downshift, partly because the car will remain more stable, and partly because it'll be less to pay for as I'm less likely to break something.

Engine braking will occur whenever you are off the throttle with the clutch engaged and the car is in neutral, at all speeds (above about 3mph).

Main difference is you are almost always going to be slower with the shifting movement in real life, since real shifter has longer travel and you tend to be more careful, so your throttle blip's timing will have to be adjusted. you will also have to develop the awareness that you might not hit every downshift right, so if the feel of the shifter feels wrong (slight vibrating/ kicking back etc) you will have to keep the clutch down, and try your best to find a gear.

engine braking isn't something you should notice when you ain't totally familiar with downshifting, because you should not be using the brakes at 100%, and naturally it's easier to downshift at a lower revs/use less engine braking because the braking effect will be more consistent, and easier to handle. trying to downshift too early will lead to lock ups which doesn't help a lot with building confidence, for someone with not much experience, it's best to concentrate on finding a safe limit to learn your car rather than overdriving it, go off the track, do damage etc that will limit your running time.

It's most important to be easy on the car and stay on the track, honestly. The more advanced technic can be polished later when you are very comfortable with your driving, and won't make any silly mistakes except when you are really pushing it.

Quote from unseen :

...to me it seems like it should be used on all downshifts, to ease excessive wear, etc on the transmission

"Heel-toe" should really be taken out of the racing context and understood for what it really is.

H/T is "downshifting while braking."

H/T allows you to downshift while braking, under the assumption that rev matching is mandatory with a traditional gearbox. By rev-matching you get the benefits of... [see posts above] and it's the [see posts above] that is relevant to racing technique or whatever. H/T, the technique on it's own, is just downshifting while braking.

Q: When should I heel toe?
A: Whenever you need to downshift while braking.

I like to drive "dynamical" irl, and i started using H/T around a year ago. I now use it almost everytime, im only not using it when im too lazy. It comes handy when you wanna overtake a car and need to downshift, then reving it on dwnshift helps alot to prevent the clutch engaging braking and you have more rev and speed sooner. But to your questions, just easily try to do it, and you will soon get the feeling with engine sound and youll be able to adjust to engine lag (unless u have a very heavy HP), and eventually youll be H/T or reving the engine on downshifts perfect almost all the time. But as said it does take a good amount of time unless youre drivign the car every day for over 3 hrs.

Heel'n'toe is only used when braking as the guy over here said, so why you want to use that before overtaking somebody is beyond me. Rev-matching on the other hand...

And rev-matching should be done on every downshift*, and if that downshift is while braking, you heel'n'toe. There isnt much more to it really.. of course things are a bit different from sims to reality, but everything is..

Btw.. If its less wear on the transmission you want, you should start double-clutching.

*one exception might be down to 1. sometimes, if you want it to be more brutal to help the car in a tight turn.

Quote from unseen :

Mechanically speaking, at least with non-sequential shifting, to me it seems like it should be used on all downshifts, to ease excessive wear, etc on the transmission, but by doing that, you`re bypassing the natural benefits of engine braking as a slowing aid.

You misunderstand what engine braking is. As Tristan pointed out, engine braking occurs whenever you reduce the throttle while the clutch is engaged (ie. the clutch plates are touching).

The key thing about downshifting is to do it smoothly. That means when you've slotted your gear stick into the right gear and release the clutch pedal, your car should not jerk because the engine speed is too low/high. Your engine speed should be appropriate for the speed your car is travelling before you release the clutch pedal.

That means if you are operating the brake pedal with your right foot, and you are also wanting to downshift, you can't operate the throttle with the same right foot so that your engine speed can be adjusted to your car's road speed, unless you contort your right foot to reach both pedals. Hence the reason for heel-toe. While your right foot's toe (or heel) is pressing down the brake pedal, your heel (or toe) adjusts the throttle to match engine speed to road speed.

Take note that while heel-toe is most commonly applied with toe on the brake, and heel on the throttle, some cars have weird pedals that require heel on the brake and toe on the throttle. But that is quite rare. Usually the toe is on the brake and heel goes to the throttle. Some people with big feet (or cars with close pedals) may be able to do with with just the sides of their feet, instead of heel or toe.

Heel-toe downshifts should be used if you want to downshift as quickly as possible while braking, AND you are operating both the accelerator and brake pedals with the same foot.

Quote :

Should h/t downshifting really only be used on lower gears, using engine braking from the higher gears, then maybe h/t on the 2nd/3rd depending on the car to stop the back end kicking out on cornering, or would it best be applied on all downshifts over all the gears?

The lower your gear, the bigger the effect will be of engine braking, or any instability caused by increase/decrease of torque to the driving wheels. So accurate matching of road speed and engine speed is more important at lower gears (gears 1 to 3), so you don't end up unsettling the car during gear change.

Quote :

Any explanations, theories, and advice welcome, for both sim use, and in reality

I'll talk only of reality here.

In general driving, you should never need to use heel-toe downshifts. The technique is quite complex, and even the best racing drivers will screw a heel-toe downshift at least once during a race. Just avoid braking and changing gears at the same time. In fact, you should only downshift after braking is completed before a hazard: if you find yourself needing to brake and downshift at the same time, that indicates you have poor distance and velocity judgment when approaching hazards. I've written some stuff about this in another thread.

In racing, heel-toe is essential if you want to compete successfully. But it must be used correctly, especially in cars with lots of torque. If you screw it badly you will end up unsettling the car, and the most likely result in RWD cars is oversteer on corner entry, or in FWD car, understeer.

If you want to learn heel-toe downshifts, practice it in an empty car park between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears, preferably with a driving coach beside you. When you can do it while singing Highway to Hell at the top of your voice and without thinking about it much, then you MIGHT be able to use it on public roads at higher speeds, and MAYBE on a racetrack. But make sure you feel COMPLETELY COMFORTABLE with it before using it on public roads.

Heel and toeing has become such a habit with me that I have enormous trouble changing down without braking when I don't need to brake! :doh: Does that make sense?

that's a bad habit

in daily driving I usually brake earlier, coast the car in the last 20 or so meter and downshift with a blip.

Quote from Mattesa :

H/T is "downshifting while braking."

Q: When should I heel toe?
A: Whenever you need to downshift while braking.

are you really really sure about this?

because when i brake and, during that, i downshift, i do not use my heel at all. why would it be named 'heel/toe' if you can do it without using the heel and the toe?

i know how it is performed, though, but i don't feel i am at a level to benefit from it. i still can't keep a decent line

Not that many people have ever used their heels in the process, unless the pedals are very poorly spaced or they have tiny feet. Most people use each side of the ball of their foot to brake and blip - not only is this easier, it allows more consistent braking, more accurate blipping, and doesn't require a 6 month intensive course of yoga.

However, the heel can be used (and is by the occasional driving legend), but more often than not with a floor hinged throttle.

Quote from george_tsiros :

are you really really sure about this?

because when i brake and, during that, i downshift, i do not use my heel at all. why would it be named 'heel/toe' if you can do it without using the heel and the toe?

Yup. As Tristan explained, it's just a name. I myself only use the side of my foot in real life, but I do use my heel in LFS. I actually had to modifiy the pedal spacing on the G25 (like many people have) in order to be able to do H/T. It's also a bit harder in the sim because you can't feel it .

Other way around for me. Heel in real life, side in LFS.

Quote from samjh :

...Take note that while heel-toe is most commonly applied with heel on the brake, and toe on the throttle, some cars have weird pedals that require toe on the brake and heel on the throttle. But that is quite rare. Usually the heel is on the brake and toe goes to the throttle. Some people with big feet may be able to do with with just the sides of their feet, instead of heel or toe....

Erm, you've got that the wrong way round there. You brake with the 'toe' and blip the throttle with the 'heel'.

Both are used, but I think heel on brake is more common. I use heel on throttle though.

Quote from hagenisse :

Both are used, but I think heel on brake is more common. I use heel on throttle though.

Really? I've never seen somebody using the heel on the brake and I can't find any examples on You Tube.

Edit: In fact, now that I think about it I'm not sure you could even hit the brake with the bottom half of your foot, as it sits higher and further forward than the accelerator.

I was thinking the same thing. But then I don't have especially abnormal ankles.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Not that many people have ever used their heels in the process, unless the pedals are very poorly spaced or they have tiny feet. Most people use each side of the ball of their foot to brake and blip - not only is this easier, it allows more consistent braking, more accurate blipping, and doesn't require a 6 month intensive course of yoga.

However, the heel can be used (and is by the occasional driving legend), but more often than not with a floor hinged throttle.

I remember reading somewhere that heel-toe was coined when most cars still had the thottle pedal in the middle and the brake pedal on the right. Thus, you really did in-fact use heel-toe with the toe on the brakes and heel to blip the throttle. Was wondering if anyone could confirm this info? Forgot where I read it so can't cite anything.

Quote from durbster :

Erm, you've got that the wrong way round there. You brake with the 'toe' and blip the throttle with the 'heel'.

Oh frak, you're right!

Proof-read, proof-read, proof-read...........

Edited for correction.

that's strange, because you can use less calf muscle when you press a pedal with the tip of your foot, to press the brake pedal with the heel is rather more tiring.

Quote from ChiShiFu :

I remember reading somewhere that heel-toe was coined when most cars still had the thottle pedal in the middle and the brake pedal on the right. Thus, you really did in-fact use heel-toe with the toe on the brakes and heel to blip the throttle. Was wondering if anyone could confirm this info? Forgot where I read it so can't cite anything.

Could be. But the last time I drove one of them was last month, and I suspect a bit longer for most members of this forum...

Quote from ChiShiFu :

I remember reading somewhere that heel-toe was coined when most cars still had the thottle pedal in the middle and the brake pedal on the right. Thus, you really did in-fact use heel-toe with the toe on the brakes and heel to blip the throttle. Was wondering if anyone could confirm this info? Forgot where I read it so can't cite anything.

Maybe, but it might just be because there's no other determinable name for it. Top left of right foot - bottom right of right foot isn't quite as catchy

Quote from durbster :

Really? I've never seen somebody using the heel on the brake and I can't find any examples on You Tube.

Oh, I didnt mean that you actually used the heel on the brake, just that heel is closer to the brake than to the throttle or something.

Basically what tristan said earlier.

Quote from tristancliffe :

H&T doesn't stop engine braking. What I think you are referring to is using the clutch to reengage the gearbox when the engine is at improper revs for the road speed, and adding to the retardation - the same force that would cause wheel lock up if you're unlucky.

Meh, I am still a total novice at this sort of stuff That`s exactly what I`d always thought of as "engine braking" - a deliberate attempt to add extra slowing power by using that retardation.

Due to the way it can make the rear end unstable to various degrees depending on how large of a difference in revs there are, I assumed using it as a technique would be valid as long as you know the car and just how unstable it becomes.

Since getting a G25 a while ago, and learning how to properly rev match on downshifts, h/t while braking, I`ve naturally grown to use that retardation effect in various cars that don`t become overly unstable when it`s done subtly (and usually only from maybe 6th down to 4th, occasionally 3rd in the lower powered cars)

It`s only recently I`ve started thinking of the extra stress and harm it would cause to the mechanical parts in reality, as well as the balance between keeping the car stable or swapping ends, and since I like to try driving sims in as realistic manner as possible (even if it`s a lot slower), I thought I`d put this thread up to get some more opinions.

It`s still all a learning process

Quote from samjh :

Oh frak, you're right!

Proof-read, proof-read, proof-read...........

Edited for correction.

Hehe, I knew you'd just made a slip-up as you clearly know what you're talking about.