I just can't believe that people think that politicians have a better notion of what is right and wrong, and thus can pass these DISGRACEFUL laws or whatever!

I like to think I have a healthy distrust of politicans, and the police and the less powers they have to control us the better the society we live in.

Quote :

I like to think I have a healthy distrust of politicans, and the police

If I was to don a hat and a suite and come round your home and demand money else i'll drag you away it would be called a 'protection racket'. When the government does it they call it a 'tax' enforced by the 'police' in the name of the 'law' for the good of 'society'.

At the end of the day the law of the land is just the whim of the biggest protection racket going, I for one treat it as such.

I have morals and they're mostly in line with Western thinking, they're just not laid out in an HMSO document.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Only dimwits reply "if you're doing nothing wrong then what's the problem". They haven't thought through the massive ramifications of allowing polititians too much power. They also haven't read 1984 (but they probably can't read anyway, although there is always the audio-book version).

If they can't read I doubt they'll be able to comprehend it. Guess there's just no helping some people :P

Quote from Becky Rose :

If I was to don a hat and a suite and come round your home and demand money else i'll drag you away it would be called a 'protection racket'. When the government does it they call it a 'tax' enforced by the 'police' in the name of the 'law' for the good of 'society'.

At the end of the day the law of the land is just the whim of the biggest protection racket going, I for one treat it as such.

I have morals and they're mostly in line with Western thinking, they're just not laid out in an HMSO document.

Don't remember where I heard/read this (probably in an article in high school or something) but it said that the government was just the biggest mob in the country. So many parallels, it really is true. "For the people" my ass.

/Nelson

Ha-Ha!

/Nelson

Quote from Crashgate3 :

So you'd be happy with them opening your post and coming round to search your house unnanounced? You've nothing to hide so why should you be bothered?

You have to draw the line somewhere, and my line is certainly futher back than allowing all my phonecalls to be tapped and emails to be read. What they do or don't contain is utterly beside the point.

It is wrong that they have access to phone calls and emails, they could listen in on you and the other half having one of those chats lol. Also if you bank online they will be able to see all this information which conflicts with the Data Protection Act as only you are allowed to see the information. What would stop them from noting down your bank details going home and buying things with your money. That may not happen but there is always a possibility.

I don't even think the government think these ideas through. They would be able to listen in on your private life and even learn your pets names. I think the government just want to be nossy, I can't see the point in it myself.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

What if you don't do anything wrong but it looks like you're doing something wrong and then you are tricked into saying things that aren't true but make you admit guilt. How about a GPS implant that tracks you everywhere you go? If you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about, right?

If your not doing anything wrong then you can't be tricked into saying your doing something wrong.

Its simple really - if your paranoid that your going to be arrested then stop breaking the law.

By the way everyone - there isn't going to be a big room of people listening to every phone call taking place and reading every email. They will most likely collect all the information (lose it a few times on trains and buses) then if someone tries to blow something up they'll just read their emails and stop anyone else who's trying to blow people up.

Stop worrying, its not like we can change it anyway.

As much as I'm vastly opposed to any official scheme to access our communications, the government has always been able to do so. Even without RIPA, or whatever other acts have been passed to allow it, because previously it used to be illegal for the government to spy and eavesdrop on it's own citizens. Not that the government is too concerned by petty things such as legality, but as a technicality they just got Menwith Hill to do it instead (as it's run by the NSA).

The concerning thing is why they feel the need to legitimise it after all these years. In the past, GCHQ intercepted pretty much everything coming out of Northern Ireland and pumped it through what is called the "echelon" system for recognising keywords and trends. Generally, it seemed to work for combatting terrorism.

Which just makes me think that if they're now putting a public face on all this communications interception, then there's something bigger and nastier around the corner that we don't yet know about.

Quote from STROBE :

Which just makes me think that if they're now putting a public face on all this communications interception, then there's something bigger and nastier around the corner that we don't yet know about.

That in itself is a means of manipulation that the UK and US governments have been doing ever since 9/11. 'There's a huge, secret danger that's so dangerous we can't tell you what it is or explain ourselves in any way'. See if you can download a film called 'The Power Of Nightmares' which is interesting viewing on this subject.

Quote from mcintyrej :

If your not doing anything wrong then you can't be tricked into saying your doing something wrong.

Its simple really - if your paranoid that your going to be arrested then stop breaking the law.

By the way everyone - there isn't going to be a big room of people listening to every phone call taking place and reading every email. They will most likely collect all the information (lose it a few times on trains and buses) then if someone tries to blow something up they'll just read their emails and stop anyone else who's trying to blow people up.

Stop worrying, its not like we can change it anyway.

So you think you know what is 'wrong?. Do you actually have any idea what wrong is?

The government are putting in place systems of control over the people. They make the judgement of what is right, and what is wrong according to THEIR mandate not YOURS!

This has absolultely nothing to do with terrorism. Terrorism is a tool to fuel fear in people so they can put in these INSANE measures.

And once again I ask you

can you post on here-

- every website you've ever visitied
- every girlfreind
- everything you've ever watch on TV includeing DVD
- everything you've ever bought


in fact lets place a camera and microphone on you. Of course if you have nothing to hide then you've got nothing to worry about!

Quote from wsinda :

Imagine yourself sitting in the pub. A bloke then says to you: "I got a mate who has top access to that surveillance system. He's gonna plant evidence that you were collecting child porn. The cops pay you a visit, and your boss and your gf won't be happy. Now, if you just give me 5,000 quid before next Thursday..."

well "To Catch a predator" is pretty much that

I don't think the government will read your emails. As much as some people like to think, they don't actually matter and the government certainly doesn't care about them. They don't care that you look at porn or download music the point of the system (seems to be) to tag emails with key words in them like: BOMB 3:00 SAN FRANCISCO GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE (some poor shmuck in virginia probably just had to read that)

As for security cameras I like them. A camera at a market across the street from my brother's apartment saw his car get stolen. It was recovered 3 hours later because the cop recognized the criminal. These things are for your protection and safety, they certainly helped my brother.

@intrepid: The government doesn't care about any of those things you just listed. Now if your girlfriend was on the terrorist watch list or you bought 1,000lbs of fertilizer for your one bedroom flat and the dvd "Bomb Making for Terrorists" then you may have a problem. I'd want the government watching you for my sake.

So I guess all the privacy lovers on here are steadfastly standing shoulder to shoulder with Max Moseley in his new privacy case?

Quote from mcintyrej :

If your not doing anything wrong then you can't be tricked into saying your doing something wrong.

If you can't be tricked then in any case you can be tortured. You should know, you're from the country that brought us the Guildford Four.

Quote from wsinda :

If you can't be tricked then in any case you can be tortured. You should know, you're from the country that brought us the Guildford Four.

We also gave you Chicken Tikka Madras, so I think we're exhonorated.

Quote from flymike91 :

the point of the system (seems to be) to tag emails with key words in them like: BOMB 3:00 SAN FRANCISCO GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE

That is certain to be false alarm (unless your aim is to catch jokers). Any crook worth his salt will use encryption, or use nonspecific language, like: MEETING AGREED 15:00 SAN FRANCISCO.

Quote :

@intrepid: The government doesn't care about any of those things you just listed.

They will. Terrorism is the reason to create the system. But once it works and the data is available, it will come in handy for other purposes: catching tax evaders, illegal migrants, file sharers, etc. The government will need to do that to justify the expense, cause the system won't catch any of the big criminals.

Quote from Jakg :

Errrr how would the decrypt them?

They don't have to. It is already an offence in the UK that incurs jail time NOT to provide encryption keys if they are requested.

Quote from Woz :

They don't have to. It is already an offence in the UK that incurs jail time NOT to provide encryption keys if they are requested.

As I said earlier...
"And lets face it, stealthily reading your emails to identify you as the next pilot of a badly parked 747 isn't going to be to stealthy when an MI6 agent knocks on your door asking for your PGP key."

What's going to happen when the government ask for the encryption key? The criminals will go to ground, destroy evidence, and appear 3 months later in Cuba.

Quote from Woz :

They don't have to. It is already an offence in the UK that incurs jail time NOT to provide encryption keys if they are requested.

If the encryption hides a serious crime, the suspect will prefer to go to jail for not providing the keys. This law doesn't solve or prevent the crime.

The criminals can also use steganograhy, or any other way to hide the message in innocuous communication.

I find it interesting that the government is trying to change the freedom of information act, because they don't like details of their private lives being made public. But at the same time they want to bring in laws that force us to share our personal information.

Personally I don't care, I can't understand why people are scared of CCTVs, having biggest DNA bank in world and other stuff? Well unless you have killed someone or planning of doing that. But otherwise it's just better.

It's not better if the government use this database to datamine for the purposes of manipulation. Let's say a general election is looming, lets say the government want to get an idea what people are talking about in private about the coming election.

A heuristical analysis of private communications could then be used by the government to analyse criticisms and fears and be used to produce saleable sound bytes for the coming election.

Think more cynically and you'll see why this invasion of privacy is a HUGE problem, and let's be honest, the only way to deal with a government is with as much cynicism as you can muster.

Quote from Electric Eye :

Personally I don't care, I can't understand why people are scared of CCTVs, having biggest DNA bank in world and other stuff? Well unless you have killed someone or planning of doing that. But otherwise it's just better.

None of those things stop crime, CCTV witnesses crime taking place, CCTV didn't stop the Russians assassinating someone in London did it? DNA will only help identify people, you still need to catch them, and in the mean time theres important information that you don't want to get into the wrong hands. Surely with reports recently that racism is still a big problem in the police, you should see what potential problems can be caused by ID cards and DNA databases.

I would suggest doing some research on ID cards, and large databases of personal details, and find out what countries and leaders have used them in the past. I think you will find a nice list, including the names Stalin and Hitler.

A big issue with the DNA database is possible future use of the data. This government may not have any ulterior motives, but what if a government game to power in the future that did?

This is a deliberately extreme example, but say the BNP won the election a few years from now, and decided to use the DNA database to arrest, deport or otherwise compromise the rights of anyone who's DNA wasn't deemed 'english' enough?

You would also have details of your medical history on the database, so they would be able to see who has aids and HIV. Then you can combine the DNA database with the NIR and criminal records, so you could find out who is related to certain criminals, and if they happened to be at the scene of a crime they are suddenly a prime suspect.

When you think of the possibilities that are only a small step away once these databases and systems are in place, then it becomes scary. So we need to take action to prevent it happening, the first part is ignoring the news, we are not all about to die, terrorism is not a big problem, and identification doesn't solve any crimes.

Quote from mcintyrej :

Its simple really - if your paranoid that your going to be arrested then stop breaking the law.

Sorry to break this to you, but its your dad who leaves that money under the pillow when a tooth falls out.