Quote from wien :

I *think* the most recent Ubuntu has NTFS support out of the box.

IIRC it autodetected and mounted my drives ever since 7.something.
The NTFS problem was more with regard to my pendrive Fedora which despite being set to either english or german (can't remember which doesn't matter anyway) somehow thought a repository server somehwere in south Asia or wherever was the best choice for me (might have been South America which would have some logic to it if the OS was indeed set to german).
You have no idea how hard it is to figure out, that the reason why the driver you most certainly installed via the packetmanager doesnt work, even though you did everything right and your networktraffic is at idle after doing so, is becuase the repository is hosted on a 960baud modem and your internet line is not supposed to do nothing.

Quote :

Proprietary Nvidia drivers can be installed through the dialog under "System -> Administration -> Hardware Drivers" in Ubuntu (I'm sure other distros have something similar).

All Fedora had to offer at the time was a privately run repo that only had the drivers for older kernel version. (yay repositories)

Quote :

Hmm, maybe it's worth looking into mounting /usr/share, /usr/bin or just /usr to a different drive? You can do this during setup, or later with a bit more difficulty. I'm not sure where Matlab stores all its stuff so I can't advice further.

I've never actually run into any of these problems since my stabs at trying Linux never lasted long enough to get to the point where I'd install Matlab. but even though I'd like to be able to set the location of every single application and game on my PC manually instead having all of them in the same place.

Quote :

I agree to a certain extent, but I would absolutely love it if LFS stored setups and replays in my User directory like it should instead of in its own directory.

The whole storing things in user directories that has gotten so popular lately has become a complete nightmare for me when doing backups to reformat my PC. No I not only have to check the game's folder but also "My Documents" and the hidden "Application Data" folder in my account folder instead of just doing why I do with LFS which is copy paste the whole game.
Also thanks to LFS' fairly userfriendly implementation of what is essentially DRM you can always create tons of different LFS folders (at ~300MB a pop it will hardly eat up your drive) one for each specific use. I usually have a race folder a drift folder a mucking about with tweak and other mods folder and several others including stuff luke folders with lfs preconfigured to suit my wheel at either 720 or 270°.

Quote :

Most likely your screen isn't autodetected due to missing drivers?

Probably but it was only after activating the Nvidia drivers that the 640 bug showed its ugly arse (and it truely is disgusting... almost every gui menu that might help you fix the problem is too tall to fit into a 480 res... why it doesnt default back to a sensible resolution like 1024 is probably something only linux geeks understand).
Also ever single time I've used Ubuntu with several different monitors the 75 or 85Hz is use always end up being some random Numer at around 50 in the Gnome resolution switch utility.

Quote :

Personally I havent touched xorg.conf for at least a year. Intel and ATI cards can all be configured via the GUI in Gnome.

They can be except that the fairly useful Application that helps you set your monitor up within X (which btw has a profile for mine) only ever appears on screen in Ubuntu if you mess you xorg conf up while desperately trying to get all 5 buttons on your mouse in working order (don't get me started on this one). Presumably it cas also be started from the console if you know its name; why its not accessible via the system settings menu like in Fedora nd all you get instead is that completely useless resolution switcher will forever remain a mystery to me though.

Quote from CSU1 :

what info noob needs to know to keep a healthy system:

disk-space
network logs and alerts
Something to tell them everything about personal folders and filesystem folder access alerts
updates and overall performance and condition

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you've said there CSU1, I reckon you're pretty clued up on the whole thing, however this list annoys me for this reason:

Alerts. Far too many times in Windows specifically you are alerted when something goes right. I don't need to know that my LAN is connected. I don't need to know that Windows Defender is running. I don't need to know that I have no viruses. The only time I ever want to be alerted is when something goes wrong AND needs fixing. If it goes wrong but is fixed automatically I don't need to know. That really grinds my gears.

I switch my mac on (or open the lid from the other thread) and everything just works. No prompts, no alerts, no saying things have successfully updated, I'm just ready to go. And when I press the little button on my remote, Frontrow the admittedly bad, media center fades in (with no load times). Ahhhh how I love being a fanboy. Still can't play any decent games on the damn thing though.

Quote from pb32000 :

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you've said there CSU1, I reckon you're pretty clued up on the whole thing, however this list annoys me for this reason:

Alerts. Far too many times in Windows specifically you are alerted when something goes right. I don't need to know that my LAN is connected. I don't need to know that Windows Defender is running. I don't need to know that I have no viruses. The only time I ever want to be alerted is when something goes wrong AND needs fixing. If it goes wrong but is fixed automatically I don't need to know. That really grinds my gears.

yer, thats you though, your not a noob.

Avg. Joe needs to know alerts to feel safe and needs the man to tell him in a user friendly accessible way, in fact avg. Joe would feel safer paying for the privilege.

Ok, lets forget alerts and call it integration of basic systems managment into an accessible media type envoitment....or themes for ubunti.

Quote from Shotglass :

The whole storing things in user directories that has gotten so popular lately has become a complete nightmare for me when doing backups to reformat my PC. No I not only have to check the game's folder but also "My Documents" and the hidden "Application Data" folder in my account folder instead of just doing why I do with LFS which is copy paste the whole game.

Heh that's mildly amusing because I find this layout makes backups really, really easy. When all software uses this layout (like on Ubuntu) you can just wipe everything but home, reinstall, and your system is back exactly how it was. I do this every time I upgrade Ubuntu and it works a treat. The messy hybrid Windows has become isn't in anyones interest though, I'll give you that. Consistency, whatever the chosen approach is, is most important.

Quote from Shotglass :

Probably but it was only after activating the Nvidia drivers that the 640 bug showed its ugly arse

Ah well, that sounds bad indeed. I don't have an Nvidia card at the moment, so I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing that one.

Quote from Shotglass :

They can be except that the fairly useful Application that helps you set your monitor up within X (which btw has a profile for mine) only ever appears on screen in Ubuntu if you mess you xorg conf up while desperately trying to get all 5 buttons on your mouse in working order (don't get me started on this one).

"System -> Preferences -> Screen Resolution"? The Nvidia drivers also come with a control panel that may be better suited from them than the Gnome dialog. As for mouse buttons all 4 on my mouse seem to work out of the box, but I know this has traditionally has been difficult. X Input 2 is coming Any Day Now though and that should hopefully clean all this up once and for all. There's a lot of great stuff coming up for X in the coming year which will remove most (all?) of these legacy niggles.

Quote from wien :

Heh that's mildly amusing because I find this layout makes backups really, really easy. When all software uses this layout (like on Ubuntu) you can just wipe everything but home, reinstall, and your system is back exactly how it was.

I tend to prefer my drive free of any fragementation after a fresh install but maybe thats just me. Also the deleting everything but poses a bit of a hen egg problem.

Quote :

Ah well, that sounds bad indeed. I don't have an Nvidia card at the moment, so I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing that one.

I've no idea if its a Nvidia problem but it's far from being uncommon.
http://www.google.de/search?hl ... forums.org+ubuntu+640+480

Quote :

"System -> Preferences -> Screen Resolution"?

Isn't that this useless little thing which lets you change the resolution to something available in your xorg conf and nothing else? Wheres the advanced button like in Windows that lets me change the monitor "driver"? Wheres all the things you actually need under 'System' as opposed to not just preferences.
Also theres a perfectly good tool to set up network connection with in Lunix and unless something change lately its most noticeable property in Ubuntu is its absence so I still have to use pppoeconf from a shell to get my inet working.

Quote :

The Nvidia drivers also come with a control panel that may be better suited from them than the Gnome dialog.

Maybe but even that was no help in setting the monitor up... particularly at a resolution where only about a quarter of the thing is visible.

Quote :

As for mouse buttons all 4 on my mouse seem to work out of the box, but I know this has traditionally has been difficult.

It's always been a nightmare with my copperhead in Ubuntu.
Also why the heck do you have to manually set you mouse up in a text file that also controls the entire GUI and will take it down with it if you make any mistake in the input config (which you will).

Quote from wien :

Not the average Joes I deal with, but whatever. If you do want to install a printer you obviously have to check for Linux compatibility before you buy (HP works great out of the box). Is that really too much to ask?

Yes. That's actually the point. Yes, it's too much to ask. Moreover, the fact that ALL Linux gurus that I know seem to think that it isn't too much to ask is, at its core, the very reason why Linux is fundamentally not for n00bs and the faint-of-tech. You walk into a shop and buy a printer. You should be able to buy the one you want for its features, not its compatibility. It's 2008 FFS.

I honestly believe that Linux is chasing an unattainable market. I don't really understand why Linux wants to compete with Windows for n00b market share. The only thing that makes sense about it is a core hatred for Bill Gates. Whether or not that is justified is beside the point, Linux just isn't geared up to meet that market.

The nearest to n00b-friendly installs of Linux that work, do almost bugger-all. You can do your email, just about, you can do your web browsing - more or less - and as soon as you say you want to do something more to your Linux tech-friend, that suggested that you got the damn thing instead of that crappy winBlowz, they either say "why do you want to do that?" That's the wrong bloody question to ask any PC owner, frankly. That, or they grunt/sigh and explain that they're not free until next Wednesday and that you'll just have to wait. "And don't touch it til I get there!"

Fact is that a n00b can get a lot more use out of, and has time to do a lot more damage to a Windows install, than they can with a Linux distro before it's time to call in a tech. All the justifications for Linux as a n00b OS revolve around limiting their ability to do anything more than they spec'd out before they bought in. That's just not in the spirit of my idea of computing for all, frankly.

Let's face it, even CSU's dad could probably get pretty well as much out of a half-decent portable DVD player or a nice little MP3/4 player as he can out of his Linux media centre.

Quote from Shotglass :

I tend to prefer my drive free of any fragementation after a fresh install but maybe thats just me. Also the deleting everything but poses a bit of a hen egg problem.

Fragmentation isn't really a problem on modern filesystems unless they're filled to the brim. I also keep /home as it's own partition so the rest of the file system will at least be unfragmented. Not sure I understand what you mean with your second point?

Quote from Shotglass :

Isn't that this useless little thing which lets you change the resolution to something available in your xorg conf and nothing else?

Yes, sorry. The one I was thinking of was "displayconfig-gtk" which at least was available in the Ubuntu menu at one point (Not sure if it's still there in a clean install since it's been a while since I did one).

Quote from Shotglass :

Also theres a perfectly good tool to set up network connection with in Lunix and unless something change lately its most noticeable property in Ubuntu is its absence so I still have to use pppoeconf from a shell to get my inet working.

Network Manager doesn't work? I just need normal ethernet to get online so I've never had to deal with that mess (you do seem to end up in all the corners that don't work entirely out of the box ). There is some new GUI for setting up DSL connections with PPP in the most recent Network Manager though, so that may be what you're after?

Quote from Shotglass :

It's always been a nightmare with my copperhead in Ubuntu.
Also why the heck do you have to manually set you mouse up in a text file that also controls the entire GUI and will take it down with it if you make any mistake in the input config (which you will).

Input and screen config is mixed because, as you probably know, X is also a protocol for something akin to Windows' remote desktop. You can connect to another computer's X server over (for instance) TCP/IP and have all input and display from this computer routed through the connection to your local graphics card (hardware accelerated) and input devices.

It should of course not be as volatile and hard to configure as it is, but that is mostly due to legacy code that noone really understands and as such has been let sit and rot for far too long. This will get better over the coming year as new replacement bits start to drop into git master (like X Input 2, XKB 2, Multi Pointer X, RandR 1.3, kernel modesetting etc.)

Quote from SamH :

Yes. That's actually the point. Yes, it's too much to ask. Moreover, the fact that ALL Linux gurus that I know seem to think that it isn't too much to ask is, at its core, the very reason why Linux is fundamentally not for n00bs and the faint-of-tech. You walk into a shop and buy a printer. You should be able to buy the one you want for its features, not its compatibility. It's 2008 FFS.

So if I bought a motherboard with EFI instead of a BIOS I would be within my right to complain about Windows XP not installing? How about a PS2 controller for my PC? That wouldn't be my fault? If you're going to buy hardware you need to make sure it works on your system. Just because it's harder to find hardware not supporting Windows doesn't make the issue any different.

If people don't know this I'm sure they can get the guy at the store to explain it to them when they take their new printer back when it doesn't work. Then they can pick up compatible hardware and nothing but a few hours of their life has gone to waste. Big deal.

Quote from SamH :

I honestly believe that Linux is chasing an unattainable market. I don't really understand why Linux wants to compete with Windows for n00b market share. The only thing that makes sense about it is a core hatred for Bill Gates. Whether or not that is justified is beside the point, Linux just isn't geared up to meet that market.

Who says Linux wants the n00b market share? Microsoft can have them for all I care. Other people would love to corner that market. There is no "primary objective" of the Linux community.

That said, for people who can get by just fine with Linux I will certainly recommend it to them. If nothing else because of the price. (I just saved my previously mentioned neighbour a few hundred pounds by installing OpenOffice instead of her buying MS Office like some other "expert" recommended. She couldn't be happier).

Quote from SamH :

The nearest to n00b-friendly installs of Linux that work, do almost bugger-all. You can do your email, just about, you can do your web browsing - more or less -

How about you list a few things that "can't be done" (like Shotglass did) so we can have an actual discussion here? Going on a vague rant about these Linux users pissing you off so badly is pointless. I'm not them, whoever they are. You're projecting so much pent up resentment onto me because I don't reject Linux outright it's impossible to discuss this rationally with you.

Quote from SamH :

Let's face it, even CSU's dad could probably get pretty well as much out of a half-decent portable DVD player or a nice little MP3/4 player as he can out of his Linux media centre.

Maybe, but if you think a Vista/XP media centre would be any easier for him, you're seriously deluding yourself. That would be the appropriate comparison.

Quote from wien :

Fragmentation isn't really a problem on modern filesystems unless they're filled to the brim.

You should see a drive after years of downloading lots of Linux distributions via torrents or other way that split them in tons of small parts. It doesn't take long to get to the point where the only sensible solution is to buy another drive and copy everything to that and back praying that your os will do a nice sequential write.

Quote :

I also keep /home as it's own partition so the rest of the file system will at least be unfragmented.

After experiencing just how much partitioning can slow drives down to a crawl i usually try to avoid it.

Quote :

Not sure I understand what you mean with your second point?

There is a bit of a fundamental problem with deleting your OS if you don't have a livecd of some sort ie. when installing Windows.

Quote :

Yes, sorry. The one I was thinking of was "displayconfig-gtk" which at least was available in the Ubuntu menu at one point (Not sure if it's still there in a clean install since it's been a while since I did one).

I think I would have found it if it was there. But thanks I'll try to remember the name so i can at least start it from a shell.
Also I believe that's the app you get to see once you've messed up your xorg conf with wrong mouse settings again.

Quote :

you do seem to end up in all the corners that don't work entirely out of the box

That tends to happen with me... have we addressed the trying to run a hackintosh on an nforce 4 with no IDE harddrives malarkey yet?
Well actually I do still have an IDE drive, which worked just fine, but once you power it up you have about 5 seconds until you ears start to bleed.

Quote :

There is some new GUI for setting up DSL connections with PPP in the most recent Network Manager though, so that may be what you're after?

Probably although by the time I try Linux again I'll probably use a router anyway.
It just seems like that Ubuntu while being perfectly easy to install and use if you happen to have just the right PC becomes a complete mess once you connect a CRT a slightly unsusual mouse and don't have some Netgear router from your provider so that you neighbours can surf the interweb as well.

Quote :

Input and screen config is mixed because, as you probably know, X is also a protocol for something akin to Windows' remote desktop. You can connect to another computer's X server over (for instance) TCP/IP and have all input and display from this computer routed through the connection to your local graphics card (hardware accelerated) and input devices.

Yeah it's quite brilliant acutlally. I've used it quite a bit to steal processing power from other peoples dual cores at uni (horribly slow across the internet BTW).
However what I dont understand is why X doesn't use some generc mouse interface with 64 buttons or whatever that an additional mouse driver plugs into to keep any problems caused by specific hardware away from the one file that can wreak complete havok with your GUI.

Quote :

Multi Pointer X

As in one mouse cursor for each mouse? I've always wanted that.

Quote from wien :

So if I bought a motherboard with EFI instead of a BIOS I would be within my right to complain about Windows XP not installing? How about a PS2 controller for my PC? That wouldn't be my fault? If you're going to buy hardware you need to make sure it works on your system. Just because it's harder to find hardware not supporting Windows doesn't make the issue any different.

It's a hell of a lot harder to find PC equipment that won't install on Windows than it is to find PC equipment that WILL install with Linux. Keep a foot in the n00b context, here, because it's absolutely paramount. Out of the box, shopping for hardware WILL almost invariably result in a need for tech support, for Linux n00bs.

Quote from wien :

If people don't know this I'm sure they can get the guy at the store to explain it to them when they take their new printer back when it doesn't work. Then they can pick up compatible hardware and nothing but a few hours of their life has gone to waste. Big deal.

Plus the printer that they DIDN'T want, instead of the one they DID want. Or do you think that's just a small inconvenience?

Quote from wien :

Who says Linux wants the n00b market share? Microsoft can have them for all I care. Other people would love to corner that market. There is no "primary objective" of the Linux community.

I'm actually surprised you're unaware of the proliferation of supposed "Microsoft-thrashing" kernels out there. For the last 10 years, that's the most visible side of Linux from where I'm sitting.

Quote from wien :

That said, for people who can get by just fine with Linux I will certainly recommend it to them. If nothing else because of the price. (I just saved my previously mentioned neighbour a few hundred pounds by installing OpenOffice instead of her buying MS Office like some other "expert" recommended. She couldn't be happier).

"Getting by" isn't really what it's all about, for me. But perhaps I have some strange idea about computers in the home. I like extensibility with ease.. I like the idea of n00bs, completely regardless of their n00biness, being on the leading-edge.. having the latest and greatest within their grasp, as equals with the techies. I guess it all sounds somewhat philosophical, but I didn't just hear M$$$ when Gates voiced his vision of a computer in every home, I heard the implications regarding technological accessibility and I liked it. For me, Linux still broadens the gap between the technologically minded and the non-tech-minded, and I'm always offended by the patronising way some techies look down on the lesser-techies and condescend to them. Personal politics and sociological viewpoints, for me.

Quote from wien :

How about you list a few things that "can't be done" (like Shotglass did) so we can have an actual discussion here? Going on a vague rant about these Linux users pissing you off so badly is pointless. I'm not them, whoever they are. You're projecting so much pent up resentment onto me because I don't reject Linux outright it's impossible to discuss this rationally with you.

I'm often frustrated by the fact that technically-minded Linuxers so often don't realise that popping open a config file, finding some parameters and tapping a few keys is simply outside of technophobes' frame of reference. It's inconceivable to them. They don't understand why it might be necessary, they don't see how it will make a difference, and they absolutely will NOT be able to do it right. When Linux techies meet a Linux "Road Closed", they don't SEE "Road Closed", they see "Diversion". Technophobes don't see "Road Closed", they see "One more move and I'll reach through the screen and grab you by the throat".

Linux can't deliver an extensible platform that is as easy for non-techs to use and extend, like Windows can. That's where we're at right now. I know there's a desire within the Linux community to resolve that, but we're in the here-and-now, and Linux ain't delivered yet.

Quote from wien :

Maybe, but if you think a Vista/XP media centre would be any easier for him, you're seriously deluding yourself. That would be the appropriate comparison.

Actually, the best tool for the job is the ONLY comparison to be made. Frankly, I haven't a clue whether Vista would be easier or not. That's for him to determine, and only him. I'm not going to profess to know what's best for him. I wouldn't pre-suppose such a thing, but I do know that when my kids wanted something to play games on, despite my own expertise in computing and despite my availability to find and fix issues, THE only realistic option was a PS2.

Always keep an eye on the bigger picture.. promoting something that will ultimately bite its user in the ass is something I see a lot - not just Linuxers, I'm talking all techies. Not just computer techies, either. Camera techies, Sat Nav techies.. you name it. The only RIGHT product is the one that suits its user best.

Quote from Shotglass :

As in one mouse cursor for each mouse? I've always wanted that.

Indeed. You can also attach multiple keyboards and have several windows in "focus" at the same time. This allows you to let multiple users click around and type in different locations on the same computer/screen. It also supports multi-fingered touch screens like MS Surface and similar, which is what it's was originally meant for I think. Here's a (long winded) demonstration.

It'll probably take a while before window managers and GUI toolkits gain support once it's in X.org though, but there are some experimental window managers out there already.

I've always wanted to try what happens if you click OK and Cancel at the same time.

For me ultimately the problem with Linux is that the only way to make it work is to see the thing as a hobby and spend 1-2 years on it intensively until you know your way around the hundreds of txt config files that are scattered all over the place with each using a completely different syntax and have tried the thousands of distributions and millions of packets that each solve the same problem in a slightly different manner.
On the other hand then there is Windows which just works more or less and that I have spent enough time with to know how to beat it into submission.

You just have to look at window managers, theres hundreds of them and each can be adjusted ans tweaked with in infinite ways. It would take me years just to try them all and decide whats best and then another few to finetune it.
Best then to ignore the window manager question and pretend it doesnt exist.

Also these 2 really sum up my experiences with *nix
http://www.xkcd.com/456/
http://www.xkcd.com/349/

This thread has certainly moved on. And you're all starting to speak in that language that us mere mortals simply don't understand. It's not a problem, please don't think you need to dumb it down on my behalf. But please let me by the threads token Noob, numbnuts, technophobe, (or any other name you may wanna use, i don't care).

This line just about hit the nail on the head for me

Quote from CSU1 :

Noobs generaly would be too afraid of breaking something to install software so the repository is more than likely beyond their grasp.

The fear factor IS a real issue when you're left with the prospect of not having a clue how to fix what you've broke. Which in one sense is actually a good thing, it tends to stop you from going too deeply into things that you don't really understand (sometimes windows does seem so easy to use it can lull you into a false sense of security, and before you know it you've lost half your data and the screens gone a nice shade of blue).

However, Linux can be overly complicated when performing some of the simplest of tasks. I was reading this thread about 20mins ago, and someone was talking about installing a printer. I then realised i've never even tried to install my printer on Linux. So, had a quick scan on the net, found the drivers, read the install instructions, opened up the Terminal, did what i was told, and the install went without a hitch. Did a 'make test' from the terminal, and got a bucket full of errors, and Open Office doesn't even know the printers there. So, if i am gonna get it working i'll probably have to spend hours and hours chasing round the web looking for a solution. (*N.B. i'm not actually asking for help on this, just using it as an example of how Linux can sometimes flumux the technophobe) Whereas, to install it on Windows, all i need do is find the cd that came with the printer, pop it onto the cd tray, click on a couple of buttons, and Bob's yer uncle.

Having said all that. I do still prefer Linux for my everyday computering. I've had far less problems with it in the 2yrs i've been using it than i ever had with windows. Open Office is great, i find both Evolution and Thunderbird easier to use than Outlook. M Player's better than...the MS one (forget it's name) And
to my ears (at least) Amarok has a much better sound quality than the MS player. I prefer Firefox to Explorer (bit of a no-brainer that one though) and in overall terms it's simply caused me less hassle than Windows. And besides, i've got WinXP installed on a second HD, so if i do have any problems with Linux it's a simple case of switching off and booting into the other drive.

Anyway, i realise the thread has moved onto other things, so by all means carry on with whatever it is you're discussing. Just thought i'd give a point of view from a nooby-numbnuts-technophobe who can put up with the drawbacks of the system, and is happy to keep on using Linux, despite what anyone else says or thinks.

Quote from SamH :

Plus the printer that they DIDN'T want, instead of the one they DID want. Or do you think that's just a small inconvenience?

Yes, if you cannot get by in life without plug&play Lexmark printers, you will need to use Windows (go right ahead, noone will mind). Meanwhile the technophobes we're talking about here don't give a rat's arse as long as it puts ink on paper. Buying HP instead won't matter to them as long as it works (it does).

Quote from SamH :

I'm actually surprised you're unaware of the proliferation of supposed "Microsoft-thrashing" kernels out there. For the last 10 years, that's the most visible side of Linux from where I'm sitting.

What's a "Microsoft-thrashing" kernel? Distros advertised as "Better than Windows"? There are some out there, and for many use-cases they are absolutely correct in saying so, but that is hardly the point. The Linux community is too large and diverse to do such a sweeping statement about it. Some want to kill Windows dead, true, but most just want a great OS conforming to their ideals and requirements, whatever they may be. You just don't hear from the non-zealots as much as the other group.

Quote from SamH :

"Getting by" isn't really what it's all about, for me. But perhaps I have some strange idea about computers in the home. I like extensibility with ease.. I like the idea of n00bs, completely regardless of their n00biness, being on the leading-edge.. having the latest and greatest within their grasp, as equals with the techies. I guess it all sounds somewhat philosophical, but I didn't just hear M$$$ when Gates voiced his vision of a computer in every home, I heard the implications regarding technological accessibility and I liked it. For me, Linux still broadens the gap between the technologically minded and the non-tech-minded, and I'm always offended by the patronising way some techies look down on the lesser-techies and condescend to them. Personal politics and sociological viewpoints, for me.

I'm often frustrated by the fact that technically-minded Linuxers so often don't realise that popping open a config file, finding some parameters and tapping a few keys is simply outside of technophobes' frame of reference. It's inconceivable to them. They don't understand why it might be necessary, they don't see how it will make a difference, and they absolutely will NOT be able to do it right. When Linux techies meet a Linux "Road Closed", they don't SEE "Road Closed", they see "Diversion". Technophobes don't see "Road Closed", they see "One more move and I'll reach through the screen and grab you by the throat".

Linux can't deliver an extensible platform that is as easy for non-techs to use and extend, like Windows can. That's where we're at right now. I know there's a desire within the Linux community to resolve that, but we're in the here-and-now, and Linux ain't delivered yet.

It can deliver that and it does deliver that to a lot of people. Look at the EEE PC and other netbooks for instance. Massively popular, run Linux (or XP if you want).

You go on and on about these vague issues and the necessity of editing config files by hand (totally unnecessary in the vast majority of cases), but you've yet to bring up a specific issue that's possible to refute/acknowledge apart from the inability of using unsupported hardware.

Now hardware support is a real issue, but the people it affects the most are Windows users wanting to switch and keep all their existing hardware. That will be a mixed bag unless you're lucky. If you buy an OEM Linux PC and a ask the guy at the store for a printer compatible with it (maybe even your existing one will work) it will be exactly the same as Windows, minus the license fee. This is what most technophobes will do. They will not wipe their harddrive and install a new OS themselves unless they're at least somewhat technically minded.

Quote from SamH :

The only RIGHT product is the one that suits its user best.

Yes, and in many cases that is Linux whether you like it or not. Once set up (by an OEM or the local geek) it's simple, secure, usable, does everything a large portion of users out there need, and it's friggin cheap. This isn't about spreading the gospel of the prophet Thorvalds, it's about gving people the right tool for the job, just like you said.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

I then realised i've never even tried to install my printer on Linux.

I realise you said you're not looking for help, but did you try just plugging it in? (You probably did, but just in case. ) Because the Windows way of searching the web for drivers is absolutely the last resort on Linux and where most Windows users get lost in a mess of config files and command-line utilities. If the hardware is properly supported, it usually works out of the box (unless you're Shotglass apparently).

For example, as a contrary to your experience, my HP printer can just be plugged in and off it goes. It's actually much easier than Windows since I don't even need drivers off the CD or the web. This of course goes back to the point about making sure you get hardware that's well supported if you run Linux. My laptop was also chosen specifically because all hardware in it is supported out of the box. It's a beautiful thing when a clean, bare-bones install of Ubuntu comes up with hardware 2D and 3D acceleration, network (wireless and wired), Bluetooth, suspend/resume, media keys, DVD-burner, SATA, digital camera etc. without lifting a finger. My mom could do it for christ's sake.

Quote from wien :

Meanwhile the technophobes we're talking about here don't give a rat's arse as long as it puts ink on paper. Buying HP instead won't matter to them as long as it works (it does).

That's the attitude I'm talking about. Newsflash: They may be technophobes but they're not 2nd-class citizens and they're sure as hell not morons. They may be technophobic, but that doesn't equate to a "whatever as long as it puts ink on paper" mentality. I realise you think that way, and so do so many others in the l33tsquad (a point I've tried to make quite a bit) but you're not right to think that way.

I don't need to list examples, you and Shot list plenty of terminal examples for technophobes. The problem is that you just can't perceive how pivotal they are.. but they are pivotal and they are terminal. You don't get it.

Oh.. and Linux is cheap? Lawl.. you can buy a Vista licence for about £55 or you can hire our one local Linux guy, who charges £25/hour plus a £45 base call-out fee. So you replace your mouse, you upgrade to a flat-screen monitor because your CRT is old, you buy a printer and a digital camera with a USB port so you can send photos of the kids to their grandparents. Waddayaknow, you're a normal computer user. Don't start talking about cost of ownership, because a non-technical home user is far more likely to start hurting under Linux than Windows.

Quote from wien :

I realise you said you're not looking for help, but did you try just plugging it in? (You probably did, but just in case. )

Lol, I may be stupid, but i'm not daft Yeah, all plugged in, tried a reboot and everything.

I've got an Epson Stylus (photo) RX500, it's one of these all-in-one jobbies. It's actually not as easy to setup in Windows as i may have suggested. But that's only down to the fact it needs 2 or 3 different drivers installed to work certain parts of it i.e the ordinary printer stuff, the photo bit and the scanner bit (mind you it's been a while since i installed it in windows so i probably got that wrong.) But anyway, it prints it's test page off without problems, but Linux simply can't see it.

Quote from wien :

Because the Windows way of searching the web for drivers is absolutely the last resort on Linux and where most Windows users get lost in a mess of config files and command-line utilities. If the hardware is properly supported, it usually works out of the box (unless you're Shotglass apparently).

TBH i know it was only a n hour or so ago, but i can't for the life of me remember where i found the drivers, i think, (stress the word think) it was the official Epson site, it looked pretty official. But i tried both the .tar and the .rpm files. (actually got further with the .tar) And as i said it seemd to go fine until the 'make test' command which only pulled up a load of errors. I'll have to have a closer look tomorrow.

Quote from wien :

It's a beautiful thing when a clean, bare-bones install of Ubuntu comes up with hardware 2D and 3D acceleration, network (wireless and wired), Bluetooth, suspend/resume, media keys, DVD-burner, SATA, digital camera etc. without lifting a finger. My mom could do it for christ's sake.

Yunno, i've not even checked the Mint site for a good six months or so, so the chances are i've not got the most current edition...yep, just checking as i'm typing, and looks like the new edition Elyssa has been out a while, i'm still using the first build of Daryna Thankfully from my past problems with MS windows i've learnt to back up my personal stuff on a regular basis, so reformating and re-installing is never too much of an issue. So looks like i'll have a new toy to play with come the weekend

But don't worry, i'll get the printer sorted no matter what. Even though it seems we're becoming more of a paperless society everyday. I'm finding that any documents or somesuch that i need are much easier to put on my MDA or flash drive, and the printer just sits in the corner gathering dust atm.

Thanks anyway


[edit] something i should have mentioned earlier. I did give the live disc to my sister. She's even older than me, but she does use a Windows based computer everyday at work. And she hated Linux, couldn't get on with it at all. Had all sorts of problems trying to install all her gadgets and stuff. So i guess at the end of the day it's one of those "Horses for courses" scenarios. For me - right now - it meets my needs fine, but for others it's as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Quote from SamH :

That's the attitude I'm talking about. Newsflash: They may be technophobes but they're not 2nd-class citizens and they're sure as hell not morons. They may be technophobic, but that doesn't equate to a "whatever as long as it puts ink on paper" mentality. I realise you think that way, and so do so many others in the l33tsquad (a point I've tried to make quite a bit) but you're not right to think that way.

I'm sorry but WTF? How does not caring about printer brand make you a 2nd-class citizen? I don't care, and up until you went on a rampage I didn't think anyone else cared so passionately either. Is it really that much of an issue to switch to another brand that works if you're buying anyway? This isn't attitude from my side, it's pure practicality. Buying hardware of any kind includes making sure it can do what you need it to do. Printers and torque-wrenches alike. Why is pointing that out an insult all of a sudden? If you're not comfortable with making these decisions yourself, just ask. The people at the store will probably be happy to help you find a product that works for you and your system. No-one will try to ridicule you as a 2nd grade citizen if you do, for ****'s sake. We all have our areas of expertise.

I also appreciate you pointing out my elitist attitude. I'm sorry I can't live up to the impressive standard you've displayed in this thread.

Quote from SamH :

I don't need to list examples, you and Shot list plenty of terminal examples for technophobes. The problem is that you just can't perceive how pivotal they are.. but they are pivotal and they are terminal. You don't get it.

I get it, but they are issues this theoretical technophobe buying an OEM Linux computer we've been discussing would most likely never come across.

Quote from SamH :

Oh.. and Linux is cheap? Lawl.. you can buy a Vista licence for about £55 or you can hire our one local Linux guy, who charges £25/hour plus a £45 base call-out fee. So you replace your mouse, you upgrade to a flat-screen monitor because your CRT is old, you buy a printer and a digital camera with a USB port so you can send photos of the kids to their grandparents. Waddayaknow, you're a normal computer user. Don't start talking about cost of ownership, because a non-technical home user is far more likely to start hurting under Linux than Windows.

My Vista OEM license cost me ~1000 NOK (about £100). Actual OEMs obviously get a better deal, and it's probably cheaper in the UK, but it's still a lot more than zero. And if you buy your Linux PC from an OEM like I've been saying all god damn night long, you won't have to hire some guy to set it up any more than you have to with Windows. Not once have I said any Windows user can switch to Linux without extra cost or trouble. That's you projecting again. All I've said is that for a large percentage of users (like my mom, and my neighbour, some of my friends), if they're buying a computer anyway or know someone with the skills to set it up for them, Linux is a fine choice, and in more cases than not it will happily work with their existing printers/monitors/digital cameras as well. If not, and buying new compatible hardware is too expensive, then stay with Windows!!! It's no skin off my back. I really don't care as long as I don't have to maintain the box.

All I want is for people to realise that alternatives to Windows are out there, and very often they'll do everything they need at less cost and effort compared to Windows. I know they can. I've seen it. Why does pointing that out warrant insults for my "elitist attitude"?

Quote from Mazz4200 :

I've got an Epson Stylus (photo) RX500

Well, for what it's worth it's listed in my version of CUPS (latest Ubuntu alpha), but I can't tell if that means it's fully supported. Probably is though.

Quote from wien :

Well, for what it's worth it's listed in my version of CUPS (latest Ubuntu alpha), but I can't tell if that means it's fully supported. Probably is though.

Yeah, the site i got the driver from said it was CUPS too. Will install the new version of Mint at the weekend and see if it's learnt to plug and play the printer.

Yet another thing i forgot to mention earlier, a few people were talking about the problems with Nvidia drivers and Linux. But Mint comes packaged with Envy, and i can honestly say i've never had one single problem with the graphics, not one. Then again i've never really pushed it with any games or anything, apart from Danowat's Friday Afternoon Fun

OT:

In folder properties permissions tab there is a group named 'other', what catagory does the group 'other' fall into?

Why is this group given permissions to create and delete inside installation files by default?

What system services reside in 'other'?

How do I apply permissions to individual system services whitelisting them folder access permissions?

...anyone?

Quote from CSU1 :

OT:

In folder properties permissions tab there is a group named 'other', what catagory does the group 'other' fall into?

http://www.linuxsecurity.com/content/view/118181

Quote :

Why is this group given permissions to create and delete inside installation files by default?

Because that's the... default? What installation files are you talking about?

Quote :

What system services reside in 'other'?

How do I apply permissions to individual system services whitelisting them folder access permissions?

As explained in the article linked above, you use chmod. However, you're best off not changing them, otherwise things may break. Why do they need to be changed?

Quote from CSU1 :

OT:

In folder properties permissions tab there is a group named 'other', what catagory does the group 'other' fall into?

Why is this group given permissions to create and delete inside installation files by default?

What system services reside in 'other'?

How do I apply permissions to individual system services whitelisting them folder access permissions?

...anyone?

The example is for a file named "matrix". Similar concept is applicable to folders (correctly known as "directories").

1
This is the user who owns the file. In the example screenshot, the username specified beside Owner has the ability to read and write the file. So if the username in the example says samjh, then samjh can read/write the file.

2
This is the group that is given the type of access specified in Access. In the example screenshot, the group specified beside Group has the ability to read and write the file. If the group name in the example says gamers, then any user who is part of the gamers group can read/write the file.

3
This part says what the users or groups not specified in parts 1 or 2 above, can do to the file/folder. So anyone who is not the user in part 1 or in the group in part 2 can only read the file/folder, but not write to it.


Let's take a look at the /usr/bin directory:



Here, the owner of the folder (directory) is root. The user root can read or write this folder.

The group root (which coincidentally has the same name as the username root), which the user called root is a part of, can read and write this folder.

Anyone who is neither the user root or part of the group named root, can only read the folder but cannot write to it.

-------------------------------------

In Windows, most people use their Windows computer as the administrator. So access permissions is usually a non-issue for most Windows users, and this is one of the reasons why so many Windows installations have security problems. If run as admin, you can do anything!

In Linux, most Linux installations have a "root" (ie. admin) user, and a normal user (eg. CSU1). Each user belongs to a user group. For example, "root" actually belongs to a group also called "root". And normal users normally have their own group too, so "CSU1" will usually belong to its own group called "CSU1".

Let's say you create a new group called "hackers", and let's say that you want any user who belongs to the group "hackers" to have access to /opt/securitylog.txt file currently owned by root. You'd create the new group (in Gnome, go to System -> Administration -> Users and Groups), and then add to that group all the users who should be in it, eg. CSU1, samjh, arco, etc. You can change the owner and group so that CSU1 owns the file and the "hackers" group can read/write to it by using this command as root: chown CSU1:hackers /opt/securitylog.txt.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

However, Linux can be overly complicated when performing some of the simplest of tasks. I was reading this thread about 20mins ago, and someone was talking about installing a printer. I then realised i've never even tried to install my printer on Linux. So, had a quick scan on the net, found the drivers, read the install instructions, opened up the Terminal, did what i was told, and the install went without a hitch. Did a 'make test' from the terminal, and got a bucket full of errors, and Open Office doesn't even know the printers there. So, if i am gonna get it working i'll probably have to spend hours and hours chasing round the web looking for a solution. (*N.B. i'm not actually asking for help on this, just using it as an example of how Linux can sometimes flumux the technophobe) Whereas, to install it on Windows, all i need do is find the cd that came with the printer, pop it onto the cd tray, click on a couple of buttons, and Bob's yer uncle.

This is interesting.

I've been using Linux exclusively for the past two years and never had a problem with my printer (or scanner), with three different distributions: Ubuntu, Fedora, and Debian.

All I ever needed to do on those distros is just switch on my printer (Brother HL1440 laser printer hooked up to the computer via USB cable). A little system tray would pop up saying that a new printer has been installed. I'd click on the configure button (which appears automatically) and click "Make Default". Bingo!

My new scanner installed without any tinkering too. It's a Canon LIDE 25. Just connected it to the computer, switched it on, and it was ready to use without even configuring anything!

Some distros do require a lot of manual tinkering (Slackware, Gentoo, Arch, etc), but most of the very popular ones don't. In fact, it's only the brand-spanking-new stuff (or ones made by Lexmark) that you might have a problem with. Even then, they generally get supported after 6 to 12 months.

I'm getting the feeling that some of the opinions about Linux are quite outdated. Linux improves by leaps and bounds every year.

Quote from samjh :

This is interesting.

I've been using Linux exclusively for the past two years and never had a problem with my printer (or scanner), with three different distributions: Ubuntu, Fedora, and Debian.

All I ever needed to do on those distros is just switch on my printer (Brother HL1440 laser printer hooked up to the computer via USB cable). A little system tray would pop up saying that a new printer has been installed. I'd click on the configure button (which appears automatically) and click "Make Default". Bingo!

My new scanner installed without any tinkering too. It's a Canon LIDE 25. Just connected it to the computer, switched it on, and it was ready to use without even configuring anything!

Some distros do require a lot of manual tinkering (Slackware, Gentoo, Arch, etc), but most of the very popular ones don't. In fact, it's only the brand-spanking-new stuff (or ones made by Lexmark) that you might have a problem with. Even then, they generally get supported after 6 to 12 months.

I'm getting the feeling that some of the opinions about Linux are quite outdated. Linux improves by leaps and bounds every year.

Just and update for Wien and yourself samjh.

I've just finished installing the latest edition of Linux Mint (install went without a hitch, they even give you a nice step by step .pdf guide to help and introduce the system) Updated the Nvidia drivers with Envy and installed the latest version of Google Earth via the Synaptic Package Manager both without any problems at all.

Then, powered on the printer and pluged the usb socket into the PC, and, nothing, didn't ask for any drivers, no pop-ups asking me to configure it, nowt, except, one tiny little icon on the tray bar. Clicking it brought up a box saying i had no documents queued up waiting to be printed. Opened up Open Office, wrote out a quick message, clicked the quick print icon, clicked on Stylus photo RX500 in the drop down box, and sweet as a nut the message was printed without the slightest pause. Magic It knew exactly which printer i'd just plugged in and didn't need any addition downloads let alone any extra drivers installed. I love it when things just work...

Now, if i had only remembered to make a list of my favourite bookmarks....

Cheers, one happy camper here