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Mosley wants action to 'save' F1
(67 posts, started )
Mosley wants action to 'save' F1
Linky to watch video of interview.
Quote :Formula One has been told it needs to implement drastic cost-cutting measures by 2010 if it is to remain "credible".

FIA president Max Mosley told BBC Sport that the global credit crisis had only exacerbated problems for F1 and several teams were now in danger of quitting.

"It has become apparent, long before the current difficulties, that Formula One was unsustainable," said Mosley.

"It really is a very serious situation. If we can't get this done for 2010, we will be in serious difficulty."

I suspect the car in the background will add fuel the the Ferrari biasism argument though XD
#2 - 5haz
F1 cannot be saved now, and Bernie or Mosely are not the people to save it.

I think they should go back to using Hewland gearboxes, that'll cheapen things as bit.

The whole world will die of a lack of common sense eventually.
How hard is it to just simply put a budget cap on teams instead of doing things year in and year out that hurt the sport itself and do nothing to alleviate spending? (When even the 'simplest' person could tell you why these ideas won't work.) These aristocrats don't have their heads screwed on right.
#4 - samjh
Quote from rcpilot :How hard is it to just simply put a budget cap on teams...

How will they police the budget cap?

Budget caps are useless if they can't be enforced. With privateer teams like Williams and RBR, it's feasible. But manufacturer teams like Ferrari, Honda, etc., can get around it by using their parent companies to do some of the development work.
#5 - ajp71
Quote from rcpilot :How hard is it to just simply put a budget cap on teams instead of doing things year in and year out that hurt the sport itself and do nothing to alleviate spending? (When even the 'simplest' person could tell you why these ideas won't work.) These aristocrats don't have their heads screwed on right.

How do you propose to check the finances of highly secretive organisations who won't think twice about breaking every rule in the book?
#6 - richo
The amount of waste from every team developing the same systems is retarded, there should be more common parts and electronics shared even if its at pit lane level .

I love the diversity of F1 , it makes F1 what it is but surely the sub systems the public eye dont see can be shared .
he's got a point about f1 needing to reduce it's costs, ferrari are loosing their title sponsor and look like they're attempting to persuade santanta (spelling? keep getting it mixed up with the sports channel and the guitarist ) to leave mclarren. if the teams don't reduce cost deliberatly, it may well be they will be forced to reduce costs purely by a lack of big money sponsors.


oh and for those who like cospiracies, did you notice what make of F1 car that he has a model of behind him ?
Quote :FIA president Max Mosley ... remain "credible".

These two phrases are in the same sentence?
It's Santander that are sponsoring McLaren (a bank, not a sports channel).

I agree richo - there needs to be standardized parts in some areas. Firstly, aerodynamics is a sensible one for that. Other series have worked with spec wings but not spec cars (OK, none were single seaters). The cars look quite similar anyway. If you were to get one of each car, paint them white and work out which is which most of us probably couldn't get more than 2-4 right.

Someone suggested a standard survival cell. That could be a sensible idea as it would reduce the amount of crash testing needed.

I think this could see the 2.4 V8s kept for a few more years. When the economic situation recovers they could then have more open development on parts like engines. Given that manufacturers are wanting to promote the fuel economy of their engines I have an interesting idea/silly idea.

Limit the cars to 750 horses at the wheels (plus 80 from KERS systems) and give constructor's championship points for fuel economy - like the GP2 fastest lap points only cars that finish in the points would be able to get the fuel bonus. Aside from those rules ... if it's safe, runs on petrol and the engine lasts for four races it goes. Turbos (with a kevlar bag around it like a drag racing blower), rotaries, V12s, Atkinson cycle, whatever. Only real rule is no jet engines.

The power limit can be enforced by a standard ECU chip with all the software on it having to be released under the GNU licence. There will need to be a rolling road with the weighbridge which isn't really an issue.

Makes would be able to race their current pet technology (Mazda rotaries, Toyota hybrids, turbos, whatever). F1 won't scream "buy a BMW, Hondas are slower". It'll scream "buy a BMW, Hondas will be a small dot in your rear view mirror AND we can get better fuel economy".
Quote from duke_toaster :I think this could see the 2.4 V8s kept for a few more years.

At least until 2013, incase teams do not want to shorten current engine freeze (again). As great as your idea could be it's quite far from what FIA has been thinking... 1.3-2.2 litre turbos with 4 or 6 cylinders... not options for teams, but options for the engine concept. Some documents from FIA mention these and according to them new concept was actually supposed to be introduced already in 2011. But since the documents are from 2006-2007, way before the decision on engine freeze so these docs are obsolete what comes to dates.
Quote from richo :The amount of waste from every team developing the same systems is retarded, there should be more common parts and electronics shared even if its at pit lane level .

F1 is not a spec series, it is meant to be the pinnacle of motorsport. There is a fixed amount of money that car manufacturers and sponsors have to spend on F1 the more you reduce the basic costs of designing and building cars the more will be spent on the precious little room left for design and development. A completely open series would only increase budgets if more money was poured in because the importance of F1 as a marketing tool had increased. If you leave the wing mirrors as the only free component on the car teams will manage to spend a £500 million budget designing them...
Quote from samjh :How will they police the budget cap?

Budget caps are useless if they can't be enforced. With privateer teams like Williams and RBR, it's feasible. But manufacturer teams like Ferrari, Honda, etc., can get around it by using their parent companies to do some of the development work.

I'm not saying it will be easy and I'm not claiming to understand all the variables behind it. But... you have two realistic options as to reducing costs. Either turn F1 into a completely spec series, or implement a budget cap. Any other 'in between' and the teams will just shift their massive budgets around to make the best out of whatever advantage they can improve on, and nothing will change. Very basic logic, but pretty infallible, and I'm pretty sure the fans of F1 do not want to see a spec series or else we wouldn't be watching F1.
#15 - 5haz
One action Mosely could take to save F1 would be to stand down.

Or Have Bernie asassinated.
Quote from richo :The amount of waste from every team developing the same systems is retarded, there should be more common parts and electronics shared even if its at pit lane level .

I love the diversity of F1 , it makes F1 what it is but surely the sub systems the public eye dont see can be shared .

I will play the role of the dissenter and disagree here. This is Formula One here! The best cars in the world with the best drivers.

The very essence is that Every part of the car is the highest level of cutting-edge technology. That's what's enabled F1 to be the technological force behind a multitude of road car innovations throughout the history of the sport.

It's the spaying and neutering of the technological advances [normal aspiration only, banning continuously variable transmissions, banning "instantaneous" gear changes (however Honda achieved that), outlawing underbody aerodynamic devices] that has made the sport less-and-less relevant to the over-the-road motor car.

The cost isn't the problem here, it is the lack of advances forwards. The engineers should be allowed to engineer, and create the next inovations that will make all of our lives better.

I welcome KERS and love to see future regulations leaning towards encouraging efficiency as well.
duke i know its a bank, just couldn't remember how to spell it ( which makes me wonder about the value of their advertising ) as you pointed out despite what we like to think the cars are very similar, if you want proof just look at the skins available for the bf1, even though the car is 2 years old, you can still tell what team some one's picked because the colours are more important than the shape. spec wings would be a great start to reducing costs and would have the advatage of allowing them to be designed to work with each other to allow cars to follow in each others slip stream.


the problem with spec parts is that teams compete in f1 for the " constuctors" championship, not a team championship and as such they will probably baulk at any attempts to lessen their design input into the cars.

however it has to be said that for most of the seventies, apart from ligier and ferrari, the teams all effectivly used sped engines and gearboxes, i.e. the cosworth aand hewland units, so i would imagine a standardised transmission would be an option, you could allow the teams to design their own case for it but use standard internals. also at the same time, re introduce a manual "H" shift as there it's far cheaper to manufacture, the engien manufactures may complain that the drivers wouldn't be able to modulate the throttle accuratly enough to avoid damaging the engine but if you introduced the transmission change with new engine regs they could ensure the engines are suitable and i'm sure that if they knew they had to get their curent engine to work with it, they would soon find a way.

one of the problems currently is that the engine manufacturers have gone from being suppliers of major components that teams could choose between to being the most important group with controlling interests in teams. when they first began investing heavily it was pointed out by a few respected jounalists that it might not be ideal for f1 to find itself in a position where it was "scared" to introduce changes that were unpopular with the manufacturers currently involved incase they decided to either leave or start their own rival series, something which they have since threatened till they won concessions. the balancing act comes in recognising this but also the risk that eventually f1 may go the way of the dtm, ie. become so expensive that only a couple of manufacturers remain as others find that investing £ x 00 million a year to be beaten by rivals is not good for car sales, at what point does the average car buyer start to noticed and be affected by the fact that the car in front is one of 6 in front of a toyota ? that honda engine expertese is slower than toyota's and renault's ? and that mercedes powered cars are obviously better driving machines than BMWs ultimate driving machines? BMW has an understandable history of pulling out when they are consistently not winning and feel that they can achieve better results elsewhere, so do mercedes and toyota, renault and honda have both walked away from f1 in the past whilst being at the top.

BMW recently announce a 44 % fall in pretax profits for april to june 2008, in 2007 pretax profits fell by 6% despite an increase in sales of 9%, to a figure of 3.1 billion euros. if the 2008 quater figure is reflected over a year that will become 1.7 billion euros or approx 2.3 billion dollars. a f1 budget of 366 million dollars reflects about a 15 % increase in profits if it is cut out.toyota's profits are about 4 times as large but have fallen 28% in the same quarter. honda onthe other hand after failing to meet profit targets in recent times finds its profits are up, an achievement it feels is due to its small economic car range and also a favourable exchange rate with the us market which comprises half its non motor cycle sales. renault's profits have also risen but having anounced 5000 redundencies and possibly more to follow may face increased preasure in france about expenditure. mercedes have had their profits fall but still expect to make 11 billion dollars and ferrari's have risen to 59 million euro's in the first quarter this year. if these trends continue then you may find that companies such as bmw have to reconsider their position, that honda may still be affected due to their reliance on the us market and that renault may come under increasing domestic preasure. ferrari need to be in f1, it's their original reason for existing and it would be almost unthinkable for them to pull out, mercedes and toyota have such large profits that they probably can ignore any savings a reduction in commitment would bring them. torro rosso are already looking for a buyer for the end of the 2009 season due to rule changes and they will rquie a major investment to coomence making their own cars again.

obviously team budgets are to a large extent paid for by sponsors but it should be remembered that in the economic down turn of the early 1990s fi team numbers fell from 18 in 1991 to 10 in 1996.


finally if you want to encourage fuel consumption either ban refueling during the race or reduce the refueling rig flow rate so what is now an 8 second stop became a 16 second stop and then after so many years reduce the flow again to make it a 24 second stop.
I think, the crisis hits the smallest teams. Not because they're ineffective or having bad debts, but just because small private sponsors will first and foremost cut F1 expenditures, since they're the least effective. Big corporations can afford a loss of "just" few hundred dollars to maintain their public image. It's an ineffective choice, but doing ineffective things this is what big corporations are all about.

I watched F1 since 1992 till 2003, then, triggered by LFS lost any interest. Looking back I think it was never interesting. The only thing that made it make sense was associating with one or another guy in the peloton.
Quote :Only way that is ever going to go through, is a scenario where most of the manufacturers have left. Fortunately...

I dont know, what they're talking about is a standard design and still allowing the manufacturers to make the - which means they'll have some control over the engineering aspect of the engine. The 'independent contractor' idea may be an opening for the return of people like Haart Engineering and Ilmor too.

Whether it is workable depends entirely on the details, all of which are beyond me - in my world the engine goes under the bonnet and is where 'all the magic' happens.
FOTA won't let it happen, end of.
#22 - 5haz
Quote from deggis :Bernie's masterplan (is to just repeat what Max says):

Only way that is ever going to go through, is a scenario where most of the manufacturers have left. Fortunately...

If that happens, then F1 will be officially dead.
Quote from 5haz :If that happens, then F1 will be officially fair.

Fixed for you.

I hope the engine plan goes through - will be a great move for the sport in my opinion.
in order to save more money i suggest the following:

- only one chassis constructor
- only one engine constructor
- only 1 track to race on (multiple configs possible, paul ricard)

These how can we save money suggetions get more stupid everytime someone comes up with them again...

I have personally no problem with standart parts for brakes or suspension or similar. But why would any manufactor want to stay in F1 when they are not allowed to bring in their knowledge anyway (engine design)? There has to stay some point of freedom otherwise we can also watch stable trophy(?word?).
If it happens I'll have to consider a different race series to watch... But which one? Probably F3, as it'll be the last of the non-spec series even though virtually all the cars are the same make (they can do what they like, within reason, to them).

I'm not a fan of spec series in the slightest. They're so dull. I can accept a few things, especially components that don't get much attention - brake technology isn't exactly striving forward, so spec brakes would be fine. Even a spec undertray would be okay, as long as the aero engineers can have a go at the important bits on top. But spec wings, engines, monocoques I don't want. I don't even like the ECU, but accept it as it get's rid of the stupid driver aids to an extent.

Mosley wants action to 'save' F1
(67 posts, started )
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