I know these sort of things, Engine mods tunning and tweaking, have been suggested to death. But I don't think its been fairly discussed before. Usually what happens is someone suggest it and 20 people give reasons why it should not be added.

Now my suggestion is to be able to make your engine. Am talking the whole sha bang.

Valve train
Head specifications
Block specifications
ECU parameters
Forced induction


Too me its seems very hypocritical to call for realism and want to race around with the same engine in everyones car. In reality no race team has the same engine.



Why add such a feature?
1. For one its more realistic
2.Dynamic Strategy. when a race teams builds a engine & suspension they have a set plan as to how there gonna grasp victory. To win a race you usually focus on a few specific areas whether it is avg cornering speed, entry speed, exit speed, straight away speed, consistency, Etc. these areas would be selected on what your strengths and weaknesses are and the track it self. With Lfs just having the ability to change suspension, you are constricted on strategies


Number 2 i think is the sole reason why it should be added. But as i have read in other post there are a lot of people with legitimate reasons as to why it should not be added. I plan on giving a rebuttal for some of the big reasons i found in previous post.

Quote :

What is better... You win the race knowing all the cars have the same performance and its your skill as a driver that got the win or the fact you have more credits (Or have found a cheat/hack) so you have all the best bits and you only win because you have the faster car.
~WOZ

This is a good argument but i have to disagree. First off in real life this isnt the case all cars arent the same some are better than others in different areas. if as a simulator your highest priority is realism you should just have to deal with it because thats how it is in real life.

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but modifying the engine is a no no to me personally. Partly because i would be clueless where to start, and secondly because it would give too much of an advantage to those knowledgeable in engines.
~Stellios

I see a lot of people agree with this one. Don't understand why. Suspension setups arent exactly common knowledge. It seems rather selfish to deny a feature for the simple reason you don't understand it.

Quote :

If this stuff ended up in LFS it'd turn into Gran Turismo/NFSU/Midnight Club, where the most modded car wins everything - in fact you need all the hot bits to win at all, the further you go - and then I think loads of people would quit playing. LFS is a driving sim and demands that your skill get you across the line first, not your after-market accessories.
~Hankstar

isnt that how it is in real life though. With that said if u strap a turbo onto the GTi the skill level needed to drive it isnt going to get lower. If anything Its going to take more driving skills to keep it on the road and control wheel spin. Adding such features to Lfs would call for a class system for the cars. Class system like real life

Quote :

Fair racing would go out the window and we'd have to endure all the silly questions and confusion about which tuning is best for which car on which track.
~Gunn

isnt this already the case with suspension setups

Quote :

LFS is about racing, and racing is about skills, car control, using the brain, estimating the right speed in the corners etc, not about holding the N2O key down. That's how EA "racing" series shows it. Who wants moddded engine with N2O, airslamming turbo, precise set fuel mixture and timing, then he have to look for another game.
~MadCatX

I feel racing is about the car just as much as it is about the driver. When a race team shows up for a race there two things they need to win, Car & a driver. When a team shows up for a race there arent coming for a good race and to have fun. Above all there coming to win

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The trouble is that suspension tuning is necessary to allow each driver, and their respective styles, to get the most of the car. I can't drive some of Flotch's setups becuase they are too weird, but I can drive, say, Csimpoks.
tristancliffe

I feel this is quite true for suspension and engine but not to the same extent you have for suspensions. One of the areas Lfs suffers and fails in comparison to a game like Gran Turismo 4, is its controls. To me were never really driving the same car. We all have different controls. Some use game pads, wheels, keyboard, mouse. With a game like GT4 everyone is either using the DFP or a controller. I think this is where the individuality in Suspension setups comes from in lfs.

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However, with engine tuning, for a given track, there is one 'ultimate' configuration. Anyone running the wrong boost, ignition timing or whatever will be at a disadvantage to someone not running 'ultimate'. What does that mean? Well, eventually, everyone will run the same engine maps at each track, thus making the tuning bit useless. To start with it might be great while everyone finds the ultimate engine setup, but only for a few weeks. Therefore the programming work needed to make this happen would be wasted.
tristancliffe

there can never be one ultimate setup. We all may have different views on how we would tackle a race plus an engine must really complement its suspension so there should be lots of variations.

Quote :

In orginized racing it's not about who has the better car, it about putting drivers in very similar vehicles with a defigned performance range and letting them prove who is the better driver, not who has the better car. LFS is a Racing Simulator, as such it is designed to simulate the compitition between driver's skill.
Gimpster

i do believe it is also about “who is the better driver” but in organized racing the better driver docent decide the win. many other factors do.
Nascar- it could be about pit times
Formula-pit strategy, car design
Rally-whose cars can survive the longest(they really abuse those things)


all in all it docent really matter who is right or wrong here. Adding such a feature as building your engine is a big upgrade. I don't expect scarwen to come here and be like this is what i got to work on. Before a system like this is implemented there are a several other things that really need to be added and fixed. Tire physics brake fade to name a few. I still do think such a feature needs to be added. though if it were to be added it would be far off i see no harm in discussing it.



I was not trying to insult anyone, am just trying to have a nice discussion on the topic with out someone calling someone else rice and what not.

All I can say is: best of luck.

There are a few stats I'm going to have a go at estimating:

Percentage of LFS'ers who like racing: 100%
Percentage of LFS'ers who know anything about building/tuning RL engines (GT4 knowledge doesn't count): maybe 50%
Percentage of LFS'ers who don't know about building/tuning who could actually be arsed learning about tuning etc just for LFS: bugger all %

I reiterate what you've quoted me as saying: LFS is about skill behind the wheel, not skill in the garage. 60's F1 legend Jim Clark (may his soul rest) didn't know much about mechanics and didn't want to know. All he wanted was to hop in, drive fast and then tell Colin Chapman to make the car go faster I'm no Jim Clark on the track, but I am in the garage: just give me the keys, I don't care about anything else except the times on my pitboard.

Real racing is about money, and how you expend your money on technical progression. Even in the Go Karts I race the teams with the hottest engine tuning and most advantaced telemetry systems analysis and best organised "pit crews" are the winners.

I just turn up with a kart on a trailer, and I race against motorhomes and flat pack kitchens with carpetted garages.

If you want ultra realistic racing put money into the game, because money is all that really matters in real motor racing. Many a talented driver doesn't get very far because of the lack of it - for instance currently Britains best Grand Prix hope was an arrogant little kid I used to thrash in Formula TKM but he found a financer and went all the way. There's many a more talented driver out there.

If you want engine building on the other hand I think you need a hot rod or dragster sim.

Engine tuning yes as nearly every formula has engine tuning but engine building is the domain of Formula 1 and Le Mans. Outside of that and you get only the choice of sealed unit or tweekable.

I do agree on some of your arguments though - I got given a better setup than my own on South Long Rev today and went 4 seconds faster instantly. LFS is 30% skill, 30% T1 luck and 40% suspension & gearing setup.

I agree about setups. They can make all the difference, not only to a race or laptime, but to the enjoyment of the game, full stop.

There's already a lot for the average bum (me) to get his head around in the setup area, with fully adjustable diffs, transmissions, suspensions, brake balances (even in the "street" cars like the UF and XF) and often I just download other peoples' sets and tweak them a tiny bit (and just as often not at all), rather than scratch-build my own. Start adding everything else and watch peoples' interest take a nosedive - or watch threads about "best engine settings for BL REV/SO1/FE Green pls" etc skyrocket.

There's nothing essentially wrong with wanting this extra stuff in LFS, but you must consider if it's actually worth having it at all.

can deff understand where you guys are coming from. it might of seem as though i over exsagerated Build your own engine. i don't think it would be more complicated than making a setup.

yea of course i understand some people want to race, and not bother with engine performance. But too me there seems to be only one road to victory in this game for a give track.

Suppose i said i was going to hold a competion with the winner getting 1000 dollars.

Competion
10 laps on blackwood in current LFS version, winner would be determined by points system

35 points for fastest 10 laps
50 points if u have the fastest lap
100 points if u break a world record for the track
and points based on split fastest split times and such
it would have to be done online and u get one shot Etc

as u can see there may be several different ways to win such a competion.
to me RL racing is sort of like this. Many different ways to win and its up to the driver execute the plan.

I think if some of us actually went and researched a little about engines we would see thats setting up one isnt as complicated as one would think.

i think i should elaborate on what i mean by building engines
Valve train
Head specifications
Block specifications
ECU parameters
Forced induction

Valve train
valve timming
Cam timming
maybe some sort or option for VCT VVT
Head Specification
Port size
number of Valves
Block SPecification
Bore
Stroke
Displacement
Compression ratio
ECU Parameters
ignition timming
Fuel maps
Boost maps
rev limits
Forced induction
Super chargers
turbos


if u googled anyone of those u would be well educated to change values in anyone of those areas. (not in real life though) One of the good things about engines is there is ussually a trade off. so one upgrade will have a negative effect. might seem like alot for someone but if your on a team am sure there would be one person on there who was quite educated on the matter and could design a engine for the team. I myself am not a mechanic or a engine freak or anything (actually computer science major) and i do know quite a bit. it isnt hard stuff

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I saw a few in another thread suggesting that there should actually be less setup options in LFS to make it more realistic, and I think I'm in that camp too. Not to mention the fact that it'd make pick-up racing easier and IMHO that's what LFS does best.

I don't want to ruin the fun of any of the engineers in our community, I just don't want to have to compete with them on an engineering level to be competitive in a race.

Yep, formula ford has sealed engines with no tweaks allowed. V8s down under have limits on diff settings. You are allowed 2-3 choices of final drive etc.

Quote :

I saw a few in another thread suggesting that there should actually be less setup options in LFS to make it more realistic, and I think I'm in that camp too. Not to mention the fact that it'd make pick-up racing easier and IMHO that's what LFS does best.

Yea alot of the limitation in real life i realize were added for safety reasons. i don't watch nascar but was passing by speed and saw some guys tire blow up. u can imagine at 200mph thats a problem, what had happned was they lowered the tire preasure in the backright tire for grip but it backfired for them. turns out nascar has a minimum tire preasure limit for the front tires but not for the back. that just one example of why limitations are there. i think if limitations inf LFS were to be imposed it should be done by the person whos holding the Race. would be alot easier to implement i think

My opinion, for what it (isn't) worth is that engine tuning would be nice if it was done properly - and that just isn't feasible for, well, anyone here I don't imagine. The masses of information required to build a competative engine are staggering, so unless it was a crappy 'pick one of 5 camshafts and one of five cylinder heads' system it just wouldn't work.

Plus I don't think that it would, in the long run, add anything of any value to LFS at this stage. Maybe that will change as LFS develops...

Allow me to comment on a few of the parameters you have suggested. I will add my comments in, hmmm, blue I think.

Quote from lalathegreat :

Valve train
valve timming - What size valves? What flow coefficients? What seat angles and widths? What ramp angles? what duration? what overlap?
Cam timming - what cam profile? Multiple cam profiles - when does the change over occur. Pushrod, SOHC, DOHC etc?
maybe some sort or option for VCT VVT - done that above. Got ahead of myself.
Head Specification
Port size - done that too. But lots more parameters...
number of Valves - profile of valve stem and head? Angle of valves? Resulting cylinder head geometry? Spark plug (or multiple) position? Squish areas? Swirl? Turbulence?
Block SPecification
Bore - easy one that...
Stroke - what about conrod length?
Displacement - defined by (usually) just bore and stroke to give swept displacment, not a term in it's own right really.
Compression ratio - again, squish, combustion chamber design, piston crown profile, crown to top ring distance, valve pockets.
ECU Parameters
ignition timming - are people REALLY going to bother to work out the MBT for an engine at different loads, speeds and throttles? What about knocking and automatic advance. Cold start. Detonation? 3D, 4D, xD ECU maps?
Fuel maps - same again really... Stoichiometric? Rich? Lean? Knocking? Charge cooling due to latent heat of vapourisation?
Boost maps - this is complex enough without trying to model the pressure and flow rates and gradients of a compressor and turbine...
rev limits - now you want to model conrod strength, reciprcating mass balance, valve bounce etc?
Forced induction
Super chargers - lots of types, lots of complexity. You don't just pick one off a shelf. Lots of data is needed to correctly utilise forced induction.
turbos - same

What about charge cooling? What about inlet tract lengths? Airbox volumes? Primary and secondary exhaust primary lengths and diamters? Bend profiles and radii? Fuel wetting? Plug foulling? and lots and lots and lots more.

If you want to really simulate engines as much as you seem to do you will HAVE to include all of these simple (not to model) things to get anywhere close to it. Anything less will just be a GT4 style tuning exercise.

Quote from lalathegreat :

if u googled anyone of those u would be well educated to change values in anyone of those areas. (not in real life though) One of the good things about engines is there is ussually a trade off. so one upgrade will have a negative effect. might seem like alot for someone but if your on a team am sure there would be one person on there who was quite educated on the matter and could design a engine for the team. I myself am not a mechanic or a engine freak or anything (actually computer science major) and i do know quite a bit. it isnt hard stuff

Don't need to google them, and I can tell you if you have to rely on google then the chances of coming up with a working engine from scratch are slim to none. But some people play Russian Roulette, so what do I know... Yes there is usually a trade off - you could simplify the proposed GT4 system by having a RPG 'stats' system, so exhaust primaries 1 = +5hp +3lbft -2co -4nox etc etc.

I have and am involved in engine building, tuning and preparation and I can tell you it's not easy stuff. It's bloody complex once you get into it, although How Stuff Works does a fairly good job of making it seem simple, but that's its purpose.


Nice idea in a way, but to simulate it properly just wouldn't work, and to simulate it half-heartedly just isn't worth the hassle. Plus the 1337 crew would come along and bolt on phat air filters and big zausts just for the power gain, erm, I mean just to pull 12 year olds at run down cruuuuzes.

Quote from lalathegreat :

Yea alot of the limitation in real life i realize were added for safety reasons.

I personally would love tinkering with engine setups but I have to agree with all those that say it is not good to overall racing. I would even infact like to see the ability to limit suspension/ gear ratios etc as a server side option for race serries or "race weekends"

As to limitations in race serries, it not just about saftey, infact I would say it less than 50% about safty and that limitations are imposed more to make the racing competitive. e.g. In the V8Supercars the whole serries is about creating an exciting but relatively equal field of cars creating some very close and hotly contested racing. Before this type of racing here in Australia they had Touring Cars but what happened with them is that one manufaturer would dominate for great lengths of time (years even decades) and that detracted from the racing (bit like F1 ) What they have created with the V8Supercar serries is great for the spectators and drivers alike, as it always gives great action on the track and gives each driver/team much more chance than they normally would have to do well, although at the end of the day the ones with the biggest budgets still tend to win most often, but not always .

tristancliffe
yea thats sorta what i had in mind although u did take it to the half way extreame. i do agree with u when u say if its not done right don't do it. one of the hardest parts in implementing such a system is when to stop in terms of factors to be considered. there would have to be point where you draw the line and say am not simulating that. to determine that line would take some carefull planning. it does look like a hit and miss sorta thing but i think it could work.



What i meant by its not hard is the actually comcept of it. example how combustion works isnt hard to understand but when u get into thermodynamics and all that is where it gets complex. i wasn't trying to give the impression you can google something and next day ready to design a a engine and then build it in real life.

Quote :

As to limitations in race serries, it not just about saftey, infact I would say it less than 50% about safty and that limitations are imposed more to make the racing competitive. e.g. In the V8Supercars the whole serries is about creating an exciting but relatively equal field of cars creating some very close and hotly contested racing. Before this type of racing here in Australia they had Touring Cars but what happened with them is that one manufaturer would dominate for great lengths of time (years even decades) and that detracted from the racing (bit like F1 ) What they have created with the V8Supercar serries is great for the spectators and drivers alike, as it always gives great action on the track and gives each driver/team much more chance than they normally would have to do well, although at the end of the day the ones with the biggest budgets still tend to win most often, but not always

yea am on the same page with u. but sometimes when i see one manufacturer dominating i think its well deserved. if i went out raced and got my whooped i would anylyze my defeat, and hit the drawing board. deffinetly need limits though.

I like you. You took my exaggeration on the chin and in the humour intended. Whilst I know what you mean about it being a nice thing to do (ground up engine simulation and 'tuning') in terms of seeing your creation win races I still maintain that the added value to LFS would be negligable and perhaps even harmful to it, and we don't want that.

LFS is a computer game at the end of the day, so it's first priority is to allow us to have some close, fun racing without any more hassle than we want. BUT a close second to that is to keep the racing realistic at the same time. Whilst your idea might, technically, be more realistic (especially for F1 classes etc) I don't think it would add fun. If I want to design an engine there is nothing to actually stop me trying. If I want to race a racecar then there is something stopping me - I don't have a race licence, I can't afford the running costs etc. Whilst I could go and get a licence and I could save up, LFS allows me to do something I can't (regularly at least) in real life.

Anyone can, just be reading and thinking, with a pencil and some paper, being to design an engine. Hell, I used to sketch engines when I was a boy too. None of them would work (I could never work out why engines didn't just stop because they had no energy source without being plugged in), but I was able and willing.

I would, however, like to have a 3D engine building simulation program, where we have design everything, put it together, sort the electronics and fire her up. But I fear that's a long way off because combustion, CFD and FEA are imperfect arts. Maybe after LFS Scawen can 'treat' us to the worlds best engine simulator

Edit: Kev is about to reply...

imo, we have lfstweak, if lfstweak suport all cars and have mor options, that question is answered...

Quote :

negligable and perhaps even harmful to it

could u elaborate on the negative side


to me the benefits of a more dynamic gameplay far outweight any negatives i know of.

for me this is sorta how i figure it would work
example there is a race

Track:Blackwood
Laps:30
Cars GTi, XRG,XRT, And AWD car RB something can't remember the name
Conditions:300 HP limit
my Strategy: try and get Faster Corner Exit Speed Plan overtakes after Corner Exits utilizing lightweight for acceleration.

given this situation Everyone is going to pick a different car to start with mostly based on Drivetrain and weight.

Continuing with the senario i would pick the GTi, beucase its lightweight. although its lightweight althought its light weight it still has it disadvantages such as its FWD understeer tracktion problems.

i tested it and i seem to use 2.5% of gas with the Stock GTi on every lap so that would be 75% the whole race in the stock form. that means anything i might have to make the engine thats is competitive but easy on the gas.(or drive in a more concervitive manner if possible)
summing it up so far

Engine:Need a competive motor that consumes < X of gas per lap
Suspension:needs to be able to alow me Exit corners fastthis is where it begins
going to have to be vague with this cause i
don't know the GTi Stock stuff so yea
Valve train
valve timming: [as in duration] need something thats going to be power in the middle to top end
Cam timming: [as in advance or retard when valves open] retarded for topend power
Head Specification
Port size: keep same
number of Valves: 4
Block SPecification
Bore :
Stroke: allowed me to rev to 9500 RPM
Displacement bump it up too 1.8 liters
Compression ratio something like 8:1
ECU Parameters
ignition timming
Fuel maps
Boost maps: would have very mild boost up to 75% throttle then someonething like 10-14 PSI full throttle
Forced induction
Super chargers
turbos: would use Smaller turbo with a AR ratio that alowed for a very quick spool

did this off the top of my head
as u can see i tried my best to set it up for my strategy i was vague in certain areas didn't want to over complicate this post more than neccesary.

Quote from newage :

imo, we have lfstweak, if lfstweak suport all cars and have mor options, that question is answered...

yea but we can't race it online and LFStweak allows any parameters. plus to keep the balance we would some sort of engine damage

This all seems crazy, i mean i agree with the adding of engine managment for the simple fact that it will be more like real life, and no car is the same....if everyone drove the same car in real life you know how boring that shit whould be see every single car like yours drivin the streets, racing on tracks, drifting on tracks, you whould know everything about it and what it can do...wheres the Challenge in that? wheres the realism in that?

I think this shouldnt even be a problem...i think they should add this because basicly for us dragers who like to drag on LFS DEMO and S2 that engine managment whould be GREAT for us i mean seriously GREAT not knowing what the other person brings adds more excitment to the game and knowning that when you have enough CREDITS you will be able to get yourself your own Engine upgrade or whatever how they wanna do it.

I say if its such a big deal, have it to were when someone creates a online room they can choose whether people can join with their modded cars or NOT that way the people who dissagree with this they can choose whether or not everyone is the same or NOT.

It would make more sense to allow this kind of thing in F1 and drag, and remove a lot of the setup options from the small formula's like the UF and XF.

The UF series should be totally standard, set your tyre pressures and fuel load (not that fuel load would effect them much because the tank is so small) and off you go.

F1 is about endless testing and telemetry.

In between is where you'll find me

Why not have it?, because in many forms of motorsport the engine reg's are tight enough that the majority of teams have the same or very similar engines, there just isnt the scope there for changing much if anything.

I really hope that engine setup doesnt happen at least before the other setup pages are fixed and made more realistic, and if it does happen its not like the infintesimle setups we have now.

LFS has a LONG way to go before the existing setup system is made more realistic, without thinking about adding engine parameters.

You talk about modifying the engine of the XF Gti above, IRL many forms of racing that would include a car type like the XF Gti would have extremely limiting factors on the engine, you wouldnt be able to just change the displacement, or add a turbo, and if you could everyone would do it and there would be no advantage, back to square one.

ATM there is NO need for engine parameters.

edit : sounds like you have been used to playing GT4 TBH, the way GT4 works is the same way your train of thought is thinking, chuck as much horsepower as you can at a car to win a race, IRL it just aint like that.

Dan,

Actually it is, a bit, sadly. You said yourself, "if you could everyone would do it and there would be no advantage, back to square one." which pretty much sums the off track mentality of racers up.

If the rules dont outlaw something and/or the scrutineering isnt sophisticated enough to rule against something then somebody somewhere has a wallet large enough to do it ... which means 70% of the field have to do whatever it is to stay competetive...

Which is exactly the reason why most/many of the modifictations the original poster mentioned just arent allowed in a lot of motorsport classes, they deliberatly restrict them to make for an even field, and so the race winner wins on driving ability rather than how much money/horsepower they can chuck at the car.

To keep LFS realistic, very little or no engine modification should be allowed, either that or they need to decide on fixed class sets, and also the rest of the setup parameters need severely limiting to, I have raced mini's in the past (like the UF1) and pretty much everybody in the field had the same engine and gearbox, and very, very little adjustment on suspension, in LFS I can change gear ratios and suspension settings out the ying-yang, that is about as non-realistic and arcade as you can get.

Dan,

If engine damage would be implemented better (for insatncew an engine could blow and there goes your race), it would be nice to be able to set max rpm. That way you could overrev the engine a bit but it would give you more speed. On the other hand, most racers shift at 7000-7500 rpm in the FXR and XRR so that would actually be quite useless... (rev limiting). Too much electronics style help

I'd like it, with more sensitive engines in terms of damage, and a server flag to allow tweaking, and hopefully 90% of servers still running without tweaking enabled.

You know what CP, I would say its even less than that.

With the default set I can drive the FXO round BLGP rev 1:26, with a good set I can get low 1:24's to 1:23's, about 3 secs difference.

If my calcs are correct I reckon thats about a 4% difference.

Dan,