There seems to be a resignation of defeat by many pundits. If they continue to criticise the sport they are forced to question their own involvement in it. At the moment there are very little redeeming features in F1.
Its as if people are just giving up. You either say nothing or quit, and as people need to keep their jobs they are choosing the former.
the Bourdais penalty was THE worst penalty I have seen dished out this year, well, ever btw ...
I'd suggest that the FIA need to make sure the rules as black and white as possible and only give out penalties when they can PROVE a driver deserves a penalty. I'd like to see even a tiny bit of evidence that Bourdais was to blame for the contact with Massa.
Of course I wouldn't be surprised if they don't change anything and continue to act like idiots, because that's what they do best
Yh I seen that. Well I never knwe running someone a little wide was rule braking consider it happens at every race start ever! If anything it proves that it was infact who breached the rules and not Hamilton. So a driver can no longer out brake himself without fear of a DT!
Hamilton drove a dreadful first lap but that was not a penalty. Not in a million years. if you believe it then every start ever in F1 needs to be RE-LOOKED at!
That confirms, for me, that it was a typical T1. The reasons were obvious - cold tyres, cool track.. all the ingredients that on any other GP start are expected to ADD to the excitement of the standing start that the FIA CHOOSE to have.
That penalty was a poor precedent to set, but it wasn't the most offensive penalty that got handed out at that race.
Edit: maybe not typical but after the s/f line there's 600m to T1, so the braking on cold tyres/brakes is much harder than usual. To me it was kind of expected to see tyres locking and cars going wide.
Agree 100%. Five years ago Hamiltons T1 bit wouldn't have even been thought about being investigated and even Massas would have been borderline. Let them race! They know the risks of blocking, trying to pass etc. What happened to the good old comment of "ah well thats racing". Heres a clip, watch the comings together and see if you can remember them being penalized then compare to now days. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... O4ynI&feature=related
Everythings become too strict, the levels changed. Dont know whats gonna happen next year when it will be easier to overtake....... Wether you hate a driver or not or team or whatever, support the racing FFS!
The hole the FIA have dug themselves is that by punishing Hamilton every time he even thinks about turning the steering wheel has meant every incident is looked at in fine detail
BUT, the FIA do allow racing to happen as long as it doesn't affect a certain team it appears.
How many times has Coulthard crashed this year without penalty. Anyone remember Alonso CUTTING T1 and gaining an advantage at Singapore... I could go on...
Anyway I must stop this posting, it only fuels interest in F1, and I don't want to be doing that any more!
playing devil advocate here, so no alternative motive, other than being an argumentative bitter Scotsman (no change from the norm then)
It could be argued, with a certain degree of success that what Hamilton did was basically dive bomb into T1......if I dive bombed into T1 in a CTRA race and a report goes in against me, I assume I'm free as it's a typical racing start, even if I was to push someone off the track.
(p.s. before it's pointed out to me, I'm not trying to compare F1 to a game, I'm just trying to see if there is a logical train of thought behind the decision, I don't believe the conspiracy theories suggested on here, I just think it's incompetence from a select few.)
to be honest i think the FIA might have just gone that bitt to far this time(who/what will be done about this im not sure)...
you see, normaly we get LH fighting for 1st or somthing and he gets done, while some are going snuts cus LH was on FIRE!!!! the others are saying "yeaaaaa lewis sucks!", and lets face it we all have our opinions, but this race was very different...
even the most hardend hamilton fans know he was a complete jerk in that race from start to finish, EVERYONE with half a brain-cell can see he screwed up big time, so this time the normal fighting between the 2 camps is "gone" its ALL DOWN TO THE PENALTYs, and 99% agree its complete crap...
the massa / Bourdais incident is even more mind numbing to think about..
the thing RACEWISE that worrys me is the fact that the FIA seem sooo tied up in this .... i duno what you want to call it that they seem to be missing some of the REALLY dangerous instances in recent races..
if they was looking at LH for how he shot out and came close to taking out kovi i would say ok fine, cus when i saw that i nearly fell off my perch (looking at it from heli cam done look so bad actualy)..
how massa's overtaking monouver while crossing the pit's white line was never looked at i will never know, and as someone already pointed out how massa got a DT for hitting LH but the rest get a S&G for pitting under a sc????
personly i dont think the FIA are even "doing" a job right now, im suprised DC hasent said somthing as he's on the way out anyway ....
the other thing which i really found strange on the day, now im saying this as i saw it, but it may just be the ITV coverage...
lewis screws t1 royaly, then the tangle with massa, up it pops on the screen "massa and lewis under investigation" ok grate 2 mins later it also pops up "lewis and kimi under investigation"...
now im probably reading to mutch into this but it was like massa hitts lewis and the FIA say we carnt let that go but we carnt hand this to lewis either... a few mins pass and they decide to pick him up on T1 to settle the score a bit more, anyone else notice this or am i smoking to mutch again ....
now forget the ACTUAL incident between Bourdais and massa, and just look at how they handled the "INVESTIGATION" WHY after the race???? they said them selves after spa, they can sort it after the race if its within 5 laps or somthing from the end, this WASNT, so why not sort it then and there???
you guys are right watch it or dont simple, but tbh are carnt stop watching just for the anticipation of what stroke the FIA will pull next... its breathtaking
It's an argument, sure, but since you draw the comparison, we may as well play it out. Hamilton gained full overlap while in the braking zone, and before the turn-in point. The fact that he locked his wheels is secondary. That was an error, but not a breach of rules. Under CTRA rules, we wouldn't penalise because the position was his.. even if he screwed up, it was his position to ultimately lose - which in fact he did. There was no contact at all, with anyone, so even though he finished up effectively costing others time and himself as well, the whole episode amounts to nothing more than a warning at most. Having said all of that, CTRA SS3 is the only place where the rules beat to anything like the F1 drum.. and there's so far no precedence for anything like this kind of incident being reported in SS3 as yet.
I read it that way too.. the order of things was what made it look odd for me.
Also, when Bourdais and Massa came under investigation, the common sense part of me said that Massa would probably get away without being penalised for it. It was only the FIA cynic in me that said at the time
but I was half joking. I was half joking because half of me couldn't bring myself to believe that the FIA could be THAT blatant about finding another point for Massa. My mistake, it turns out. The FIA actually WILL do anything, regardless of how it is seen. At this point, I'm genuinely in awe of the FIA.
About the Massa Hamilton incident. If you look he actually pulled out of the move, or got blocked completely by Massa (cant see) but he definitely stopped trying, and Massa went and outbraked himself, Hamilton actually ended up going through there with a normal line and didn't close a door or anything, he was hit soon after he apex. Yet Massa says "he pushed me very wide". ????????????
I Still think its somewhere round borderline to no penalty though.
LOL im with ya there, even knowing what the FIA have been like of late i still cannot belive this has actualy happened, they are destroying one of the largest sports in the world, its no longer a sport anymore its like watching a cortroom drama, ya know sleezy laywers and all..
ya know i would be happy if the FIA would just come out and say THESE are the rules you can see driver XXXX broken the rules in XXXX case..
i find it slightly strage after a spa, drivers opinions were changing at every interview , at the start they was all saying, "i duno what ya gota do to give a possition back" then it was "there are some grey area's of the rules" Then "lewis gained a advantage"
some drivers was saying lewis was at fault right away, now that im ok with, thats there opinion, but its the ones that at the start that were scratching there heads and then all of a sudden they are like "what was lewis thinking he knows he carnt do that" well as far as im concerned rules should be there for ALL to see, and if driver's are scratching there nutboxes then somthing is either fishy or wrong..
they dont just give a driver a multi million £/$ contract when they dont know the "SUPPOSED" rules...
going back to spa for sec (i know im sorry) you read that thread now and u see a trend start..
at the start it was all about him giving back the possition to kimi, NO talk or discusion on "advantages", then the FIA press release comes out and its all talk of "DID lewis gain a advantage?" after that the fia comes out with this dusty old rule that you carnt attack in the next corner, well lewis did attack in the next corner so he's guilty right?? got him bang to rights.. IMHO NO, why?? becasue the rules either wasnt there or was veeeeeeery unclear, and this F1 FFS you know the pinnacle of motorsport..
its this on the spot making of rules thats getting my back up, why was lewis done for the t1?? what NEW rule is gona show its ugly head next?..
you have say football, a player is questionably offside, the big word here "OFFSIDE" because its a rule, ok we argue was he level when the ball was passed, bla bla bla but there is a OFFSIDE RULE!!!
now its a totaly different situation if your country looses the WC because a player was questionably offside and has a goal dis-alowed and the reff is saying "NOOO THATS WHAT I SAW FECK OFF.. yea we b1tch and moan and throw stuff at the kids for a day or 2
but what about if the ref dis-alowed the same goal and said " no no no your have to stand on your head and do 3 push-ups and shake hands with the pope before you can touch the ball in that situation, basicly m8 you gained an advantage there so im gona take a goal of ya.. its madness...
hate lewis or want his kids, the same thing stands these RuLeS that are being passed are complete rubbish, there are people on here who have followed F1 for years, im a new comer to some of you guys who have being watching it from day dot, and none of these have heard anything like this before in all those years,
when massa's engine blew up i was shouting NOOOOOOOOOOO at the tv, im no LH fan boy, but i do like to see a good race/championship, if next race they decide to nail massa for stupid dumb stuff ill be on here jumping up and down like i am every week.
ok if you dont like lewis cudo's to you and same with massa or who ever but just cus ya dont like driver XXXX dont mean what ever sh1t the FIA sprays ya have to say, "yea see i told ya he's a noob"..
what did DC say after spa? he was one of the guys scratching his head and he has a lot to do with the fia and new rules for safty and so on and he didnt get it untill the FIA waved there magic wand...
tbh LH dont even come into the last race he fecked it up pure and simple, its the Bourdais penalty thats got my back up, its just madness
The damning thing is, the "Formula One Group" are self-regulated in many respects. They conform to FIA guidelines, but outside of that, they answer to nobody but themselves.
With the amount of money being thrown around by the (Privately owned) teams, the (Privately owned) circuits, and the fans that support this so-called "sport", somebody has to be held accountable for these recent debacles. I fear that the reason this hasn't happened, is because F1 is so full of money and self-regulated power, that challenging them is utterly futile.
There's the old "if everyone is so unhappy, why not break away and form a new group?" question. This has been a rumour that re-surfaces at least once every couple of years. Again though, the reason this doesn't happen, is money.
Example: Just look at how some of the drivers have made u-turns with their statements, days after "controversial" incidents or decisions. Perhaps "be a good boy / team and we'll make sure you have a team / pit garage to race in next year". It really does make you wonder...
Also, taking into account how much drivers get paid, team sponsorship, contractual agreements with circuits and all of the other mountains of paperwork that is undoubtedly involved, breaking away for the Formula One Group is sadly not as easy at it sounds. And this is all allowed to happen, because the FIA make their fattest wedge from Formula One - why on earth would they start bullying their biggest earner?
It's a sad state of affairs that's been allowed to grow over tens of years - I truly think that this recent spate of controversy and bewilderment is down to the fact that the F1 Group have been getting away with this for so long, and the cracks are starting to show.
I think that no matter what rule changes come into play next season, and no matter how teams are "regulated" in the future, the damage this last two years has been devastating.
I pray for the day that some of these teams grow a pair of bollocks, stand together and say: "THIS IS WRONG".
Blimey. Some of you make out as if something is the matter. I'm still enjoying F1, always have done and always will do. It'll take a lot more than a couple (one?) of slightly dodgy decisions by the stewards to put me off such a huge, interesting, technical sport.
I wish I was, Tristan, but I'm not any more. What is keeping me watching to the end of this season is devoid of any enthusiasm. It's just morbid curiosity now, and a desire for Hamilton to win. No longer because of who/what he represents to F1, but instead because of what he represents to the FIA.
I no longer think there is a conspiracy theory associated with FIA and Ferrari. It's entirely proven as far as I'm concerned. It used to be that the theorists were the "believers". Now it's the people who believe that there is no FIA bias that are the true "believers".. because they persist in believing in the integrity of Mosley and the FIA, despite conclusive evidence to the contrary.
Let's have a bit of history, to get us some perspective:
The whole core issue stems back to the time Frank Williams and Ron Dennis determined that if the FIA didn't get its house in order with regard to the disproportionate way that F1 revenue was shared amongst the teams, they would break away and form an alternative series. That plan had the support of all the top teams, and the process was well underway. Including Ferrari. Then Ferrari torpedoed the whole process by signing the Concorde agreement. It's widely held that Ferrari always intended to sign the Concorde agreement, but purposefully feigned support for the breakaway series.
The relationship between Mosley and Ferrari had been close before then, but it became much closer as a result of that move. It's widely felt that Ferrari's deal with Mosley and the guzumping of McLaren, Williams and others was when Jean Todt's future role as FIA president was sealed.
Dennis, some of you may remember, was very vocal, honest and quite brutal about the relationship between Mosley/FIA and Ferrari (this is when Frank Williams faded into the background, and began to downscale his involvement in F1 politics and activity), and since those days, Mosley has seized every opportunity to shaft Dennis.
For anyone who's thinking "Nice little Max Mosley? Vindictive?? He wouldn't do such a thing, surely!".. err.. guess again.
So.. you have FIA motive. We can see what the FIA weapons used are this season, as we did last season. The intended victim is McLaren (and Bourdais has been caught by a ricochet DT, sadly - Renault dodged the bullet last season), and if anyone thinks that there is no crime in progress.. duhh.
agree 100% samh, and it looks like im only still watching for the same reasons too...
anyone who carnt see that there is some ass kissing going on here must be deaf and blind, that last race is proof that this is all not driver biased (from our side anyway), other drivers are getting caught up in the FIA sniper range..
i would hate to be in f1 at this time, you would be scared to change gear incase a RULE popped up, there going to to be nailing drivers for punchers next..
its like all this auto pit light the reds are using, with all the accidents that thing has caused any other team would have had it banned by now and rightly so, someone is gona get hurt, bad!...
its alwasy one rule for the rest and 1 rule for another and you carnt argue that farrari always comes out with the long straw, it wouldnt supprise me in the least, if spygate last year was all put up, you just carnt trust anything that happens in f1 now....
F1 suffers from the same thing that caused the stock market to crash
1. way to mutch money flying about
2.way to many greedy bastages
and tristancliffe if you can honestly say with your hand on your heart that what you have seen this season and even last season was good solid racing, then i really dont know what to say...
im all for safety im even for going green, but not letting the drivers RACE just doesnt cut it with me, i really hope lewis gives massa a real hard time in the next race, just to see what the fia will do in the finnal race to give massa the win...
i will say one thing this is going to be interesting....
Gizz, please: Capitalisation, punctuation, spelling? I appreciate that some people just can't spell but when you produce words like "tristian" I begin to suspect that you're not even trying.
Your posts are really hard to read. A bit more effort would be appreciated.
Lol, I wish I didn't agree with you but unfortunately I do. Though the FIA might not have to do anything, I was reading in the paper today that Alonso has said he will help massa to win the WDC and happily take points of LH. Alonso also made a comment about whether LH was right or wrong he got punished which was good (not exact quote as I havn't got the paper on me anymore but its about right)
I will watch the last 2 races of the season. My belief in the fairness in f1 though crushed, I still have some hope that the last two races will be fair and good races. Though I doubt it.
....
