Hey guys! Before i made this thread i was searching for my answer but i didnt find any,also looked here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2626

So my suggestion would be to make an extra option in f11 ingame menu for Brake Pressure,that is because i know it would be a perfect addon for like endurance races,where more than 1 person drives an actual setup. As every1 has different driving style,braking style is different too in most of the times. So people like me need less brake pressure,than the (ufo's) with very high pressure,dont have to relearn braking (its not very funny to learn a completly different style)

I would like to hear peoples opinion on this

Thanks

Quote from e2mustang :

Hey guys! Before i made this thread i was searching for my answer but i didnt find any,also looked here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2626

So my suggestion would be to make an extra option in f11 ingame menu for Brake Pressure,that is because i know it would be a perfect addon for like endurance races,where more than 1 person drives an actual setup. As every1 has different driving style,braking style is different too in most of the times. So people like me need less brake pressure,than the (ufo's) with very high pressure,dont have to relearn braking (its not very funny to learn a completly different style)

I would like to hear peoples opinion on this

Thanks

I think it's the teams responsibility to use a set that all the racers can drive well. The sim shouldn't help add to the problem by giving solutions to bad planning. If you don't get a universal setup, there should be a penalty. The penalty here is that it is uncomfortable for one or more racers.

Wire a POT in parallel with your brake POT and walla you have live brake pressure adjustment

Can real endurance cars have their brake pressure adjusted in the time it takes to swap drivers?

Quote from Crashgate3 :

Can real endurance cars have their brake pressure adjusted in the time it takes to swap drivers?

If it was an advantage to do so irl I should imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make an adjustment for max brake pressure. The reality though is irl brakes operate proprotionaly to the pressure you apply rather than by pedal travel as the average LFSer brake operates. I.e. in real life it is much much easier to modulate brake pressure than it is in LFS so there is simply no need for a brake pressure adjustment in a real race car.

Quote from Glenn67 :

If it was an advantage to do so irl I should imagine it wouldn't be too hard to make an adjustment for max brake pressure. The reality though is irl brakes operate proprotionaly to the pressure you apply rather than by pedal travel as the average LFSer brake operates. I.e. in real life it is much much easier to modulate brake pressure than it is in LFS so there is simply no need for a brake pressure adjustment in a real race car.

Maybe I am bad at physics, however, isn't the pressure applied in the brake fluid hoses dependant on the travel of the pedal ?

I mean, the farther the pedal is, the more compressed the fluid will be in the hoses, so more pressure will be applied on the pads ?

Yes and no. Brake fluid almost doesn't compress at all. With your foot you are basically directly pressing against the brake discs (once pad and disc touch).

However, to make it possible for you to brake at all, there's both mechanical and hydraulic force multiplication/leverage going on, not to forget the vacuum driven power assist which removes a lot of the braking effort, too. All this results in a pretty high power multiplication, but the (for us preferable) tradeoff is that you have to push the pedal much further to move the brake pad a tiny bit. If we for example have a power multiplication of 1:36, pushing the pedal with 10kg will push at the pads with 360kg, however to move the brake pad 1mm we'd have to move the brake pedal 3.6cm. It might seem like the pedal position has anything to do with how strong you brake, but this is only indirectly true and only when applying relatively weak braking forces. At some point there's simply no place in the brake system that could move away a little and the brake strength becomes clearly purely pressure dependant.

Yep. If you want stronger brakes in a real car, just go to the gym and get on the calf raise machine.

Quote from Zen321 :

Maybe I am bad at physics, however, isn't the pressure applied in the brake fluid hoses dependant on the travel of the pedal ?

I mean, the farther the pedal is, the more compressed the fluid will be in the hoses, so more pressure will be applied on the pads ?

This is true until the pad touches the disc (drum, whatever) and the brakes will be set up so this distance is minimal. Once it's in contact you're just pushing it onto the disc harder, not actually moving it.

At some point when you press the brake pedal, you reach the bite point where the brake pad is actually touching the rotor. The farther you press the pedal down, you are just compressing the brake pad, right? The less compressible the brake pad is, the less pedal travel you get past the bite point.

Thanks for your precision !

This makes a lot of sense ^^
I mean, I remember now when driving a motorcycle with the handbrake (front disc), when after biting the disc and braking hard, if I released a little the pressure (move my hand by less than 1cm) it lost a lot of braking power compared to the same travel the other way around (when moving this centimeter when actually applying the brake). 1cm when relasing = a loss of braking power than is greater of than the increase of power when travelling 1cm when pressing the bar.
You were right ^^

However, we won't be able to have pressure sensitive brake style unless some company builds a force feedback brake pedal vith variable resistance, unfortunately.

Quote from Zen321 :

However, we won't be able to have pressure sensitive brake style unless some company builds a force feedback brake pedal vith variable resistance, unfortunately.

Or you make your own with a load cell

so what about the suggestion?

I'm not interested in this brake-issue particularly, but it's one these "we can't do it in reality, but we need it in LFS to make up for lack of perception."

Just like the trackmap, F9 and stuff... seems that there are a lot of different opinions.

Quote from Bandit77 :

it's one these "we can't do it in reality, but we need it in LFS to make up for lack of perception."

Sort of, but there's no way LFS can make up for it correctly. Even with a load cell, you would not be able to simulate the "bite" point. The only way to properly simulate the brake pedal would be to have force feedback. A linear actuator could provide resistance in the same way that the motors on the DFP do. Then a loadcell could detect the forces between the user's foot and the linear actuator. But, you would still need a potentiometer or a linear encoder to detect how far the pedal is pressed down. You need to know how far the pedal is pressed down to be able to tell how much force to push back on the user's foot with.

EDIT: Of course, to fit a linear encoder, linear actuator, and loadcell in a compact package would be incredibly difficult, considering the amount of space that an actual braking system takes up in an actual car:


And a linear encoder, linear actuator, and loadcell would take up as much room as a master cylinder probably would.

^ I don't see the problem? Have one weak outer spring that holds the pedal up, but doesn't touch the load cell and one strong inner spring or rubber block (from the nixim pedal mod, for example) that touches the load cell after a few cm of dead travel. Or anything similarly simple, for that matter. You'd only need force feedback if you want to simulate ABS or brake failure.

Maybe i wrote this wrong but i didnt mean what you guys are talkin about here,i meant the option which is at the brakes settings in garage,that option i would like to see in the f11 menu ingame

Never heard of a thread wandering off topic?

It went from "F11 brake strength adjustment, discuss" to "Is that even realistic/technically possible?" to "Would real race drivers even need that?" to "No, because brake strength IRL is pressure dependant anyway" to further discussion about that.

Personally I don't want the brakes strength to be adjustable in the F11 menu. Mainly because it would add another unrealistic element (while we should actually try to get rid of these) and it would make people write scripts that adjust the brake strength for each corner, which I don't like.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Have one weak outer spring that holds the pedal up, but doesn't touch the load cell and one strong inner spring or rubber block

But different cars have different brakes that feel different. The brake pedal on the BF1 should not feel the same as the brake pedal on the UF1 in terms of force feedback.

Well, duh. That's right, but, aren't there much more glaring non-represented differences between the UF1 and BF1 other than how the brake pedal feels? You're still sitting in front of a monitor looking at a moving 2D picture pretending to be a race driver; I reckon simulating the different brake pedal feelings is kinda over the top.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Well, duh. That's right, but, aren't there much more glaring non-represented differences between the UF1 and BF1 other than how the brake pedal feels? You're still sitting in front of a monitor looking at a moving 2D picture pretending to be a race driver; I reckon simulating the different brake pedal feelings is kinda over the top.

Well right now, yes. Five or ten years from now maybe display technologies will improve. It would be pointless to have force feedback pedals without actually having a motion simulator too.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Never heard of a thread wandering off topic?

It went from "F11 brake strength adjustment, discuss" to "Is that even realistic/technically possible?" to "Would real race drivers even need that?" to "No, because brake strength IRL is pressure dependant anyway" to further discussion about that.

Personally I don't want the brakes strength to be adjustable in the F11 menu. Mainly because it would add another unrealistic element (while we should actually try to get rid of these) and it would make people write scripts that adjust the brake strength for each corner, which I don't like.

Oh yes i seen threads go off topic very often
Also i know know what the discussion is about,but i think we just want to make this GAME too realistic imo

Oh I definitely agree that there must be some compromises to ensure a certain playability, but specifically the F11 options were recently reduced quite a lot to only give full blown race cars the benefits of live adjustments. Adding a (unrealistic) live brake strength adjustment just to make the life of driver-swapping teams easier would be kind of hypocritical in that aspect, wouldn't it?

Quote from e2mustang :

Oh yes i seen threads go off topic very often
Also i know know what the discussion is about,but i think we just want to make this GAME too realistic imo

That's a good thing. It is nice to be able to drive cars in a game that are as close to reality as possible, without the obvious risks of crashing and dying. So that you can feel like you are driving a real vehicle at high speeds around a race track without the risks and expenses of driving a real car on a track.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

So that you can feel like you are driving a real vehicle at high speeds around a race track without the risks and expenses of driving a real car on a track.

and exactly THIS is one big point that makes a lot of the drivers behave unrealistically.

I mean - T1 anyone? Or cutting the track no matter how much the bodywork and even suspension suffer, as long as it all makes one race?

... ah, LFS would be a better place if you had to take care of your equipment.


wooooohoooooooo... now THAT was off topic.