JUST DRIVE (inverted or not)

I would like to discuss these points with you in a non-aggressive way, as I feel that part of a sim experience is down to your personal expectiations (of what a race car behaves like), your mindset, you controller settings and a whole lot more...
I'm NOT having a go at you, and I'm trying to remain civilised and unbaised in my opinion of nK and LFS.

Quote from ajp71 :

- Online NP good FPS I'm not going to complain about FPS dips at the start, sure N2003 maybe better but nK is a lot worse. No lag seen at all.

Gotta agree with you there- nK's online is seriously flawed at the moment.

Quote from ajp71 :

- HUDs look really arcady I've now decided that I seriously don't want to use them any more after finding a sim where I can run without them without being in the dark.

You know me, I'd love to have no overlays in LFS. But in nK the overlays haven't been replaced with any other source of information. I can't see my rear tyres, the wheels never seem to visibly lock, and the temperatures don't make much of a difference if they are too hot. I'm finding setup tweaks a lot harder because changing the camber has very little effect on grip though heat...
And then nK pops up with a message saying 'Wing2 damaged', which is kind of arcedey isn't it? There is a balance to be had between no information and too much, and neither sim is there yet from a realism point of view.

Quote from ajp71 :

- Like having a proper tach rather than the electric one in nK.

Agreed, but I like the flashing shift lights, rather than the perfect gear change light we have in LFS. If I made a racing car I'd use a Stack display with a conventional rev counter and the rest LCD, but I can cope with a numerical siplay of revs if I have to.

Quote from ajp71 :

- LFS kind of lost the immersion factor when the first thing you see when you mid-race join is a Ferrari look a like that looks like it's been made in paint then when pulling out the pits you have to avoid some keyboard user doing doughnuts. Not trying to defend nK with these comments as obviously if you can't go online you can't get the immersion factor ruined by this kind of thing.

Are you referring to non-real cars here or poorly made, low res skins? All I see online are white cars in nK, even if they have chosen a default supplied skin. When nK has skin downloading (a planned feature I think) then you'll see poorly painted cars all over the place.

Quote from ajp71 :

- I quite like starting the engine makes it feel abit more like getting in a car for real.

I agree with this, but I also agree that it's kind of pointless as it's just something you have to do and could become annoying after a while. Perhaps the engine should be started when you get in the car, but the possibility of stalling on the grid/after a spin etc.

Quote from ajp71 :

- No feel of understeer whatsoever in LFS never goes light just hear a skiding sound.

Hmmm, this is a tough one. I've never been that convinced that steering goes light in a real car (MX-5 or F3 car) wehen understeering, not as much as, say, rF's did. But I don't get this in nK either. Could you post you're controller config (windows, LFS and nK) so that I may see what you're experiencing... I find in nK I can't really tell if I'm understeering, but in LFS, sound or no sound, I can. But maybe thats because I'm used to LFS and I've already stated I think we all need a couple of weeks at least to get our heads around a new sim.

Quote from ajp71 :

- You don't feel the suspension loading in LFS, this has to be one of the best bits of nK, when you do manage to find a hill you really feel the suspension getting compresed and the massive increase in grip it gives you.

I do feel it in LFS, and I do feel it in nK. I think it's a bit exaggerated in nK, but I think it's a bit underdone in LFS, so a happy medium could be found here. Remember that in a real car the feeling of the springs compressing will only be felt through your body, not through the steering wheel in the same way, other than the increased steering resistance as the tyres are forced into the ground/lighter as they take off.

Quote from ajp71 :

- LFS feels like the FF is based off the angle of the car relative to the direction of movement in an almost 2D way.

You need to really think about what you're trying to say here, as it's not very clear, which is possibly why it got flamed before. Whilst FFB technology (thanks to Immersion who haven't actually done ANYTHING for about 5 years) is crap, the sims derrivation of the forces isn't bad overall. I can still feel LFS's FFB much better, but again that might be because I'm used to it. I will reconsider this in a couple of weeks of nKing.

Quote from ajp71 :

- I skimmed a barrier and would have bent a suspension arm in nK same goes for getting hit at T1 the next race.

As tweak said this isn't because the code is flawed or because Scawen is stupid, it's a choice he made to satisfy the requirements of damage at this early stage. Yes LFS's cars are stronger in this regard, but do you really think formula cars are as weak as in nk? Again, a happy medium could be reached between the two sims.

Quote from ajp71 :

- I locked up all over the place in nK you can really brake and really know when you've locked up.

I don't know when I've locked up. I don't even know when I'm close to locking up. The first I know about it is the FFB vibrations [poor wheel]. I also don't get the same retardation all the time. Sometimes I can jump on the pedal one lap and barely scrub of speed, other times I have to accelerate again to make the corner. I can't judge the braking at all in nK.

Quote from ajp71 :

- You have to use the kerbs to be fast in LFS and unlike nK they tend to be flat and easilly ridden with no consequences.

Yes, LFS's kerbs are rather dull, whilst nK's are serrated. This is because LFS's track are reversible (a good thing - more tracks for free) whilst nK's are not. One solution I would like to see is have LFS's kerbs dynamically serrated - i.e. the serrations swap direction on a reversed track rather than being true 3D models in the track file. Is that even possible?

Quote from ajp71 :

- Putting a wheel on the grass in both sims results in a realistic loss of control.

Yes I think it probably does. But in nK there's no consequences. As far as I can tell the dirt on the tyre isn't affecting grip AT ALL in nK. Sure it might be a bit too effective in LFS, but at least you can feel it. Is nK's dirt on the tyre texture just for show, or does it actually do anything?



One of these posts had a video called 'VideoThingy'. This was made by my team mate vMax.Munko. It was him and me racing. The video is made from onboard his car, so the other car sliding all over the place and driven by a noob is me. You can see the cars don't seem to fit the world (it looks like they've been photoshopped in), but you can also see the suspension working a couple of times as I come of the kerbs. So of the video shows nK's depth, whilst other parts of it show how poor nK is, and how unrealistic the behaviour of the cars can be at times. Anyway, I kept Munko behind me for about 12 laps before I made a mistake, despite his TeamSpeak taunts. T'was good fun, and I learnt a lot about nK last night doing so. With more racing like that (it was closer than it looks in the video) I'd be a happy bunny. I rarely get racing like that in LFS, and so far I've been unable to work out why that is.


As I said, I'm NOT flaming you, I'm hoping we can have a sensible mature discussion about this. LFS still wins in my book (actually by a large margin) but nK isn't as bad as a lot of people want to make out.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

JUST DRIVE (inverted or not)

At first that slogan looked like it should be 'cool', but after I played nK I realized there's far more truth in it than I first thought. If I do what it says and "just drive", yes then nK is a pleasurable experience. It kinda feels like a 200% more detailed namie which is good, but then again wasn't nK Pro supposed to be a total rewrite? How come the same kind of bugs are in it again? It has flaws, but then again, it's already a million times better than any ISI engine based game, IMO.

Anyways, I don't think nK deserves a lot of the hate it gets but I wonder if they really thought they could archieve what they propagated (a highly polished professional sim) or if it was a severe case of wishful thinking (or a scam to lure in many pre payers? I highly doubt that, though).

Quote from Tweaker :

Don't feel the understeer through the wheel as it doesn't get lighter? WHY O WHY does everyone think that NetKar has an ultimately correct understeer FF effect, when in fact it is not the case in nearly every car. You hardly feel that understeer effect in real cars, and about the only thing you would feel so much tension loss is in a little go-kart. LFS doesn't just have 'screeching' tires when you get understeer, and if you cannot feel the understeer through your wheel in LFS, then you probably should drive some real cars and stop thinking Netkar's excessive 'weight-loss' on the wheel is so 'realistic' :rolleyes:.

I have only ever felt understeer in Minis where the car does go light, in LFS I really honestly can't feel understeer coming on so even if nK is wrong I can still feel it.

I made certain comments about the immersion factor being ruined in LFS by online behaviour I wasn't saying nK would be better or worse in this aspect.

@Tweak please find a post where I have said that I've felt totally happy with any car in LFS? Having only just started playing nK I've yet to find what doesn't feel right in it.

Can we just stop all this fanboy crap your as much a fanboy of LFS as I am to nK as far as I can see your just be deliberatley awkward and as I still take you seriously that's far more annoying than Kid's verbal diarrhea you speak English as your first language and should be able to work out what I meant. I still like LFS because it has working multiplayer and a larger diversity of cars and tracks but IMO the physics don't feel quite right. I don't like ISI sims but won't go round bashing people who play them I'm sure to some people they can feel right to me the feel like a glorified SCGT.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

JUST DRIVE (inverted or not)

Play a new record, please, this ones driving me crazy.

If you dont like it for whatever reason, dont play it. Simple.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You know me, I'd love to have no overlays in LFS. But in nK the overlays haven't been replaced with any other source of information. I can't see my rear tyres, the wheels never seem to visibly lock, and the temperatures don't make much of a difference if they are too hot. I'm finding setup tweaks a lot harder because changing the camber has very little effect on grip though heat...

I don't know how much serious testing you've done yet in your Reynard but we never have problems with tires overheating except on very hot days (1 race in 3 years) we always have more issues getting heat into the tires (the whole F4 series use Avon tires in a variety of crossply/radial sizes to suit each chassis). We run a large amount of camber to try and get heat into the tires in the 20 minutes or so the cars run for. I think LFS's downfall in this department is it runs with ridiculously soft tires and you may well find nK uses a similar compound to R3/4 tires.

Quote :

I've never been that convinced that steering goes light in a real car (MX-5 or F3 car) wehen understeering, not as much as, say, rF's did. But I don't get this in nK either. Could you post you're controller config (windows, LFS and nK) so that I may see what you're experiencing...

I'd associate understeer with this type of light feeling (and heavy under power in a FWD) but as I said I've only had understeer in a Mini. The big FWD cars in LFS do feel right when understeering under power. Will go and check my config.

Quote :

You need to really think about what you're trying to say here, as it's not very clear, which is possibly why it got flamed before.

What I'm trying to say is that LFS FF seems to be connected to the whole car where as nK feels like it's connected to the steering. I'm sure LFS can feel right to some people but to me it just doesn't feel natural.

Logitech DFP (untouched except for squash ball)

My settings in LFS analogue steer smooth is set to 0

Never touched any nK control setting.

Quote from Tweaker :

*long post*

Very disappointed at your answer. In my mind ajp's posts have been far less (if at all) trolling and still you come and throw fuel on the flames, so to speak.

Can't you understand that not everybody agrees with you?

Are you allowed to like other sims on this forum?

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

JUST DRIVE (inverted or not)

I think you made that pretty clear already. Why you keep wasting your energy on bashing nk?

Quote from ajp71 :

What I'm trying to say is that LFS FF seems to be connected to the whole car where as nK feels like it's connected to the steering. I'm sure LFS can feel right to some people but to me it just doesn't feel natural.

To me the base feel is pretty much the same . Also I'm 100% sure LFS' FF is generated from the steering column, too.

nK seems to have more (exaggerated?) effects added to it, but at the same time I have more trouble spotting the finer nuances, like when the rear end is going to lose grip. Speaking of that, why is it that all my accidental spins came totally out of the blue and I still have no idea why they happend?

Besides that, anybody else getting weird controller hiccups from time to time? Like wheel and pedals aren't being polled for half a second (at worst), usually mid corner, causing me to kiss the wall and getting catapulted to 'critical error' land.


PS: "......." hey ajp, here are a few periods for you. No offence but please use them more frequently as you seem to get carried away in your train of thought creating ultra long sentences where the reader desperately wants to find an end causing confusion and misunderstandings while totally forgetting what the start of the sentence was about for example look at this one.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Besides that, anybody else getting weird controller hiccups from time to time? Like wheel and pedals aren't being polled for half a second (at worst), usually mid corner, causing me to kiss the wall and getting catapulted to 'critical error' land.

Likely to be FPS related try pressing shift + F to see your FPS. nK seems to need very high FPS to work properly (over 30) like GPL did (it needed 36). I know that 30 FPS is nothing for a lot of high spec systems but LFS will still work with almost no steering lag a lot lower than that.

Quote :

PS: "......." hey ajp, here are a few periods for you. No offence but please use them more frequently as you seem to get carried away in your train of thought creating ultra long sentences where the reader desperately wants to find an end causing confusion and misunderstandings while totally forgetting what the start of the sentence was about for example look at this one.

Point taken

Quote from AndroidXP :

Besides that, anybody else getting weird controller hiccups from time to time? Like wheel and pedals aren't being polled for half a second (at worst), usually mid corner, causing me to kiss the wall and getting catapulted to 'critical error' land.

yep! driving with the momo racing here get exactly what uve described. Gues with the FF it will be fixed, it is a little too strong on the rumble side when tires flatspotted as already mentioned but i agree with you on the the point that you made about the spinning and not knowing why. Its odd, sometimes i am going through a corner with tons of grip so i apply throttle feeling confident that it will grip and suddenly i am facing 180 the otherway with no warning that it was going to happen in the FF.

mad

Real single seaters are sometimes prone to inexplicable spins, particuarly those which aren't setup well possibly the default sets aren't very good.

Quote from ajp71 :

Likely to be FPS related try pressing shift + F to see your FPS. nK seems to need very high FPS to work properly (over 30) like GPL did (it needed 36). I know that 30 FPS is nothing for a lot of high spec systems but LFS will still work with almost no steering lag a lot lower than that.

Just checked and I pretty much have 60-65 fps everywhere. The lowest I got was 55 in one corner, but anywhere else it's pretty constant. Details are all to max and I'm running on 1280x960x32.

One funny thing I saw when watching the fps: apparently when you leave the track the physics switch to a lower detailed model! Everytime I left the track (drove onto the grass) my fps shot from average 64 to 80. As soon as I got back on the track the fps went down again

Ok, I dunno how I did this, but suddenly the ingame wheel is much more responsive. Also my fps average on 80 now. I don't know if the hiccups are gone, but the wheel is atleast not lagging behind as much.

What I did:

• Lower the resolution to 1280x960 (was 1280x1024 on accident)
  
• Activate 2xAA
  
• Set the "max frames to prerender" to "1" in my GFX card drivers menu/D3D options <- I think that did the trick
  
• OC the card by 2%
  

I get about 45 FPS derestricted (I always put a cap on) and found no difference going on the grass until loads of dirt had been kicked up and I saw a drop. I find I get low FPS in the pitlane.

nK doesn't seem to support AA when I tried running it with 6x (what I use for LFS) I got pathetic frame rates and no visual difference.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Set the "max frames to prerender" to "1" in my GFX card drivers menu/D3D options <- I think that did the trick

What sort of card are you using is there an equivilent setting for an ATI 9600 Pro, couldn't find it.

Grah, now the fps stay the same too
Maybe it was just that he didn't have to calculate as much shinyness of the track when going off...

Oh and AA works. If you know/do two things:
1) If you use a profiler you have to hook it to nks.exe
2) If you don't use transparency AA (which is only supported by modern cards) then the trees and the horizon still look jaggy, because they are apparently alphatest-textures. I did notice a difference on the white track lines for example

Quote from ajp71 :

What sort of card are you using is there an equivilent setting for an ATI 9600 Pro, couldn't find it.

I dunno if you have the option on ATi cards, but this thread gave me the pointer.

Yes, it helped a lot. I haven't yet truly tested it as I uninstalled my wheel drivers while trying to get rid of the lag. Now I can't find the cd

The info is in the thread

Quote from AndroidXP :

1) If you use a profiler you have to hook it to nks.exe

I use a constant profile because it's much easier to cope with GEM/GTP and netkar.

I think the profiler referred to is the 3d graphics profiler for your video drivers, not for your controller.

As for the pre-rendered frames and ATI users, I recommend two things:

1) Use the Omega Drivers (driverheaven.net)
2) Install ATI Tray Tools (linked to when getting the omega drivers)

In the tray tools application, adjust the directx pageflip option, this is the equivalent option. It will likely help with this if you are experiencing input lag.

I also remember seeing a couple of people reporting some trouble (crontoler lag) that cleared itself after moving from 1280x1024 to 1280x960 (which is proper aspect anyways).

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Very wise, my son. Very wise indeed.

lol

Meh - manage to get online, get some wins and pb's, meet some friendly LFS people (Mr Mos and Mr Cobb, and maybe more in hiding that I don't know the surname of), and the damn server disconnects. And having been on the server for an hour, I can't remember what is was called, so I can't rejoin even if it's in the list (which I don't think it is).

Anyway, time to sketch the uber track I wanna made in 3DS

what track is this?