See Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, or Magny-Course, they jump over the curbs in the chicane all the time. No more then everybody does in LFS. It's part of racing; using as much track as possible. As long as there are at least 2 wheels on the curbs..
But the point isn't the cutting. The point is that the chicanes are just flat-out suspension killers, instead of chicanes.
even the f1 teams were unsure if not having 2 wheels on track in magny course is ok with the stewards this year so its very much up for debate which way through a chicane is acceptable
Yes, very true. But, they aren't taking massively high curbs at 120+mph. Maybe at half that speed.
Yes, better damage models will help the situation and so will changeable track conditions. If somebody drags dirt onto the track because they cut, then everybody pays the price because you lose grip.
But the main point is that some of the chicanes out there demand that you take them mostly flat out and that you take as much curb as possible to do it. In real life, not only would your suspension be damaged, but you would most likely crash. Real racing faces the same problems. Drivers will take big risks and push things past the point of sanity to win. We've all seen it. That is why just asking people to not take so much curb doesn't work. A simple redesign of some of the more problematic chicanes would be a step in the right direction while we wait for the more difficult dynamic changes to the physics modeling. And honestly, it would make tracks like FE much more enjoyable to drive. It would be more technical and demanding. FE is one of the best tracks out there with some really cool corners. The chicanes ruin it for some because no matter how good you are on the rest of the track, blasting through the chicane is the only way to get a competitive time.
It would really seem that Eric seems to think so...
It is essentially the track and the car that dictates the good line around the track, the drivers just try to find that fastest line. If you can safely gain up to 0.5 secs in one corner you will do it, especially if it is actually safer to cut that drive correctly. The KY3 "chicane" or "esses" or what ever they might be called is the best example of that. If you drive the corner while keeping two wheels always on tarmac you will most probably flip the car (GTRs) due to the kerbs. Or spin the car due to the bug in the kerb edge. But most certainly you will lose time and position(s) because you lose momentum for the next straights. Almost all of this applies to all "chicanes" in LFS. They are designed so that there is just one fast line through and it requires cutting. It is the nature of the tracks in LFS. Another prime example are the fern bay "chicanes" places in the middle of fast straights. Awfully dangerous, even with talented and thoughtful drivers. Might be a challenge to the driver to get it right in hotlapping but other than that it fails in being a challenging set of corners ending up a case about the track having a design flaw.
The same people manage to drive just fine on tracks where you can't gain huge chunks of time by driving a line through a corner that may seem like it was supposed to be driven that way. And if anything LFS tracks )even with the low amount of the tracks available) manage to have a lot of that kind of corners you will very rarely see on real life tracks.
Tracks like Aston, Kyoto or even Blackwood hardly can be classified as club tracks, they are quite easily identified as tracks meant for GT class and powerful single seater cars and yet they seem to have quite a lot of these club track chicanes. And when you look at the more club alike tracks in LFS, like fern bay, they are absolutely riddled with these chicanes. Sure there are and have been LFS-alike chicanes in real life, even on fast tracks (old silverstone, adelaide, old imola to mention a few) but at least the chicanes there have been designed with the wide track in mind. And as for the real club track chicanes, the track themselves are a lot narrower and the chicanes a lot tighter, even if they seem very quick in real life.
In the end it is about making the LFS tracks more enjoyable and challenging to drive, not about reactionary track redesign. A track should not be changed because I, or someone else, doesn't like a corner or two, but a track should be changed if a corner or two constantly cause issues and troubles to racers, marshalling and race organizations, or to even normal racers trying to drive according what is considered correct.
Everyone who has ever tried to create a track by themselves using 3dsmax or bob's track builder have come across the same issues we are talking about here. You change the track because you don't like it. And sometimes a corner or two is left to the published design which are later found to be problematic. If you look at LFS' tracks you will see very clearly that they have not been designed to be difficult to drive, they are extremely wide, corners have big constant radiuses and straights are always straight and "chicanes" always allow quite straight line through and on some cases there are corners which clearly need a fix or two. Maybe the reason why the corners in LFS re what they are is an issue that derives itself from the tire physics before the BF1 patch when the downforce cars essentially were quite difficult to drive on slow corners, lack of longitudal grip... or maybe Eric just likes fast tracks...
Anyways, the chicanes on fern bay straights and the KY3 chicanes need a redesign along with few corners because all they produce is trouble. But then again, in the larger picture people may disagree wether it is worth the effort to totally fix the tracks in LFS when the game itself is in huge need of new venues to race on. (or because the redesign effort put into these tracks don't reallt seem to fix the problems with the tracks).
Nobody drives around curbs in real life, they cross them, bounce off them and use them to help cornering. Hitting curbs is not cutting. The curbs are a part of the track, they are not out of bounds.
Not sure why you are making an argument out of my post, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying and I'm not arguing against any of your points. Some of the things you have said in reply to my post seem to indicate that you have missed my point entirely. But that's OK.
Everyone can continue with their little whinge now.
You have clearly stated that the problem, from your pov, seems to be the people driving the tracks "wrong", or like you said; "stupid way many people drive the tracks". What I'm saying is that the way you need to drive the tracks in LFS is because of what and how the tracks are.
I'm not against track redesigns hyper puts the point across very well.
A couple of points that stick in my mind though. In sim racing we take things to the ragged edge always! In our driving and in the interpretation of rules. While you do see two tyres off the track irl I don't ever recall seeing it to the extent we see in LFS and I don't believe that is just down to track design.
I believe one of the reasons we see it is that in any sim you just aren't subject to forces anywhere like you are irl. By that I mean steering ffb is weak even at high settings, irl if you were to go over curbs similar to say the one exiting the first S's at BL1 a driver would be having a hell of a time physically just keeping the car in a straight line as the forces through the wheel would be trying to rip the wheel out of his hands. In LFS the forces generated through ffb are hardly a hindrance at all and for the majority that use low settings it isn't even worth mentioning.
Secondly as has been mentioned I don't think it is as clear cut as people accept broadly in LFS about what is legal and illegal track usage. In LFS the majority have seemly concluded that two wheels off track is legal in all cases and 100% legit, irl I don't believe that is the case at all. Different race serries and even individual events will have clarification rulings on what is legal and imo it is illegal to put two tyres off track with exceptions being allowed by certain serries/race marshals.
Generally the definition of track is the outside of the white line on straights and corners without curbs and the outside of the curb. It is also stated that you should remain within the boundaries of the track while racing. I have failed (after an hour long search) to find any rule indicating it is normal and reasonable to take corners with two wheels off track or for that matter even mentions two wheels off track, if you have seen such rules please post a link so I can see.
I can't talk from the experience of S1 and S2 so I vote based on the information that has been presented. I think the chicane in BL1 is perfect. If the other chicanes are less of a challenge they do (in my opinion) need to be re-designed.
I must also agree with Gunn, hitting a curb is part of a race, the curb is a part of the track and every race I have seen involves someone clipping the curbs.
Using the curb is a very important part of racing both IRL and in the sim. However, there are certain curbs you stay off of because they will badly upset the car or cause damage IRL. The chicanes we are talking about in LFS are either very tall and would damage a real car and are taken at extreme high speed (120+mph), or are very wide and low but have the "sleeping policeman" (as David Hobbs calls them) speed bumps on them. People find ways of jumping those curbs in LFS. If the chicanes were redesigned a tad, it would eliminate some of that problem (not all of it for sure... a lot of it is because it is a sim).
You will see this at Blackwood too. The last curb on the right at the exit of the chicane is always completely jumped when people are hot lapping and also a lot in the race. You can gain a real time advantage by doing that because you carry that speed all the way down the straight. I think that chicane is pretty challenging if you drive the real world line through it. But it gets a lot easier and faster if you jump that last curb. Just watch some hotlaps to see what I mean.
@gunn, i don't think you're fully grasping our term 'cut'. a perfect example of this is the chicane just coming off the oval part of ky long. this chicane can be taken flat - or close - in most cars. the thing is here, that it is hlvc, even if you 'cut' and hit those stupid metal things on the inside. i understand if you thought we were talking about cutting, as in purposely driving off the track to gain an advantage, but we're not. it's merely a 'cut', which is hlvc valid, but it ruins your suspension, and it's dangerous tbh. if someone tries to pass there, you can guarantee a car will be off the track, not only that, but if you're sitting close behind when racing in cars with downforce, you find yourself just going straight from their dirty air. that's fair enough if it happened to be a flatout sweeper, but it's not (even though most of us take it like one).. it's meant to be a chicane that we are supposed to slow down for.
i think the point that rudy is trying to make, is that the chicanes are just way too fast to be called a chicane, and we need them to be a tighter radius and blah blah blah
not sure why you're whinging... taking a look at your stats you have: Last race information: (date n/a)
Travelled distance:47 Km
Fuel burnt:10 Ltr
Laps:0
the only reason that i'm putting those stats up, is that you attacked us racing drivers personally by saying that we're a 'poor design'. but what would you know? how do you know how we take corners? if you had have had atleast some valid stats, i'd almost agree that some of us drive in an irresponsible manner, but they get penalized. anyway, just saying, maybe you should just keep your opinions to yourself next time
Aston's chicane at grand prix track by the old pits or what ever you wanna call it, is ok, you have to slow down pretty much or you hit the tires into the restricted area.
Hallen, thanks for the info. Some of it I did know and some of it I didn't know. I have watched a few replays and video's but I will admit, not that many. I myself try to use the curbs at BL1, a challenge sometimes that I find rewarding. I can understand some peoples pains about curbs being jumped. I do think that high curbs are a part of the game and if they do damage avoid hitting them.
Yes, but they were made for safety reasons. The first 50 years of car racing did without chicanes. They do not necessarily make racing more interesting.
I do agree with other posters that there's something wrong if chicanes are taken flat-out. I especially hate the bus-stop chicanes in Fern Bay, where you need to cut the curbs (and risk crashing) if you want to be competitive.
I'm not sure if converting them to low-speed "real" chicanes is a good solution. I can't imagine this would give interesting fights, especially with lower-powered cars where you don't have to feather the gas on curve exit. Instead, can't they be turned into high-speed esses with high curbs, like in Blackwood?
I think what he's saying is, that in real life at point on a track, i.e. a chicane, where liberties are taken, i.e. cutting (cutting is regarded as having all four wheels off the track. At least two wheels are to be on the track. The kerb is not the track.), a steward is stationed. If he notices a driver cutting deliberately that driver will/could be given a warning. If he does it again he will/could be black flagged! His race will/could be over. The stewards would have discretion. RAC Competitions rules. I don't know about the rest of the world.
That's exactly it different stewards and events classes will have varying levels of strictness of these rules and will also interperet them slightly differently. I've read rules which imply the outer part of a curb is considered the outer perimiter of the circuit so that would cause a different interpretation to two wheels must be on tarmac as you interperet RAC rules. In such cases pre race meetings would clarify these interpretations for the drivers.
In LFS public races there is no clarification of server rules in general and the interpretation is left to the drivers who as Duck has stated will take them to breaking point. Which ultimately means that the majority think that two wheels on the grass is fine but four wheels on the grass is cutting. In real life racing I don't think it is so easy, I'm more inclined to think that if more than half the body width of the car has passed outside of the boundry of the track that it would be regarded as cutting by most stewards if done frequently. In LFS it is common to see the inside tyres just on the perimiter of the track with 90% of the car off track, which irl if done lap after lap I believe would be interpreted as cutting.
You're quite right, stewards interpret the rules. Basically, they're looking for the piss takers or the downright dangerous!
Maybe in LFS we need our governing body,the Devs, to state what they think is 'legal' and put in place a method of punishment much the same way as speeding in the pitlane, failing to pit etc. but ditch the arcadey messages splashed across the screen. (that's a different subject though) Even if it was a server option like no resetting or compulsory pitting at least it would stop the ongoing, never ending 'cutting' debate.
EDIT: It would eliminate the need for tyre stacks as well.
But it wouldn't work because of few things:
- penalties would be given by ai, or scripts and triggers. There is huge chance that majority of penalties on first laps would be harsh or unneeded as well as decent amount of all penalties as well because ai can't make a difference between accident avoidance, loss of control, accidental cut by just few millimetres and straight-forward cutting with no intention to even stay ont track.
- penalties given by humans need a lot of admins per race to make it work. Admins are too busy on other stuff, and watching corners instead of racers is not really a working solution. And most of the time admin is not even present or watching
Personally I think that on those few corners where cutting is serious problem the error lies in the track design and it is easier to fix by fixing the error itself instead of creating an other system to reduce the effects of the error. Don't get me wrong though. The system Vic put in place is another great addon for LFS but it should not be used for trying to fix problems it can't fix . Nor should any ai-admin system be used because it doesn't fix the actual cause of the problems.
Tire stacks are an ok system, they clearly show where you can go. Although it would be even better if the tyre collision physics were much better and also bigger tire stacks were available.
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