There are plenty of racing games designed for entertainment. Let's not impose such measures on LFS, so that it can maintain it's position as a simulator. Simulators are meant to be accurate representations of reality, and whilst LFS isn't quite there yet in several areas, suggesting unrealistic stuff for the sake of 'entertainment' isn't really the right thing to do.

You wouldn't expect Schindler's List to have additional, needless, explosions to make it entertaining when it's a serious film. You don't expect milk to be pink to make it more interesting. So why would you want a simulator to have silly garnishes that make it less realistic?

having surround sound unrealistic stuff? what are you thinking man.

its not for entertainment its for the sake of REALITY.

in real life you hear positional sound, doesnt matter if it is racing, walking or something else, in reality you hear positional sound.

if lfs wants to be a accurate represntation of reality then it has to have positional sound, period.

oh yes, stereo is great, i have spun out of track, but hey, the cars that just passed and are behind me , i can hear them in front!!!!! SO realistic!!! (sarcasm)

geez man, you are talking plain nonsense.

if your "reality" doesnt requires positional sound, then ok, but dont say it is "entertainment", silly garnishes? oh man.

and the samples in gt legends where crap, but the positioning was great.

and dont start that crap with a movie or milk, thats BS

reality is reality, and it includes, hearing in all directions.

Have you ever even sat in a racing car, let along driven one in a pack of cars at 140mph and 7000rpm? I have (last weekend for instance), and I can assure you that hearing other cars is pretty damn difficult, and you most certainly can't tell anything other than left, right and distance. And therefore stereo is more than realistic enough.

When you're walking I agree you can hear things around you and guestimate where the source is with reasonable accuracy. When you're driving a road car you might be able to (assuming to cars around you have ricer exhausts). But whilst racing with a helmet and all the other interference, you cannot. Period.

Edit:

Quote :

im no racer in real life

There you go...

@ramirom: If you read what tristancliffe was saying you would realize he is stating that in the position of driving a race car, you can only tell which side the car is on, not how far back or front. Therefore its simulating preciscely what is needed and.

I would like 5.1 to be in the sim, but there are other things to come to the playing field first. 5.1 sounds would be an extra, even though it shouldn't be all that hard to add it would take a bit of additional time that could be well spent on other things at the moment.

offtopic - Pink milk sounds pretty interesting though! (Goes to buy food dye and milk) /offtopic

tristan, when you play lfs you dont wear a helmet.
or maybe, but thats just your choice.

you sound so obstinated.

ok how about when you are not in the pack? middle race, someone comes from behind.

in lfs as it is, you WOULD hear it in front, because front speakers are that, frontal.
is that simple, but the car is not in front.

in reality the case would not be the same, and i dont need to be racer to know this.

the only thing i can think of is that you play with headphones or you put your front speakers to your sides (wich neither is realistic but sort of better than in front), that way or you are getting no realistic position of sounds while in game, period.

if your speakers are in front, then ALL sound comes front to your face, wich is, unrealistic.

even at the situation you talk about, sound will be coming from all angles, not just front of you, i dont care if it is soooooo much noise that you cant distinguish.

stereo sound is not realistic in a simulator.

i dont agree but dont want to keep arguing, just hope that lfs gets surround sound.

again sorry if my english is bad.

and by the way, all cars in lfs dont go to 140mph at 7000rpm, so ther are different situations that the one you describe, that is not the only case, but you talk like it is.

all i can say here is ive discussed this with tristan here before and lost badly so good luck lol

but the more i think about it the more what tristan says becomes viable because i can imagine a helmet will distort any of the sounds direction other than side to side

distort yes, make sounds in the back sound in front no in any way.

thats the reality, there is no such reality as stereo speakers, they dont simulate the true thing.

you really think james that the ears and brain is the same as 2 speakers in front of you?

there is SO much information in sound entering the brain in the reality that i dont understand how someone can be so obstinate about surround sound in place of stereo sound.

because, we are talking about realism here, and realism demands surround sound.

it is FAR from being a "garnish"

and most of all, its about user choice options, not what some like.

for the lovers of stereo use stereo.

for us that want surround we use surround.

if lfs someday gets surround sound, i think that all the people that bitched about it will have to stick that up them ****
and will be saying "man this is great"

well the hard shell of a crash helmit would give out sound over a large area meaninfg it would be almost unidentifiable but the human ear were the car is

i dont think same, it must be regulatory that the pilot must hear through the helmet, im gonna search for it.

you cant drive deafened.

and what about motorcycles

even if it is like that you wont hear well, you will not lose all hearing, it will be impaired but it will be there, and it will not convert it to sound like 2 speakers front your face, that no way.

well, browsing the net i found that most quality helmets have some hearing refinement design.

so it shouldnt alter the sound waves SO much.

again, stereo will never achieve realism.

having a speaker on each corner of me and being able to hear individual tyres screaching and also a heavy sub making you 'feel' the vibrations in the cockpit are two things id positively love to see in LFS.

+1.

ramiron: Move your speakers to your left and right then, rather than in front of you

I think surround sound would be a great addition to LFS, adds a lot to the immersion factor, and hearing where a car is can only be a good thing don't you think?.

Quote from tristancliffe :

ramiron: Move your speakers to your left and right then, rather than in front of you

thought that, but its not the solution, because is not a problem to have front speakers in front.

what is a problem to me is that an actual simulator doesnt even have the most primitive 4.0 sound.

But that's the whole point - it doesn't need it, because there really isn't anything 4.0 could offer that 2.0 can't realistically manage. You can add fancy features until the cows come home (UK phrase, don't know if it works elsewhere), but what's the point of adding them in a simulator when the existing system is perfectly realistic, 'features' aren't the name of the game, and coding time is limited anyway?

What would adding 4.0 or 5.1 actually do? It might help you know where cars are in a totally unrealistic way. Why would you want that? If you don't want realism then play GTR, or rFactor. If you do want realism, then want realism, not a realism that is stretched to allow fancy extras like surround sound.

i think you have a wrong concept of "reality"


if for you surround sound is unrealistic and 4.0 or 5.1 cant offer nothing more than 2.0, lets leave it there.

When you have a go in a real racing car let us know, because you'll change your mind.

dont think so, reality is reality and is not stereo.

Which bit don't you understand? Reality IS essentially stereo with a helmet on, in a racing car with high levels of noise and vibration, and limited visibility. It really is. You wouldn't know as you've admitted to never having been in that environment.

man you are so obstinate.

first of all, in lfs you dont HEAR the sounds like with a helmet, they sound like a normal enviroment.

second, you are the only one that says that reality is stereo.

third, i dont need to race to know how my body works.

if you want stereo, ok, live with it.

we are a lot that we want surround sound in the game.

so if you are gonna keep with that argument over the helmet, is invalid, because in lfs the sound is not designed to sound like with a helmet. period

and if we are gonna talk about stupid garnishes that harm the realism, that option to play music in the game is so reeeeeeal isnt?

give me a break man

1. No, but I think you should personally. However, the fact that the sound isn't as muffled as with a helmet doesn't mean that extra stuff should be included on the basis that the driver isn't wearing a helmet.
2. No I'm not. Re-read the replies
3. Yes you do

Yes, the music option is stupid. But none of the quick people listen to music as it would distract you ever-so-slighly from the job in hand. It's a silly arcade option that needs removing.

I'll give you a break when you earn one

ok, but the fact is that the sound isnt designed to sound like with a helmet, so there is no point in what you are saying.

surround sound is no extra stuff, if you are so negative about it, well thats your problem my friend.

and no, i dont need to race to know how my body works, ive driven a lot of vehicles in my life, and i assure you that it will never be the same, helmet or not, using 2 speakers vs 2 ears & brain.

i think you need a break from yourself

if you like hearing all through 2 speakers then thats fine, but dont try to make other people think like you.

youre not helping anyone with your negative comments.

the thread is about 5.1 sound, if you hate it, then why are you here?

Ramirom, look.. You seem to miss the point. Look at these videos and try to imagine how it sounds first hand, AND.. Inside a helmet.
You wouldn`t even hear yourself if you scream your guts out, without a radio. The sound comes from all over you, i mean, it`s really loud.
I for sure wouldn`t be able to tell if someone passes me on the left/right, other than looking in the mirror, as a reaction to the "other sounds" i hear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEQgUiFx87g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q8ZNkhxT04
In road cars... Maybe, but still..
anyway, to be a real pain, i`ll quote a post in a certain thread, specifically named for no-one to read it.

(Suggested improvements log [READ before making a new thread])

Quote from Hyperactive :

Sound:
+ A master volume setting for each engine sound: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=30245
+ play a sound people when people join server even when LFS is minimized: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=30897
+ Suspension sound
+ Surround sound
+ Better engine sounds: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=1891
+ More realistic transmission sounds etc.

Your argument that 5.1 should be included because the sounds aren't like through a helmet is tenuous to me. You other unrealistic things would you like added because something else isn't quite right yet?

I to have driven lots of vehicles, and on the road I would agree that 5.1 would be realistic (not that the volume would be loud enough to help).

These aren't negative comments per se, they are my experience with sound in a racing environment. If you want nothing but praise for unrealistic suggestions then that's great, but it's not what forums, especially improvment suggestion forums, are about.

I would also concede that 5.1 would be better from the spectators point of view (trackside cameras, or even when sitting in the pits as cars go by on track). Hell, allow 5.1 all the time, but heavily reduce the surround aspect as noise/revs/speed/vibrations increase.

stf, i dont miss the point, i understant totally what you mean, but again we are back to the point i started, in lfs the sound is not designed to sound like with a helmet, its done to sound like a road car, in fact, there are road cars in the game.

i dont want surround sound because the sounds arent like through a helmet, i want surround sound because it will be more realistic (if well implemented)

lets put it this way, for you tristan, it must sound the same to hear a race recorded with a stereo mic in the cockpit than actually being racing there? i dont think so.

i think the thing here is the way that surround would be implemented, i mean it could be unrealistic like you say, but if used right it can be much much better.

my point is that stereo will never, give you the realism that surround sound (well applied) can give you.

i dont want to argue, and i dont hold the total truth, but tristan, ive been watching your videos and they are great man, but i dont understand how do you say that stereo is more than enough :S

Its 2008 now. I think that you could ask at least surround sound from a descent game nowadays. Even iRacing has it.
Or do we want to go back to the ol' 16 channel sound system and 16bits colouring stuff i mean we have come along way with hardware + software so i really cant see the problem how can people be satisfied with "only" stereo sound At least for me a good sound system is a big difference.

You guys who have a descent surround system hooked up to the telly knows what i mean for example. Turn the stereo of and stick with the tv's sound only. Big big difference. Very thin and poor.