The online racing simulator


I think it's pretty funny that even we are complaining about the sound... as LFS doesn't sound great but at least it doesn't break my headphones when I turn the master volume to full.

And Kunos replied to my question about the "1 year license" thing... http://forum.rscnet.org/showpo ... =2978166&postcount=10

Just had to ask that because the it was so obscurely said on the website.

Quote from danowat :I have never understood why people feel the need too "dis" other sims

I gotta admit I'm a bit disappointed, just had to release my hate to that pic or something. The physics are probably good but everything else in it is poo... at least currently. Unfortunately.

And the sim community is probably more disjointed to different games that any other game genre.
Quote from deggis :Btw, do you have two buttons called "Shift" and one button called "CAPS LOCK" in your keyboard? Do you know that you can also press those buttons?

Trust me, he knows his stuff. I don't want to see them caps here.
Quote from Si_Si :Sent an email to the support lot 2 days ago. No reply!

There is one person replying to all the support e-mails in person (lets face it there are going to be thousands of them) did you get an automated reply saying your e-mail had been received and would be replied to later, if not then your e-mail may never have got there.
Quote from tristancliffe :

I don't know why, but i thought you might have liked this sim?
Yes, I agree the sound is bad, yes I agree the MP is bad, but the physics and FF are better than LFS IMO.
With NK you get a nice rough realistic FF, with LFS it feels too "smooth", too constant, go round a corner and the FF stays constant all the way round, no change.
Don't get me wrong, LFS is still my sim of choice for most things, but Nk does have some redemming features, anyone who though/thinks that NK would replace or better LFS doesnt understand what NK is about, they set out to do different things.

Dan,
I think the problem with NK Pro is that it has the professional touch in the physics side but everything else is so amateurish in it. Everything else that makes it a playable game. I just can't keep thumps up very high for better future developement.

Now we got "1.0" version which isn't even beta tested. I don't really believe it really was tested at all, there are just so many weird bugs that those must have been noticed and fixed if it was really tested well (e.g. the FF setting which doesn't work). I really believed this would be same kind of very polished product like LFS, as both are so called one-man-projects and not made by some commercial unmotivated dev team. This just doesn't give high hopes for future.
^^ danowat is right nK seems to have been too hardcore for a lot who can't cope with pressing a button to start the car or be bothered to get into the sim, their loss

LFS doesn't aim to get the main sim market, alot still think ISI is decent (which they're entitled to believe) and haven't even tried LFS due to its marketing it tends to target people new to sim racing and does sometimes show this in the quality of online games.
Quote from deggis :now we got "1.0" version which isn't even beta tested*.

What else were they suppose to call it when namie was 0.99? Anyway I think 1.0 Hiccup rather suits it

Why do people read so far into version numbers I really can't see the reaction being much different if this had been released as an Alpha as far as I'm concerned LFS isnt Alpha software and that can't be used to defend it all the time just simply that they both have the chance to improve in future patches.
Quote from KiDCoDEa :owner of the pitch convinced me. i shut up on this matter.

And just go and get it posted on RSC? what I call shutting up.
Quote from ajp71 :What else were they suppose to call it when namie was 0.99? Anyway I think 1.0 Hiccup rather suits it

Why do people read so far into version numbers I really can't see the reaction being much different if this had been released as an Alpha as far as I'm concerned LFS isnt Alpha software and that can't be used to defend it all the time just simply that they both have the chance to improve in future patches.

Version titles are supposed to be what the version really is. NK PRO uses the version number to screw people, LFS does it like it's supposed to do. On the other hand "alpha" after LFS's name can be used to defend some negative things in LFS like you said. But better to underrate than overrate the version number as nK Pro clearly isn't what version "1.0" should be.

And namie was namie, this is "nK PRO". Different name.
LFS has more bees than nkpro. But that is just personal preference. As the sound works now ok in nk it's much better than in LFS. But now the damn thing has horrible steering lag. I have amd64 3500 gef 7800gt and 1 gig of memory and I have to run at 640x480 with lowest detail to get rid of the steering lag.

I just can't think why anyone would like LFS sounds better than nk?

This is what the deaf monkey thinks of LFS sounds after playing the nk pro:

I hear no evil anymore. No more!

But this is just my opinion after couple hours of playing.
Quote from Hyperactive :I just can't think why anyone would like LFS sounds better than nk?

To me they sound cleaner and in a sense nicer although that is not what you hear in reality the same goes for the FF it is more realistic but some people will not like the roughness you get in real life.
Quote from ajp71 :To me they sound cleaner and in a sense nicer although that is not what you hear in reality the same goes for the FF it is more realistic but some people will not like the roughness you get in real life.

In Richard Burns Rally the FF has "rough feeling" but when I'm playing it I don't feel like my wheel's FF motor is breaking up.

But I'm gonna play around with the FF & profiler settings... altough that could be much easier if the goddamn FF setting would work.

And same thing with sound, it just has way too much noize and sounds very annoying. I can't use very high volume with headphones.
^^ Unfortunatley nK takes its FF from the steering column torque and at the moment no damping is offered, possibly a third party addon on could come out at some point taking steering torque and smoothing it same goes for the UI I can't see why a third party one couldn't be made.
i found the sounds in nkpro ok, yes there are issues but lfs sounds arent that much better. One thing in lfs that irritates me is when i am near to max speed going down the straight my headphones start crackling when the wind noise comes in ( and they are descent headphones!!! Beyerdynamic). I havent touched the sounds settings in lfs and i am using onboard nforce2 audio.....

btw on the FF in nkpro. yes it is more lively during corners which is quite fun, lfs is smooth but hopefully that will get fixed in patches to come? right?

mad

edit.. plus does anyone have weird sounds when watching replays? when i watch replays sounds just loops over and over as the car drives past the cameras, ????
Quote from Madman_CZ :
edit.. plus does anyone have weird sounds when watching replays? when i watch replays sounds just loops over and over as the car drives past the cameras, ????

In replays on onboard cams I loose my sound for a short time going over the S/F line.
Quote from ajp71 :^^ Unfortunatley nK takes its FF from the steering column torque and at the moment no damping is offered, possibly a third party addon on could come out at some point taking steering torque and smoothing it same goes for the UI I can't see why a third party one couldn't be made.

And is the FF system same in LFS but with damping?
Reposted this lower down, as about a million replies since my edit

Right, so far I've resisted the urge to post here and slam it like all you lot have I've played it fairly extensively online and offline in all the cars on all the tracks.

First Thoughts
What a horrid way of designing a modern sim, with a separate VB interface. Nothing is easy, and there are exceptionally few options to tailor the sim to your tastes or computer. But I managed to licence myself, and select car skins etc. The multiplayer lobby is a joke really, even with the much improved patch. You can't filter anything, not even full/private/empty etc, and you can't tell if a server is passworded til you've spent a minute loading the sim program. Neither can you join a server unless it's in a very specific join period which is just annoying a stupid. I can understand not allowing people to just drive on track, but to not allow them to join (but allow them to try) is just stuuuuupid

AIM
I was hoping this bit would be cool. and in a way it is. But it's almost impossible to use, and at the resolution I have to use (aging PC) and FOV I like (80) I can barely read anything. But the shift lights are very nice, especially how they flash. None of this perfect shift point light like in LFS. Trouble is you can't configure the shift points to the correct revs for a given ratio as you can't see the torque curve and wheel sizes are unknown I think (though I bet you can work them out from telemetry). And it's stupid to completely disable it in the demo (not including the workaround) - people need to see the revs and gear they're in, at the very least...

Graphics
Some seriously nice touches in there in my opinion. The tracks are nicely lit, and the textures are generally top notch. But at no point have I been convinced that the cars are on the track - they ALWAYS look like the cars have been photoshopped into the scene, perhaps because the cars are subjected to different lighting, or the car shadows not working with the track appearence. Nice touches I've noticed are the smoke, the reflective pit wall windows, and the pit garage, which looks a bit 'lived in'. The car models themselves seem excellent, especially the cockpits.

Sound
Woahhh, BEES (see attachment). Whilst the sound engine is VERY good in some respects - the low speed hunting at full throttle, the exhaust crackling on the overrun and the starter sounds - the actual sound generated is just rubbish. Much worse than LFS S1's. But it has potential in that area.

Driving
Driving out of the pits, it all feels nice. The cars are clearly attached to the ground, rather than floating above it a la rFactor. You can floor it, control the wheelspin, and generally chuck it around without it having 'too much' grip faked, a la 99% of other sims (not inc. LFS). It was nice to just get out and drive. I didn't have problems starting the car, although the hidden button on the FTarget did confuse me for a minute or two. Gear changing is silly. Whilst it's undoubtedly the 'correct' way of changing gear for the cars, it doesn't work in a sim. In a real formula car, even with nancy throttle cuts levers and stuff, you get feedback from EVREYTHING to help you shift. I'd bet REAL money that a real car is easier to shift than the F1600/1800. But once I found that two quick upshift requests resulted in a shift it was okay. So I accelerated towards the first corner and braked. Nothing special here, the car slowed I went round the corner and accelerated out. Hmmmm, easy. A few laps later, after my confidence had increased (and a few crashes later too), I was braking later, turning more aggresively (depsite my Early Turn In driving style), and getting on the throttle earlier. Can jump on the throttle most of the time, and if it's too much you can just about feel that the back end is going to come round and you can correct it, just about. But occasionally, braking in exactly the same way as before, the back will swing out 90 degrees (almost without exception it's 90 degrees), which isn't right I don't think. Maybe my manual blipping isn't perfect in sims yet, but it didn't feel like it was related to that... Plenty (perhaps too much) understeer in corners, especially with the non-downforce cars.
I was also impressed by the tyre temp modelling. Do a burnout and the understeer is worse by about the right amount (cold fronts). Weave to warm the fronts and oversteer is very much a problem. But they don't lose enough grip after a 3 minute burnout in my opinion.
Flatspotting. I quite like the shaky FFB once I've locked up, but it's just too much. I'm really concerned about the life of my wheel with that vibration, even from a relatively little lock up. And I have no idea if it's a rear or a front I've locked.
Mirrors - why are they always dirty round the edges? And why can't I see my rear tyres? Surely if the tyre condition is done visually I need to see them, just like you can in a real formula car (F1 and my F3 anyway).

Damage
I loved the idea of wheel tethers. I really did. But OMG, they do such funny things. Flapping around COMPLETELY unrealistically. And the 'floor on track' noise is sooooo loud compared to all the other sounds - poor speakers. Wings can be knocked off (though no apparent damage, just no wing), tie rods and track rods can be bent (is it visually, not checked). But the cars a touch too fragile. I've seen real Fford racing, and they DO bang wheels without instant suspension damage. Shame no sim has the wheel-wheel contact flipping modelled though...
I thought I'd also love the idea of repairs taking time, but it's really irritating. Sure, it might be more acceptable in a league race, but I found myself disconnecting and rejoining to repair the car. And if you alter your wing by one stop, you have to wait 10 minutes. Now I'm not an F1 mechanic, but I can adjust my F3's rear wing in about a minute, if that. Nice idea, poorly implemented.
The tyre wear/condition being remembered between sessions is also something I thought was going to be brilliant. But it isn't. I've no idea what condition my tyres are in (is 18km good?), and if you forget you can find yourself in a race with very very bad tyres. And what's the other tyre type for in the F2000? I think it would be great to have a number of tyres for a weekend (practice/qually/race), and to be able to inspect them, and no information about them, but nK doesn't give you any of this. So now I just mount new tyres every time I leave the pits. Can you ever run out? I haven't yet!
But isn't it nice to run over the grass and see it on your (front) tyres, and then see it wear off. Shame it doesn't [seem to] affect grip at all, but it's a lovely feature, and I can't wait for it to be in LFS (which it surely will be one day).

Immersion
Sometimes it's brilliant. Other times it's pants. The tracks are poor in terms of design, they are all very similar and featureless. The only corner I really enjoy is the last one at Newbury, where the exit is VERY close to the wall. But it's hard to learn the tracks without some form of keypoints, which is something our Eric is very good at.

Clutch and Engine
Deserves a whole section to itself. I love stalling. It feels so good to not use quite enough revs, or to not dip the clutch/keep the revs up after a spin and stall. It's something LFS really does need now I've tried it. Even with auto-clutch (no clutch pedal on these ECCI babies) it stalls if you don't use enough revs or do the right thing. And I like having to manually blip/lift the throttle. Whilst I would use it in LFS, the speed/consistency advantage with having it is too great an incentive - get rid of the options in LFS and I'll be happier.
Too high a gear at too low a speed - the car shudders and shakes, just like in real life. Another brilliant addition that adds to the (otherwise weak) immersion.

Force Feedback
Um, yeah. Not sure what's going on. For starters you have NO CONTROL over the strenth in the UI (have to edit ini files), and even then I can't make the linear/exponent thingy do anything - is that FFB related or is it wheel turn compensation (to all intents)?
Sometimes the FFB is brilliant. I'm loving driving over serrated kerbs and feeling it. But I can't feel understeer (maybe I'm setting it up wrong as some people say they can). I can just about feel oversteer. I can't tell if I've locked up or if I'm going to fast. And then sometimes it just turns off, so I get even less than before. But at least it's not canned (I think), and is MILES better than rF/GTR/GTL/GPL/GT4. But it does shake you around a bit, and feel more alive - LFS is a bit dead in this regard.

Misc
The track signs (100m, 50m) are better than LFS's in so much as hitting them DOESN'T create a massive crash. But they've gone too far so now you don't fear hitting them at all. And the animation as they break looks very fake too.
How do you get into the pits - I end up going forwards and backwards outside the pit garage to try and find the sweetstop that allows you to do anything. Then I find you can't do anything, so I just pit to the garage.
What the hell does Disconnect do in the Esc menu. Doesn't disconnect you online at all that I can see
It crashes. A lot. Or, if it doesn't crash it justs in to a huff and does rude things out of spite
Can't send setups online? WTF. Even rFactor added this, and rFactors worse! I can understand skins not being auto-downloaded (we are, of course, spoilt in LFS), but not setups? Now I have to give my email address out, leave the sim, copy it into the right place, load it, and try to reconnect. Hardly streamlined.
Look left/right in cockpit. Sudden movements? How annoying is that - you lose all sense of direction and speed. Needs a smooth movement like, well, every other sim I can think of.
The lack of information is disturbing. I like not having overlays, but a simulation NEEDS some, even if it's only an interface thing like F12 in LFS rather than a 'we'll show you this so you beleive with model it' overlay like F9.
No free camera?
Doom mode - I'm sure Stefano said it would be ASDW controls like a modern FPS. But no, we get arrows (just up and down), a crouch key, and the ability to walk through walls. Nice idea, but as it is it's useless. I can't tell the difference between 1 and 1.5 degree of camber on my competitors cars, so why bother. If we could see other drivers, and actually do something useful (or see something useful like times, or damage notes, or SOMETHING) then it might be a nice feature. Until then I'll stick with Teamspeak (though I would like a voIP client built in).

So, in summary I think nK has awesome potential. In a few months it'll be amazing compared to what it is now. But unfortunately, for nK, it's not as good as LFS at the moment, and by the time the nK patches come along LFS with have moved further ahead. I really enjoyed the thought of nKP. I honestly thought it was going to kick LFS in the nuts and run off giggling. But it hasn't, not by a long shot. I've since played some LFS (LX4 @ SO4r) with Anton and it's so much better. You really feel like you are controlling a several hundred kg car. You can feel the car squirming, you can tell if you've snatched a wheel (even without sounds sometimes). As a driving simulator LFS is a Space Shuttle to nK's Wright Flyer. But nK is by no means awful. It's EASILY the 2nd best simulator on the market today, and I look forward to future patches, additions and devkits. I won't be uninstalling it, but it won't be replacing LFS as my first love (apologies to the missus if she reads this). And it's definitely shown LFS a few tricks, which no doubt LFS will better very soon. Perhaps Stefano needs a week of LFS to show him what to do...

I've almost certainly missed something(s) off here, and it's by no means my final opinion. I need another week or two to really get my head around these physics, as it DOES take a while to acclimatise. It won't be as good as LFS in two weeks (patches not withstanding, for either sim), but it does have a very real and fair place next to LFS. And competition, even if it's only weak at this stage, is good for both teams.
Very nice writeup there tristan. I agree pretty much in everything. LFS is still the king of the simulators (no doubt about it), but NKP isn't as half as bad as some people think/make it look like.
I agree as well (as I've written before), yet I'm left wondering about the FFB. Being such an important factor to getting feedback and controlling the car I'm surprised it was not perfected. Some effects are too much and some too little, driving with complete confidence while pushing the car was hard. Dunno, just odd that is.

TBH with just the improvement on the FFB alone I'd be happy to call NKP a Very Good Sim/Game (take your pick) but now it's the sim that's got the potential to be a Very Good Sim/Game.
Wow 2000 words lol what a post.

Are you getting decent FPS it may explain your bad FF. I personally love the FF whenever I have decent (over 30) FPS it is in no way canned, it uses the torque on the steering column which is why it is so rough at times (ie. when it would be IRL).
Quote from NotAnIllusion :I'm surprised it was not perfected.

There is nothing to perfect in the FF using this system it is what is felt IRL but is too harsh for wheels either a new system will have to be designed or maybe a third party app could do FF, neither would give such accurate FF though.
I wonder if Kunos is going to sponsor new wheels for us.

It maybe more realistic but it definately needs some kind of smoothing.
Good point - something I forgot to add...

The multiplayer has serious effects on your frame rate. Okay, my system seems to struggle (2800 P4, 1GB DDR400 ram, 9600Pro 256), and I get about 9fps on grids (even on pole), but when racing it's about 25 to 35. Yet if anyone lags on the server, even on the other side of the track, I get warps, lag, jumps etc.

This makes the sound do loops (i.e. repeats the last few seconds), and the FFB to do weird things. But sometimes the FFB just turns off for an entire session, then will restart for no apparent reason.

And yes, my sound is on 50ms latency (tried 25 but the bees turned into hornets).
My PC is almost the same spec as yours (128 VRAM and 512 RAM) and I found the multiplayer was one low FPS mess so I'm not bothering with it until patches start coming out and the initial confusion dies down.

LFS Community gives nKPro a go?
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