Quote from Chrester :

You guys who have a descent surround system hooked up to the telly knows what i mean for example. Turn the stereo of and stick with the tv's sound only. Big big difference. Very thin and poor.

You know why? Because TV-speakers ARE thin and poor... What you are saying is that a Dacia Sandero isn't as nice as a Merc C-class...

I love how everyone demands 5.1 audio when life itself is practically stereo...

Have you guys ever heard this sound engine test with the barber? Completely believable positional audio achieved with stereo... How? Just by slight adjustments in frequency and volume, just like your ears would hear it...

the best scenario for that type of positioning is headphones, with speakers is not the same case.

do you know how they achieve that with headphones?

the brain interprets signals from both ears, analyzes volume, arrival time and many other things, thats how your brain perceives positional audio.

that barber shop test, is making the brain think like you are not with the headphones.

but do it with speakers and its not the same, on top if it if you do not close your eyes and there are more noises in the enviroment it will sound even worse.

without headphones the only option is more than 4 speakers, if not, then its useless you make positional sound only for headphones.

that sort of positional sound for headphones its like activating game dolby pro logic in my amp, not even close to real discrete channel surround.

a modern day game like lfs with all its great features, must have surround sound, well implemented.

if life for you is basically stereo i think you dont know what you are saying, or you have never payed attention to life, and sounds.

for the ones that do NOT want 5.1 well, they are fine now.

but we are a lot of us who want it and the day it will come, the stereo fanboys will be using surround.

As I said, I own 5.1 hardware for both my PC and my TV. And yes, its sounds great, and really adds to most games and films.

But you don't have the positional audio perception when you are racing. Even in a road car at high revs/speed you won't be able to tell where cars are without looking, other than basic left/right/proximity.

If it was in LFS I'd probably use it, to make use of the advantage it would give. But it would be less realistic, and it would be a waste of processing time (albeit not much processing time), and it would be a waste of programming time.

"Even iRacing has it". Obviously iRacing doesn't always get it right

basic left, right, front and rear

it wouldnt be any processing waste, it would be more realistic and it would not be a waste of processing time.

if other games get it bad ok, but lfs can get it right.

I assure you that you cannot tell front and rear positioning via sound.

It would be a waste, as the whole point is that it ISN'T realistic. You wouldn't know, so take my word on this matter.

im sorry but i cant take your word, because no matter what you have in your head, the sound will still travel, by bone, flesh, plastic, whatever.

and if you dont have good positioning, it is still there, and you can hear it, but not coming from front of you like with 2 speakers.

its all around you, in the vibrations.

i cant make it clearer, sound waves are just there, all around you, infinite sources, road, tyres, ambient, motor, people, even if you cant hear them, they are, and they affect your perception over the other sounds or vibrations you feel.

with stereo speakers they only come from 2 sources, its not that hard to figure out that the more speakers you have , with well implemented mixing, will give you a much richer sound experience, and more realistic, in any possible way.

im not saying that surround must be implemented to hear the positions of the cars, im saying that it must be implemented in a realistic way, a way that it will translate the sensations of real driving, the kind that with 2 speakers is impossible.

Seriously - go on a track day, or one of those driving day things that are becoming very popular... Try it...

i will when i can.

but here is an example, look at your videos driving, recorded from over your head.

well, if you tell me that racing sounds like that then you got me.

that sound is plain stereo.

haha, but you cant be serious, i mean i have a good sound system, and unless i put headphones, the sound in your videos while watching them is totally unrealistic, it loses all its ambience.

you cant be serious or you have some serious hearing problem :P

I have good hearing, and the sound in the videos is pretty much what it sounds like in the cockpit (but the engine note is also muffled, especially the higher pitch notes).

i understant but it cant be the same with 2 speakers than actually being there, it cant possibly be the same, apart from the muffling.

i mean, speakers are something very directional, and having 2 of them only worsens the situation.

while in reality, muffled or not, helmet or not, the sounds its just there, im not talking about directionality any more, i think its more like an ambience thing, dont you think? obvously there has to be some primitive directionality in the sound, and the feeling of the sound, that cannot be reproduced in stereo (unless serious speakers), but with a subwoofer, the bumps in the road, all that can be much greater, and not an unrealistic way by any means if done right.

Quote from bbman :

You know why? Because TV-speakers ARE thin and poor... What you are saying is that a Dacia Sandero isn't as nice as a Merc C-class...

Bad example perhaps but i mean the difference between several speakers than only two speakers. Huge different in the immersion. Sure the tellys speaker are thin and all
Same if you take headphones connected to a pc and change the soundfield between stereo vs multichannel/5.1. Talk about difference there too

My soundcard (x-fi xtreme gamer) can simulate 3D surround sound from only two channel so its not so bad after all. But i would be more than glad if lfs could be shipped with real surround sound

A well designed and implemented surround sound setup is going to sound way better than stereo sound. just because you have a 5.1 doesn't mean your gonna get any useful info you could use from a race. you will get aural info that makes you more immersed.

YOU got the point ekr

Don't most 5.1 systems enable you to mix the front left-right channels with the others, so you get the sound from all speakers? That would solve your problem - the same level of information in the sound (a realistic amount), but from all around you?

Or buy some narrower (but taller) speakers so that the sound is less directional.

its not the same, because using the simulated surround is, well, simulated.

i never liked it.

but i got to tell the truth, with headphones it works really good.

real surround, in discrete channels its the way to go for total inmersion.

If LFS outputted binaural sound, all you would need is a pair of good headphones, and a subwoofer for really low sounds.

ekr2940 = lala

Quote :

All you need is a pair of good headphones, and a subwoofer for really low sounds.

head phones are good to up to a certain point, but 5.1 and 7.1 have a higher potential.

the whole helmet argument is just silly, its prob one of the most weakest arguments against full 3d sound. just because you can't distinguish and locate other cars @ 7000Rpm in a pack doesn't mean its going to be the case for every other car. even so the surround sound would be a simulation not an emulation. hes not gonna program the outcome, hes going to write it so it sees its own outcome(which sounds come from which speakers). which means if your at 7000rpm at the end of blkwood straight in a pack what comes out of the speakers and which speakers is going to be purely based on "reality". so if you say, basically more or less the same sound is going to come out of all the speakers, i say lets let the simulation determine that.

i mean i do agree with you that if your going into T1 or in a pack of +3, that the sound isn't gonna help you locate and i doubt that if u took your helmet off your gonna turn into a bat and have echo location.

when i am driving along, in my or a friends car, doing some spirited driving, i am never confused about where my engine or my exhaust is. if i am 9400rpm i know where the sounds are coming from. if i am at 6000Rpm 24psi wastegate open i can even tell which side its(wastegate) on.
so surround sound does have some merrit in my book.

the problem is, LFS right now in the sound department is missing soo much that could make it better. And as a result adding 3D sound would not do much, it would still sound like crap, relative to reality.

For it too sound better it would need all the sounds its currently missing(quite a few, to tired to list)aswell as the 3d sound and EAX5 to get the sounds to "mesh" currectly for the enviroment aswell as how they sound as they move through it. this is why i say its has to be well designed and well implemented.

its little subtle things like that, that will make it stand out and draw people to it. even though you may not really "need" them, their presence helps draws you in because u can relate too it.

Quote from lalathegreat :

head phones are good to up to a certain point, but 5.1 and 7.1 have a higher potential.

I meant with proper binaural sound.

Quote from lalathegreat :

when i am driving along, in my or a friends car, doing some spirited driving, i am never confused about where my engine or my exhaust is. if i am 9400rpm i know where the sounds are coming from. if i am at 6000Rpm 24psi wastegate open i can even tell which side its(wastegate) on.

That's why LFS needs to implement binaural, two channel sound. You hear from two channels, so a binaural recording is the way to go. 5.1 Channel sound cannot give you the same input that binaural two channel sound can.

binaural is only good with headphones, you cant simply exclude all the people that dont use headphones.

Quote from ramirom :

binaural is only good with headphones, you cant simply exclude all the people that dont use headphones.

Just because binaural sound sound best with headphones doesn't mean you must use headphones. All that binaural sound would do is give people who do use headphones better sound. You don't have to use headphones to listen to binaural sound. Anyway, 5.1 Channel sound would slow the performance of people who use 2 Channel sound, because the audio would have to be downsampled from 5.1 channels to two channels. Anyway, in many movies, all of the dialog is shoved into the center channel.

slow down the performance? that is a joke right?

and it doesnt need to be downsampled, there are separate audio tracks for stereo and for 5.1.

you can only take the ADVANTAGE of binaural with headphones, for the speaker users it would be like using simulated surround via the receiver.

Quote from ramirom :

you can only take the ADVANTAGE of binaural with headphones, for the speaker users it would be like using simulated surround via the receiver.

So what? Some people don't even have speakers, but that doesn't mean LFS shouldn't have sound at all.

EDIT: I tested out that virtual barbershop with my speakers, and it didn't sound horrible. It was very difficult to tell the difference between stuff being behind me or in front of me, though. But it's not like listening to binaural sound through speakers will sound bad.

you cant say so what because people dont even have speakers, thats the minority, the majority uses speakers.

you said it, it will not be the same, the real solution is real surruound sound, and stereo.