Jenson will be on the BBC as a pundit, the young drivers coming through are not only better than him, but they are willing to pay for their drives. His F1 career is as good as over if nobody buys the team.
Jenson will be on the BBC as a pundit, the young drivers coming through are not only better than him, but they are willing to pay for their drives. His F1 career is as good as over if nobody buys the team.
Bad, but not unexpected.
Actually I'm surprised that it's just Honda to pull the plug. Bad timing for the drivers with only 1 seat open (Torro Rosso, I think Buemi is set). Unless someone pulls a rabbit out of his hat and allows teams to buy (old) chassis I don't see any bright thing in the future for F1.
Actually I'm surprised that it's just Honda to pull the plug. Bad timing for the drivers with only 1 seat open (Torro Rosso, I think Buemi is set). Unless someone pulls a rabbit out of his hat and allows teams to buy (old) chassis I don't see any bright thing in the future for F1.
He's a good driver, give him a McLaren and he'd bring it home first a few times I reckon. Sure he's not as good as Lewis, but he doesn't deserve to leave the sport without being given another chance as when Honda had a decent car, he was putting in decent results.
He is like the Martin Brundle of the modern era, showed promise but never had the luck. T'is a shame to see, if Prodrive did go ahead with their team project then maybe Jenson would have had a chance, but thats about as likely as Bernie coming up with something sensible.
Maybe if they shoot Nick Fry they could salave the operation? Surely it's not too late to rid the company of his mistakes?
Breaking News: Button to start driving on LFS!
Oh please dont dump a turkey on Prodrive too, any new team needs all the luck it can get, not a washed up has been who was never any good being all arrogant around the workshop sapping a huge salary. Put Jenson out to pasture. He wasnt good enough for F1 from day 1, and nothing much i've seen of him since has changed my mind.
As for Honda, they will be back. Honda have been around F1 on and off since before most of us where born. They're just throwing the towel on the BAR franchise because, frankly, they havnt delivered very much. Given the option of restructuring for sucess, being lumpered with drivers and senior staff they cant get rid of since realising the mistake in signing them, and the economic downturn, it makes sense to just throw the whole team away and come back in 5-10 years with another one.
As for Honda, they will be back. Honda have been around F1 on and off since before most of us where born. They're just throwing the towel on the BAR franchise because, frankly, they havnt delivered very much. Given the option of restructuring for sucess, being lumpered with drivers and senior staff they cant get rid of since realising the mistake in signing them, and the economic downturn, it makes sense to just throw the whole team away and come back in 5-10 years with another one.
And the rumor-mill is open for business...
Either get David Richards to take it over as a going concern and/or send Jenson out to McLaren to replace Kovalainen and give Hamilton a run for his money.
bernie and max's idea today maybe stupid but a few years ago when the manufacturers were threatening a break away bernie pointed out that if F1 relied too much on manufacturers it would only take a change in emphasis in the car industry to see team numbers decimated and in the classical litteral sense we have ( 1 in 10 killed off for not performing adequately). as i said before other manufacturers are being squeezed and unless their F1 efforts have no net cost to them, they are bound to have to re evaluate the level of expenditure.
with the current climate, it's going to be harder to raise those sponsorship budgets which further adds to the preasure. when you look at how many F1 teams we've lost since the manufacturers became seriously involved ( for arguments sake say when renault took over benetton ) it's apparent that balancing the budgets is not going to be easy.
F1 has always had a reasonably high turnover of teams, the difference is that the manufacurers have raised the costs and standards so high that its very hard for a new team to start up, customer cars would have helped here but williams, despie being a customer team themselves when they started, oppose it as they feel that as a small constructor they would be penalised by 4 or more customer mclarens or ferraris. it's ironic that a team that are known for their love of racing have by blocking new entries possibly seriously damaged that racing.
the future? well renault have small costs and any political preasure to leave when they are laying off 5000 + workers has been reduced by alonso's late season results though if he leaves and the team fall to piquet levels of results, this may change. mclaren and ferrari are safe, both have healthy budgets with high media profiles, toyota seem to have a bullitproof relationship with panasonic and even if not toyota's size means that even with falling profits, the F1 team costs can be accomadated and of course there's the intrinsic value of surviving in F1 when a rival japanees company couldn't. BMW i assume will be ok as long as F1 revenue holds up but the parent company are suffering from a very heavy fall in profits ( if they put £ 40 mllion in the team it will equate to a tenth of profits ) and if the german Gp does go, it may feel that it's other racing efforts more accuratly reflect its possition and image.
williams, redbull and torro rosso are independants and as such will tailor their costs to their budget thoiugh the fact that berger has sold back his half of torro rosso may be some cause for concern as if bugets become squeazed, red bull may feel that merging the two teams would be prudent, and if others are struggling, then one well financed team may be able to achieve a serrious level of success. its the smallest team, force india, that may be in the best possition of the independants, they have a new technical partershp with mclaren and with their owner, they have the backing of a major industral organisation in an area of the world economy that is growing. also don't be surprised if a team involved with china happens, they've won the superleague, are developing in the space industry and as a country have a recent history of using support to promote their country's achievements and for a country that's run to comunist ideals, what would be better than winning in what to many is the ultimate capitalist sport.
in one way market forces may actually achieve what max has been trying to force on F1 if the recession contiues for any length of time, you may find that more outside suppliers become involved for assemblies such as gearboxes and possibly engines or that the existing teams are more keen to provide them to other teams, eventually we could even find ourselves ina similar situation to the '70s with ferrari and maybe 1 or 2 other teams using bespoke engines and gearboxes and the others all buying theirs either from the bespoke teams or even from an outside company or 2, renault and toyota for example may decide to leave as construcotrs and concentrate on being engine suppliers.
with the current climate, it's going to be harder to raise those sponsorship budgets which further adds to the preasure. when you look at how many F1 teams we've lost since the manufacturers became seriously involved ( for arguments sake say when renault took over benetton ) it's apparent that balancing the budgets is not going to be easy.
F1 has always had a reasonably high turnover of teams, the difference is that the manufacurers have raised the costs and standards so high that its very hard for a new team to start up, customer cars would have helped here but williams, despie being a customer team themselves when they started, oppose it as they feel that as a small constructor they would be penalised by 4 or more customer mclarens or ferraris. it's ironic that a team that are known for their love of racing have by blocking new entries possibly seriously damaged that racing.
the future? well renault have small costs and any political preasure to leave when they are laying off 5000 + workers has been reduced by alonso's late season results though if he leaves and the team fall to piquet levels of results, this may change. mclaren and ferrari are safe, both have healthy budgets with high media profiles, toyota seem to have a bullitproof relationship with panasonic and even if not toyota's size means that even with falling profits, the F1 team costs can be accomadated and of course there's the intrinsic value of surviving in F1 when a rival japanees company couldn't. BMW i assume will be ok as long as F1 revenue holds up but the parent company are suffering from a very heavy fall in profits ( if they put £ 40 mllion in the team it will equate to a tenth of profits ) and if the german Gp does go, it may feel that it's other racing efforts more accuratly reflect its possition and image.
williams, redbull and torro rosso are independants and as such will tailor their costs to their budget thoiugh the fact that berger has sold back his half of torro rosso may be some cause for concern as if bugets become squeazed, red bull may feel that merging the two teams would be prudent, and if others are struggling, then one well financed team may be able to achieve a serrious level of success. its the smallest team, force india, that may be in the best possition of the independants, they have a new technical partershp with mclaren and with their owner, they have the backing of a major industral organisation in an area of the world economy that is growing. also don't be surprised if a team involved with china happens, they've won the superleague, are developing in the space industry and as a country have a recent history of using support to promote their country's achievements and for a country that's run to comunist ideals, what would be better than winning in what to many is the ultimate capitalist sport.
in one way market forces may actually achieve what max has been trying to force on F1 if the recession contiues for any length of time, you may find that more outside suppliers become involved for assemblies such as gearboxes and possibly engines or that the existing teams are more keen to provide them to other teams, eventually we could even find ourselves ina similar situation to the '70s with ferrari and maybe 1 or 2 other teams using bespoke engines and gearboxes and the others all buying theirs either from the bespoke teams or even from an outside company or 2, renault and toyota for example may decide to leave as construcotrs and concentrate on being engine suppliers.
Williams oppose customer cars in the era of massive budgets and manufacturer involvement - if McLaren basically have four cars on the grid it would be highly likely that all four cars would be near the front. Back in 'them olde days' the bought cars were no more likely to be at the front, but obviously saved them the expense of building a car. I support their opposition of customer cars.
If you can call a few hundred million per year to race two cars small.
I don't think it's necessarily about results. Renault are just as like to pull out with the big companies suffering from all the economic scare mongering.
I believe that assuming any one of the manufacturers, other than perhaps Ferrari, will stay regardless of the economic situation is silly. Mercedes will pull out one day, why not tomorrow? They've proven their point, and now they can cut costs and spend the next 10 years using the recent WDC success as press release fodder. BMW? Why would they stay? Spend all that money to be 3rd? Toyota is just as crap as Honda really - how many years for how many podiums with how much money.
Bernie should be afraid. Very afraid.
Fortunately I have a plan. Monoposto spec racing cars could become the next F1, and I would be happy to put my car in the championship to help kick start it. 2 litre standard road engines, cheap (relatively) chassis. No driver aids. Fairly basic aerodynamics?
I jest, of course.Torro Rosso will be sold/closed once Red Bull get the best bits out of the team. Williams will go the wayof Tyrrell et al sooner rather than later.Force India will become the McLaren B-Team that will kill off any team, manufacturer or indie, that tries to do it in-house.
China might happen, but it'll be a while before they can compete with Europe overall. Superleague is a joke that nobody cares about, and it's just sapping money that could come to me.
We might. And if it's like that it'll be great. But as soon as a regulation is imposed to force standard engines and gearboxes, will be the moment millions of TVs get switched off from F1.
Max and Barny saved F1 in the 70s and 80s. Now they are killing it from the same thing they saved it from back then.
I've no objection to customer cars as a spectator, but do see the predicament Williams are in. With £40m of debt it might be an objection that passes away very soon, if it does, then how about regulations to standardise the mounting of engines.
Currently F1 cars are designed with harmony of the engine in mind, if parameters which effected this where narrowed than a customer car could use a different engine to the main team. We've seen the effect of this with Red Bull & Torro Rosso this year, with the two teams having a noteable disparity at different circuits.
Many of the teams get a lot of parts from common suppliers, i've mentioned before that Lola provide a lot of carbon fibre pieces for over half the teams, and even built the entire Super Aguri, there are other parts of the car too where the supply pool is quite limited.
The reality of the situation is that we're already not that far away from having customer cars, going one step further to me seems like no big deal.
Currently F1 cars are designed with harmony of the engine in mind, if parameters which effected this where narrowed than a customer car could use a different engine to the main team. We've seen the effect of this with Red Bull & Torro Rosso this year, with the two teams having a noteable disparity at different circuits.
Many of the teams get a lot of parts from common suppliers, i've mentioned before that Lola provide a lot of carbon fibre pieces for over half the teams, and even built the entire Super Aguri, there are other parts of the car too where the supply pool is quite limited.
The reality of the situation is that we're already not that far away from having customer cars, going one step further to me seems like no big deal.
Becky, when you watch A1GP or GP2 do you even think about the teams? Being a standard car means that the teams are just a livery, and very little attention is given to them other than the quality of their setup abilities.
One make series are not good if you want a team championship, or want the teams to be part of it. Whilst I appreciate that not everyone loves the technical side of F1, the whole of the sport will suffer if that is lost to spec cars.
One make series are not good if you want a team championship, or want the teams to be part of it. Whilst I appreciate that not everyone loves the technical side of F1, the whole of the sport will suffer if that is lost to spec cars.
It has been the worst-run team in F1 since they got rid of Dave Richards. I'm not surprised they've pulled the plug on it.
tris, notice i said ferrari and mclaren not ferrari and mercedes, whilst merc are heavily involved with mclaren, as far as i gather, like the ferrari F1 team, they are run as seperate entities with their own financing and don't involve the parent co in any expenditure.indeed the next mclaren road car appears to be in direct competition with the next merc supercar.
ferrari, despte reports that phillip morris wish to terminate their sponsorship earlier than agreed, are once again financially seperate from the road car company, indeed with ferrari road cars profit predictions dropping again they could almost be in the position of being able to inject cash into the road company (kimi's yearly wages are aprox 5 times the road cars predicted yearly profits)
re renault, like toyota and BMW most of the costs are sponsor covered, but yes i agree they may be forced out if the parent co keeps having to cut back, as i said later on, they could become an engine suplier again.
regarding superleague, i agree its a joke but apperently it's here to stay with increased numbers of teams and races next year. china would i assume be able to pick up one of a few teams ready made if the recession continues so a lot of the catch up time would be avoided, anyway i suspect any team would be run by existing racing people from an existing headquaters with a few visible china elements and a huge injection of cash.
re your final point, i agree 10000000% it will be great if the make up of F1 reverts to a '70s model and far far far far better than the standard engines plan
ferrari, despte reports that phillip morris wish to terminate their sponsorship earlier than agreed, are once again financially seperate from the road car company, indeed with ferrari road cars profit predictions dropping again they could almost be in the position of being able to inject cash into the road company (kimi's yearly wages are aprox 5 times the road cars predicted yearly profits)
re renault, like toyota and BMW most of the costs are sponsor covered, but yes i agree they may be forced out if the parent co keeps having to cut back, as i said later on, they could become an engine suplier again.
regarding superleague, i agree its a joke but apperently it's here to stay with increased numbers of teams and races next year. china would i assume be able to pick up one of a few teams ready made if the recession continues so a lot of the catch up time would be avoided, anyway i suspect any team would be run by existing racing people from an existing headquaters with a few visible china elements and a huge injection of cash.
re your final point, i agree 10000000% it will be great if the make up of F1 reverts to a '70s model and far far far far better than the standard engines plan
You do realise the original McLaren F1 Roadcar was scrapped when the project broke even because it had a BMW engine and Mercedese where like "Nooooes, thou shalt build Mercedese. Only more reliable."
definatly, great move that to remove richards after a very succesfull season, honda have consistenlty medled in the team whilst toyota have stayed a respectfull distance away for most of the time.
in an ideal world prodrive would take them over but i can't help feeling that the cureent huge downturn in aston's sales ( 39 in november compared to 142 last year ) may cause richards to be cautious about getting involved
yes i do
the point is that if money was reliant on mercedes mclaren wouldn't be able to design a direct competitor to mercedes, the F1 roadcar's BMW engine was a bit difference, a bit like being in a relationship with someone and being told you really shouldn't still be having sex with your ex. the new car with a merc engine will be more a case of masturbating whilst looking at a video you and your partner made together.I must have a lot to learn about relationships, me and my partner have been making this video: http://www.bansheestudios.com/film-preview-virtus-mortis
. I dont know about you but I dont forsee a time when i'll get my jollies off to it ! 
I think the two companies are closer than you credit them as being, McLaren have been making the top end Mercs for a while, well - the fancy carbon fibre Mercs are built at CRS Special Projects in Huntingdon, a subdivision of Lola. I had the pleasure of doing a corporate kart race with them some years back and joined their team in order to stuff the Lola 'race car' team, which we did.
The relationship between Mercedese and McLaren road cars is very tightly interwoven, the badge that gets put on the front is purely a marketing decision.
too much detail lol
Don't forget he was rather good against the ferraris in 2004, and not every idiot wins an F1 race, although Alonso and Schumacher screwed up, he did put in an excellent drive.
Honda shot themselves in the foot by sacking Richards, if by the very remote chance he becomes involved in the team once again, seeing as he has some involvement in Aston Martin, perhaps we could see an Aston Martin F1 car.
Aston aren't exactly in a position to be running teams either, also I ehard talk that the Lola Aston would become an Aston at some point, but the ACO's engine rule changes have killed any chance of that.
EDIT: http://www.f1technical.net/news/11195
Methinks the FIA are basically telling all the manufacturer teams to 'get lost' in a rather subtle and diplomatic manner. The FIA have contradicted themselves by demanding cost cuts but also forcing expensive KERS systems, meanwhile Bernie is making it impossible to for tracks to afford to run GPs, I think F1's days are numbered.
Also the F1 teams have been suggesting other viable cost cutting measures, just like the FIA asked them too, and the FIA has simply rejected every one of them.
They're doing their best to alienate everyone; teams, drivers and fans.
Perhaps the guys at Ferrari could open their mouths and do something good for once and make a genuine threat to quit, I'd like to see what the FIA would do then.
Enzo would turn in his grave if Ferrari quit F1. The money situation with GP tracks has been going on a decade or more already, and Jenson still sucks.
I am inclined to say F1 isnt about to die any time soon, then again I didnt believe the US Grand Prix would ever run with 6 cars - F1 has proven that sometimes it's ability to deliver is hamstrung. So whilst there will always be a premier motorsport series at least, it may not be F1, but in all probability it will be.
Usually in times of crisis a strong leader is needed, unfortunately F1 has Max Mosley who's recent escapades have left an air of no confidence in the industry. I wonder if the teams will tollerate being spoken at by a man who conjures up a rather crude kinky image whenever he goes on the war path.
Certainly Max is trying to play hardball with the new engine proposal, and Honda quitting can be dismissed as financial rather than as a direct result of that. I rather suspect however that more than 1 factor was behind Honda pulling out, and if Max Mosley had stepped down when he should have then Honda might have been more inclined to stay.
These same propositions coming from anyone else might have more credibility, and here's the problem, F1 does not have credibility anymore. I think more teams will leave and all it takes now is for the teams to ask for a greater share of the prize fund to stop that from happening and F1 could be in trouble making its loan repayments to RBS.
The bottom line is F1 *CAN* support the current investment infrastructure, otherwise this situation would never have arrisen. The problem is that currently most of it's income is being spent repaying RBS. So here is a doomsday scenario for you...
If more teams threaten to quit over financial issues unless the current unsigned concorde agreement awards greater financial reward to the teams from the prize fund, F1 may have to default on its re-payments to RBS. If it does this then Max Mosley will finaly be out, and in its place the sport will come under the control of a nationalised British bank - making Gordon Brown the governor.
Now that really is a scary thought, replacing someone who dresses as a nazi for somebody who is one.
Edit: Mind you if that was to happen then in all probability the appointed man to run the show would be Alan Donnelly, the corrupt FIA steward and Labour European MP and Mosley's right hand man. So I guess nothing would change.
I am inclined to say F1 isnt about to die any time soon, then again I didnt believe the US Grand Prix would ever run with 6 cars - F1 has proven that sometimes it's ability to deliver is hamstrung. So whilst there will always be a premier motorsport series at least, it may not be F1, but in all probability it will be.
Usually in times of crisis a strong leader is needed, unfortunately F1 has Max Mosley who's recent escapades have left an air of no confidence in the industry. I wonder if the teams will tollerate being spoken at by a man who conjures up a rather crude kinky image whenever he goes on the war path.
Certainly Max is trying to play hardball with the new engine proposal, and Honda quitting can be dismissed as financial rather than as a direct result of that. I rather suspect however that more than 1 factor was behind Honda pulling out, and if Max Mosley had stepped down when he should have then Honda might have been more inclined to stay.
These same propositions coming from anyone else might have more credibility, and here's the problem, F1 does not have credibility anymore. I think more teams will leave and all it takes now is for the teams to ask for a greater share of the prize fund to stop that from happening and F1 could be in trouble making its loan repayments to RBS.
The bottom line is F1 *CAN* support the current investment infrastructure, otherwise this situation would never have arrisen. The problem is that currently most of it's income is being spent repaying RBS. So here is a doomsday scenario for you...
If more teams threaten to quit over financial issues unless the current unsigned concorde agreement awards greater financial reward to the teams from the prize fund, F1 may have to default on its re-payments to RBS. If it does this then Max Mosley will finaly be out, and in its place the sport will come under the control of a nationalised British bank - making Gordon Brown the governor.
Now that really is a scary thought, replacing someone who dresses as a nazi for somebody who is one.
Edit: Mind you if that was to happen then in all probability the appointed man to run the show would be Alan Donnelly, the corrupt FIA steward and Labour European MP and Mosley's right hand man. So I guess nothing would change.
Everyone on this forum chip in a tenner and we have an F1 Team!
Im No.1 driver though obviously :P
Im No.1 driver though obviously :P
LFS Dream Team
Driver: Tristan Cliffe (nothing gets the fans behind you more than being an underdog team, having Tristan as the driver ensures that every near victory is marked with a spin off whilst going down a straight).
2nd Driver: Felplacerad (he looks like Nick Neidfeld so we can maybe get some German engines in)
Press Officer: kev thisnameistaken (he'll make sure that no members of the press interfere with the team when we're busy)
Team Manager: Jack Green jakg (when the press start digging up private lives we need a puppet who has already posted every bit of dirt about himself on the forum so there is nothing new to find)
Sponsor Liason: Dustin Dawes dawesdust_12 (When he isnt cracking jokes we can still laugh at him, the perfect candidate for entertaining those millionaire guests)
KERS Design: lerts (we all know KERS is going to be a big failure anyway, but there's no harm trying - right? Who better than the inventor of perpetual motion)
Grid Girl: Scawen (well he does have lovely hair)
Driver: Tristan Cliffe (nothing gets the fans behind you more than being an underdog team, having Tristan as the driver ensures that every near victory is marked with a spin off whilst going down a straight).
2nd Driver: Felplacerad (he looks like Nick Neidfeld so we can maybe get some German engines in)
Press Officer: kev thisnameistaken (he'll make sure that no members of the press interfere with the team when we're busy)
Team Manager: Jack Green jakg (when the press start digging up private lives we need a puppet who has already posted every bit of dirt about himself on the forum so there is nothing new to find)
Sponsor Liason: Dustin Dawes dawesdust_12 (When he isnt cracking jokes we can still laugh at him, the perfect candidate for entertaining those millionaire guests)
KERS Design: lerts (we all know KERS is going to be a big failure anyway, but there's no harm trying - right? Who better than the inventor of perpetual motion)
Grid Girl: Scawen (well he does have lovely hair)
Honda to withdraw from F1 by March 2009
(74 posts, started )
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