Ok, but as-is what?
It's not going to be copied straight from a single specific model. And if it isn't, it might as well rid itself of those limitations and be the best quintessential muscle car it can be by taking the best of all muscle cars ever made. At that point (being a completely synthetic design) I don't see any good enough reason not to have it in the LRF class, whether it's a vintage or modern/retro design.

I agree the handicap measures are probably good enough in terms of laptimes, but they're just substitutes, crutches. I think they would detract from the car "as-is" and too easily kill the car's character. Driving a GTR in the FF-GTR class is sort of extreme, but that's really what an amc would feel like. If it's hard to design an amc to fit in LRF, I think it'd be even harder to make it so it would be just as fun unrestricted as not. And TBH I think if it's introduced in a separate class, it won't be as popular as some other alternative models could have been.

"As-is" would be a power/weight ratio that matches the actual cars. The 65 Mustang and 67 Camaro both have a power/weight ratio of about 250hp/ton, so that seems like a pretty good place to start. Obviously it'd need a V8 engine base (duh).

The rest of it can be messed around with.

I don't see why it can't have modern tires. Its not like the XRT has tires from 1989 and the RAC has tires from 2005. I imagined that a 350HP+ amc would compete with the fz50 and the RAC not the xrt or fxo. oh and dajmin we're talking amc (american muscle car) not AMC the car manufacturer.

Quote from Breizh :

-And it's better than a whole new class, unless Scavier can manage 2/3 new cars for this specific class at the same time.. Which is a less interesting proposition than e.g. 1 new car for 2/3 classes we already have.

Just by adding support for multi-class racing into LFS would be enough to make people interested about multicar racing (like LX4/6, tbo/lrf etc.), just grouping the race results per car classes and then setting lfsw so that "a group" win would really count as a 1st position instead of 6th or 7th in the overall race results etc. would greatly improve the multicar racing system. With a system like that in place would allow a new car class to be put over the lrf without splitting current amount of 3 lrf drivers between two classes. But I agree that a new car class wouldn't really work now, but it would work with multi-car racing support within lfs.

Quote from Breizh :

I'm not a car dynamics specialist at all. But it ought to be doable, as far as I can guess, because the whole car is free to be designed to fit the class. That means gear ratios and engine character, specific chassis and suspension design, etc etc. All the quantitative is up to Scavier, and the only criteria is qualitative: that it conform to amc character. I don't have any hard evidence to back up this gut feeling, but although I see it could end up being pretty hairy, I think it's doable. Can you be more specific or give a precise example of why the setup offset problem would be unsolvable?

Do you really think that Scavier couldn't come up with some combination of parts that'd stop it from getting too far off the mean laptimes?

There are few things that are quite hard to balance. One is the tires, essentially the different grip levels. I'm guessing that someone who has ran decent amount of laps in the GTRs with R2s and R4s could tell what kind lap time differences might be expected between different tires. But then again the slipperier tires might be enough to offset the better weight/power ratio between the amc and the rest of lrfs... As the amc is a fast car it would be the quickest car on the straight but it would also have the longest braking distances and slowest corner speeds.

Then there is the setup. I'd imagine that the RAC comes with quite a lot adjustability and the FZ50 would have some too (thinking about how the setup adjustability would be if the road cars were realistically limited in this respect...). How much adjustability would an amc have? What I'm saying really is that it would be far easier and sensible to add a modern car instead of putting small improvements to the amc to make it competitive and then getthe class balanced - what you end up might be very close to a modern car, which really means that it is front engined fz50 in disguise.

What I'm really saying is that the best car to add into lrf is a modern rwd car with the engine in the front. I'm not saying that a vintage muscle car is not possible to make fit into the lrf, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be sensible addition to that class.

But then again I tried adding 200kg on the nose of the fz50 and making the engine a tad more muscular with the lfstune and with normal roadies it was quite fun car to drive. Although it wasn't as fun as a 550bhp FZ60 or 450bhp XRTt

(I know, I once again got a bit carried away with the lfstune. As I was tweaking the specs, the first few hundred bhps added speed, then the next few hundreds added wheelspin, the rest above 600 seemed to just increase the amount of smoke )

Quote from Hyperactive :

Just by adding support for multi-class racing into LFS would be enough to make people interested about multicar racing (like LX4/6, tbo/lrf etc.), just grouping the race results per car classes and then setting lfsw so that "a group" win would really count as a 1st position instead of 6th or 7th in the overall race results etc. would greatly improve the multicar racing system. With a system like that in place would allow a new car class to be put over the lrf without splitting current amount of 3 lrf drivers between two classes. But I agree that a new car class wouldn't really work now, but it would work with multi-car racing support within lfs.

No. As things are in LFS, extra classes just turns the races into obstacle courses. There isn't the real life ambience nor sufficient player slots to make multi class races fun. I won't deny that Scavier could very well make additions in a coming patch that would make it a worthwhile addition.... But as things are now, it's not a good enough reason to add a muscle car in a separate class. It just won't be fun, it'll just be an ephemerous novelty. Not unless the AMC is in a class very nearly competitive with the present LRF (so that an insim handicap scheme can be used to race the amc against LRF without killing the amc's fun factor)... and that would probably be a waste. If a new class is made, it has to be different enough. e.g. Supercars, which would be more suitable for modern "muscle cars" like the corvette or viper. We have to remember that we're not after any specific brands like Vette or Viper or Dodge or BMW or M-Benz.. What we're after is what the cars drive like, their unique character. It's the character of each of these cars that makes their brand a credible badge, not the other way around. Any car that makes for a unique enough driving experience ought to have a spot in the LFS carset. Priority should go to whichever addition is most fun to race with the rest of the carset. I think a muscle car would be more fun in the LRF class than any other new car.
...

Quote from Hyperactive :

There are few things that are quite hard to balance. One is the tires, essentially the different grip levels. I'm guessing that someone who has ran decent amount of laps in the GTRs with R2s and R4s could tell what kind lap time differences might be expected between different tires. But then again the slipperier tires might be enough to offset the better weight/power ratio between the amc and the rest of lrfs... As the amc is a fast car it would be the quickest car on the straight but it would also have the longest braking distances and slowest corner speeds.

Sounds simple enough (at this point) to simply balance cornering handicap versus straight line advantage... This is what the Fz50 was to the RAC and LX6 when it was added. In our present case, the AMC would probably turn out to be a good companion to the FZ.

Quote :

Then there is the setup. I'd imagine that the RAC comes with quite a lot adjustability and the FZ50 would have some too (thinking about how the setup adjustability would be if the road cars were realistically limited in this respect...). How much adjustability would an amc have?

How much adjustability an amc would get depends on whether it's completely vintage, or vintage+aftermarket mods, or modern (there's also the question of whether the present road cars in LFS "deserve" all the adjustability they have) Myself, I personaly don't have any preference for either of those three muscle car variants. As long as the AMC gets a fire breathing engine, and is fun, and can compete.. It's good enough.

Quote :

What I'm saying really is that it would be far easier and sensible to add a modern car instead of putting small improvements to the amc to make it competitive and then getthe class balanced - what you end up might be very close to a modern car, which really means that it is front engined fz50 in disguise.

I don't agree that a modern AMC would be an overpowered FR Fz50 in disguise.. Not in the sense that it's nothing new. There's no FR sports car in LFS yet. The XRT for all its fortitude is still just an econobox. The LX is in a different league, it's the opposite of an AMC except for its FR layout. It's a sports car, but not redundant with what an AMC would be like to drive and race. The Fz50 isn't just an RR AMC. If that were true, Porsche 911s would be "just BMW 3series ripoffs"

Quote :

What I'm really saying is that the best car to add into lrf is a modern rwd car with the engine in the front. I'm not saying that a vintage muscle car is not possible to make fit into the lrf, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be sensible addition to that class.

But the current carset sort of precludes the only real alternatives.. : The LRF class already has an MR sports car, an FR pure sports car could fit into LRF but could just as well fit into a new Supercar class, (and this is the critical point: ) a muscle car is both unique (would be fun enough to warrant inclusion) and unable to compete anywhere else but in the LRF class; TBO is too slow, and Supercar is way too fast. So the AMC should get the LRF spot, unless you see another car that's more worthy? I think the carset as it is is begging for a big block engine, and I think a muscle car would be the most user friendly and fun candidate.

Quote :

But then again I tried adding 200kg on the nose of the fz50 and making the engine a tad more muscular with the lfstune and with normal roadies it was quite fun car to drive. Although it wasn't as fun as a 550bhp FZ60 or 450bhp XRTt

(I know, I once again got a bit carried away with the lfstune. As I was tweaking the specs, the first few hundred bhps added speed, then the next few hundreds added wheelspin, the rest above 600 seemed to just increase the amount of smoke )

What do you think would be a more sensible addition to the LRF class? I'm not against a modern muscle car, but I think it'd be better to add a vintage one so as to leave more space between what's probably an inevitable FR sports car like the Corvette or M3, etc - better handling FR sports cars.
I also tweaked a corvette that'd fit into the LRF class, and it was a blast to race against them. It was the only car in the class that was completely user friendly by virtue of its FR layout, tractable engine, and forgiving tires.

Quote from Breizh :

Sounds simple enough (at this point) to simply balance cornering handicap versus straight line advantage... This is what the Fz50 was to the RAC and LX6 when it was added. In our present case, the AMC would probably turn out to be a good companion to the FZ.

...which already makes it strange. The FZ50 is very close to that one 996 (or 911?) porsche gt3 in specs. I really can't see a muscle with anything vintage in it challenging a porsche gt3 . But then again I openly admit that I don't know how fast some vintage race prepped mustangs or camaros are/were...

Quote from Breizh :

I don't agree that a modern AMC would be an overpowered FR Fz50 in disguise.. Not in the sense that it's nothing new. There's no FR sports car in LFS yet. The XRT for all its fortitude is still just an econobox. The LX is in a different league, it's the opposite of an AMC except for its FR layout. It's a sports car, but not redundant with what an AMC would be like to drive and race. The Fz50 isn't just an RR AMC. If that were true, Porsche 911s would be "just BMW 3series ripoffs"

What I meant by that "fz50 in disguise" was that it wouldn't matter at all what the car would look like or aimed to be alike - it would be a strangely fast rwd front engined sportscar that handles like a modern muscle car except it has the looks of vintage racer. If you'd look at the FZ50, what exactly makes it modern? Would it be vintage with slighly different body, less grippy tires and lower revving engine? Because getting further than that requires quite a bit adding stuff into lfs, especially suspension and tires to produce a car that has the characteristics a vintage muscle car has, without offering the setup options to "smoothen" them all out.

Quote from Breizh :

But the current carset sort of precludes the only real alternatives.. : The LRF class already has an MR sports car, an FR pure sports car could fit into LRF but could just as well fit into a new Supercar class, (and this is the critical point: ) a muscle car is both unique (would be fun enough to warrant inclusion) and unable to compete anywhere else but in the LRF class; TBO is too slow, and Supercar is way too fast. So the AMC should get the LRF spot, unless you see another car that's more worthy? I think the carset as it is is begging for a big block engine, and I think a muscle car would be the most user friendly and fun candidate.

I still think a more modern fr layout car would fit better into lrf class, simply because what the lrf class is. just being vintage doesn't make it better than some other choises. Few other alternatives are a more powerful car that drifters could use too. But then lfs already has japanese cars rb4/xrt so another japanese (with 4cyl I4) wouldn't add anything. The FZ50 and RAC along with the LX6 are all european so maybe the addon car could be european as well. Maybe italian (ferrari 250gto)

Quote from Breizh :

What do you think would be a more sensible addition to the LRF class? I'm not against a modern muscle car, but I think it'd be better to add a vintage one so as to leave more space between what's probably an inevitable FR sports car like the Corvette or M3, etc - better handling FR sports cars.
I also tweaked a corvette that'd fit into the LRF class, and it was a blast to race against them. It was the only car in the class that was completely user friendly by virtue of its FR layout, tractable engine, and forgiving tires.

Aside from the obvious M3, something else to look for could be something vintage without being muscle. Like the already mentioned ferrari 250gto, or muscle one like the daytona coupe. As for modern ones, what about supras, RX-7s, 300zx or even skylines (alikes of course) or even cars like porsche 928? Defenately needs to be front engined, preferrably rwd although I'm sure one peculiar member would have very wide smile if a car like dodge neon (srt-4 ) would make it's way in the lrf class. Maybe even something like pontiac firebird or modern camaro but that's streching it a bit, or dunno, a vintage muscle car just imho doesn't fit and couldn't fit

"a strangely fast rwd front engined sportscar that handles like a modern muscle car except it has the looks of vintage racer. "
Definitely not what I'm arguing for..

The appeal of a muscle car that I find puts it above the rest of the cars is this:
1) It has a big engine. So far the only comparable engine in LFS is in the F08. The FZ engine is just 3.6 liters and is a flat-6. Nothing like what a traditional american block is like. A block like that's fun to race with, the same way the FZ's engine is fun now, compared to the rest of the engines in any of the other LFS road cars.
2) The character of the car, and how much of it it has. Putting that sort of engine and the chassis together makes for a sort of car that's like no other. That doesn't mean it's better than everything else; what I'm saying is it's really unique. And is it fun? It is.. Even if you don't fall head over heels for it, having such a different animal racing along side the rest of the pack would be a lot of fun.

So, I don't think it has to be vintage. Vintage gets mentioned so much only because it was a golden age where those cars really got to be at their best. I doubt today's iterations will differ much in character, though, I admit. But a vintage car would be really unique in LFS.. It'd have more or less the same character as a modern one, and would have all the vintage qualities that no other car in LFS would have.. The feel of the steering and chassis, etc. Wouldn't the Ford GT500 be fast enough?
Another thing.. It's obvious that the less well a muscle car would handle, the more it'd have to be powerful to balance that out, and the more difficult it'd be to balance with the rest of the LRF class. And if even a GT500 can't compete, I can't imagine that one of the recent retro muscle cars (one of the top models like the challenger SRT8) couldn't keep up with an FZ.

Quote :

If you'd look at the FZ50, what exactly makes it modern? Would it be vintage with slighly different body, less grippy tires and lower revving engine?

I just don't think so. The FZ is modern by its chassis and engine power/size ratio... The chassis is sophisticated; at least relative to leafsprings and solid axles etc. The bodywork is aerodynamic. How is a 993/6 not modern?

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getting further than that requires quite a bit adding stuff into lfs, especially suspension and tires to produce a car that has the characteristics a vintage muscle car has, without offering the setup options to "smoothen" them all out.

Adding more stuff to LFS is fine.. I don't know much, but I doubt it's really a huge task to add leafsprings or solid axles. It wouldn't be necessary for the modern muscle cars. e.g. the present Challenger is independent up front and 5-link in the back. The electronics for a skyline would be more difficult by far, I think. Muscle cars are pretty simple animals.

Adding another typicaly european car to the LRF class because the LRF class is already european.. That's arguing for less diversity, which is the opposite of what LFS needs, imo. A supra or RX7 or 300ZX would just be bigger faster XRTs. The Supra and 928 sorta stand out thanks to their engine (by now the chassis are pretty dated tho), but if that's their appeal, why not just go right out for that far end of the spectrum, with a muscle car? That'd cover a lot more of the full sports car spectrum in the LRF performance range.
A Skyline would definitely be a lot of fun.. It would probably win a lot more players over than a muscle car, although it'd probably have to be less powerful (reducing agility would remove the appeal of the car) than the real one to stay in LRF range. But both are potentialy really popular choices, I think, and they both bring a lot more novelty and variety to the carset than the others mentioned. Adding both would really be awesome.

Quote from Breizh :

So, I don't think it has to be vintage. Vintage gets mentioned so much only because it was a golden age where those cars really got to be at their best. I doubt today's iterations will differ much in character, though, I admit. But a vintage car would be really unique in LFS.. It'd have more or less the same character as a modern one, and would have all the vintage qualities that no other car in LFS would have.. The feel of the steering and chassis, etc. Wouldn't the Ford GT500 be fast enough?

Iit would make good addon in the lrf, only if it wasn't too fast. I have no idea how well the top gear lap charts measure the cars' performance but I'd bet that the gt500 is quicker than the fz50, simply because it would have the same tires and more weight and way over 100bhp more power (less than 500 though...). For mustangs, the GT-H with 320bhp might be more suitable for the lrf, although it might be too slow because of the weight... Maybe something more fitting and easier to mimic would be the earlier generation of the mustangs, the SN-95 2 Supercharged SVT Cobra (390bhp/1660kg :razz.

Dunno really. I really can't see a vintage muscle car fitting into lrf by any means but that's not what you're saying either . And I'd really save the whole muscle car theme for a car that created a totally new class and the car could be made up so that it would really be that brute that were raced and driven hard 30 years ago, a real muscle car true to its origins. As for the lrf class, I'd put some fr car into the lrf class that would go in the middle of the fz and ra instead of over the fz50. A car like bmw m3 or the supra.

Or, I mean, something alike those cars.