Quote from ajp71 :

The price is peanuts, a small motion simulator and some modified software (ie. rF) would soon pay off for a team running in national level motorsport for basic driver training and improvement, testing at any circuit will benefit a driver wherever he goes, obviously the same circuit for testing and racing will have a greater improvement but simply getting virtual track time (even in a different but similar type of car) at a fantasy circuit will help improve drivers techniques and give them far more time to try different things. The cost to an F1 team to create a relitively advanced simulator in house is still unlikely to be greater than the tea budget.

The techniques you learn in a simulator will be of very little value in the real world. Its SO different in reality. The forces acting upon changes EVERYTHING.

Sims improve accuracy, mental capacity, and concetration but they don't help specific techniques form my own experience.

I am pretty sure they are not just modded rfactor models and what not.

Also check this out - http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html - mentions how the McLaren simulator was used in the development of the new 09 regs if I am not mistaken.

Quote from Intrepid :

Sims improve accuracy, mental capacity, and concetration but they don't help specific techniques form my own experience.

Isn't your experience in reality all karting, which both hasn't been modeled properly in a sim (yet) and is far more dependent on body position/forces than real racing.

Quote :

I am pretty sure they are not just modded rfactor models and what not.

Why not? I can't imagine there being a lot more detailed simulation and using some kind of somewhat more look up table based system would allow for a lot more accuracy than trying to generically calculate things on the fly. Given that F1 teams can produce all the tables they need to get rF correctly setup then there should be none of the usual botched physics.

Quote :

Also check this out - http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html - mentions how the McLaren simulator was used in the development of the new 09 regs if I am not mistaken.

Don't get confused between real time simulation and the engineering packages that the teams have been using for years. Real time simulation will be completely useless at trying to learn anything about a car.

Quote from ajp71 :

Isn't your experience in reality all karting, which both hasn't been modeled properly in a sim (yet) and is far more dependent on body position/forces than real racing.

Formula Palmer Audi, Formula Ford, and Formula BMW don't count then?

We are talking about specific techniques here, not general ones. A sim can teach you general techniques but nothing in enough detail to make them TRUE enough to be worthy of teaching F1 drivers specific techniques... that is of course if their in-house sims are simply superb, and far more advanced than we realise.

Maybe teaching how to read data and understand how to communicate certain characteristics could be of some value. but is it worth the millions spent, considering they would already have experience in this field?

Quote from Intrepid :

Formula Palmer Audi, Formula Ford, and Formula BMW don't count then?

You've driven all of them?

I personally think no matter what kind of cars, it's under the same universal concept, so you may need adjustment, but driving skill is driving skill, it requires the same talent and mindset.

although I am very sure simulation helps alot in grasping the basic of real drivng, but I didn't have the chance to test it in the sharp end of real racing, so can't comment on that. but really talented racers will get that concept in no time anyway, for the last refinement there's no subsitute of real life experience.

so it's very unlikely simulators will be used to nurture driving skills.

Quote from JJ72 :

so it's very unlikely simulators will be used to nurture driving skills.

You maybe right, but - going slightly off topic here - it can in certain circumstance be a very good indicator of potential. Just look at the processes involved in the V1 Championship, and Norbi hasn't done too badly out of his time with LFS. And if i remember correctly Peter Cox was an alien in GPL when he was given the chance to drive in Touring Cars. Apparently a lot of the NASCAR drivers use Arca and iRacing

Simulators are used extensively in other areas too. If you jump on a plane these days the chances are it'll be the first time the pilot has flown a real passenger jet. And the Army, especially the American Army have been investing millions of dollars in full surround'o'vision war simulators. You can even buy the simulator yourself, if you've got the cash, it's called VBS 2, and it's very similar to ArmA and Operation Flashpoint.

Quote from Intrepid :

Formula Palmer Audi, Formula Ford, and Formula BMW don't count then?

They don't need to worry about body position, and nor have they 'not been modelled successfully' (at least in principle, unlike go karts).

Quote from ajp71 :

Quote from Intrepid :

Also check this out - http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft20831.html - mentions how the McLaren simulator was used in the development of the new 09 regs if I am not mistaken.

Don't get confused between real time simulation and the engineering packages that the teams have been using for years. Real time simulation will be completely useless at trying to learn anything about a car.

"McLaren test driver Pedro de la Rosa was called in to 'drive' the simulator"

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Apparently a lot of the NASCAR drivers use Arca and iRacing

...to learn tracks.

I'm curious if this Williams or McLaren sim does electronics at all accurately and are the knobs and buttons on the steering wheels really working. Automation with these is of course important for a rookie/new driver.

The simplicity of the old Jaguar sim linked here gives at least now an idea that it could have been mainly for that use, to get the drivers accustomed.

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Quote from ajp71 :

You've driven all of them?

yep I just don't make a big noise about it... all rather expensive

Sorry to say it, but I don't believe you. We've had countless discussions where I've ridiculed your lack of experience in single seaters, and you've said some things over the years that you would know just aren't true if you had driven them.

So, now you've made a small noise about it, please furnish us with details. Otherwise I'll have to file it under myth, cross referenced with bin and moron.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Sorry to say it, but I don't believe you. We've had countless discussions where I've ridiculed your lack of experience in single seaters, and you've said some things over the years that you would know just aren't true if you had driven them.

So, now you've made a small noise about it, please furnish us with details. Otherwise I'll have to file it under myth, cross referenced with bin and moron.

Tested a FBMW in Bahrain, F ford at some crappy single seater experience day years ago that is better to forget (didn't say much about it because it was just terrible and boring), and a FPA at the bedford autodrome. anyone thinking about doing the FPA test... take out the insurance!

it really isn't that big a deal

what next? Want me to post receipt of payment with witness testimony lol?

Quote from Intrepid :

Tested a FBMW in Bahrain, F ford at some crappy single seater experience day years ago that is better to forget (didn't say much about it because it was just terrible and boring), and a FPA at the bedford autodrome. anyone thinking about doing the FPA test... take out the insurance!

You've had very limited experience testing single seaters, not going to be enough track time to really get to know a road car let alone a completely new type of car well enough to make useful observations about them. Presumably you just stumbled round like any new driver will do in the first time the drive a car with meaningful downforce, driving far too slowly to get tyres warm and the car working.

The Fomula Ford will almost certainly have been a driving school chassis, which is a less rigid (but lighter and cheaper) than a proper chassis, sometimes people appear with these in competition but always find that they just far too soft and useless. The other two single seaters were both on big flat wide tracks that are about as useful for evaluating the capabilities of a single seater as the M25.

Quote from ajp71 :

You've had very limited experience testing single seaters, not going to be enough track time to really get to know a road car let alone a completely new type of car well enough to make useful observations about them. Presumably you just stumbled round like any new driver will do in the first time the drive a car with meaningful downforce, driving far too slowly to get tyres warm and the car working.

The Fomula Ford will almost certainly have been a driving school chassis, which is a less rigid (but lighter and cheaper) than a proper chassis, sometimes people appear with these in competition but always find that they just far too soft and useless. The other two single seaters were both on big flat wide tracks that are about as useful for evaluating the capabilities of a single seater as the M25.

The F Ford was rubbish. Wanna forget about lol

I think they main benefits you get with sims from my experience is being able to interpret data. Didn't really have long enough in the FPA to get stuck in with the data. The F BMW was a little better.

I use about 2ks worth of data gear on my kart and NetKar uses the same AIM system so being able to marriage the two in learning how the system works has been superb.

I can see how the in-house simulation can improve data reading, and communication between a driver and an engineer because it'a all about how you commicate things that makes the biggest difference

F1 team stimulator:-

spy shot of Honda F1s simulator

http://simtracotr.informe.com/ ... 008-02-05+19-27-27-82.bmp

Quote from SamH :

F1 team stimulator:-

Wonder what she teaches

Quote from SamH :

F1 team stimulator:-

The daily workout for the drivers

Quote from deggis :

...to learn tracks.

I would guess so, and probably just for fun too, a way to let off steam.

arghhh Jordan babes.