Quote from Guthix :

However this is one of the things that make me prefer developing companies over "private" projects like this. Things are done faster, usually.

LOL ..... sorry, you may be right generally speaking, but when GT4 was delayed for 2 years (and online play delayed even longer here in the US, I gave up on it ..... and found LFS and my eyes were opened to what a real sim could be and what results when online play is given priority over eye candy and 600 useless cars. And Polyphony was even more uninformative about the delays despite epic complaining on the forums.

Despite the delays, I find LFS much more "successful" as a sim, and the delays and lack of communication at times much more tolerable than Polyphony's efforts. And much more "human" - less "bureaucratic", less hype and for the most part more responsive to users. The GT community forums were populated by the more avid racers - all clamoring for online play for years and wondering why the corporation was so uncommunicative with it's most dedicated users (though that group was a SMALL percentage of all the users). Appealing to the demands of the few "serious" racers wouldn't increase the mass sales to casual users that they were aiming for. Online play wasn't a priority apparently. Little did we know at the time, but LFS had already been there done that!! And done it well.

In my case, it was the delay and poor communication by a major developer that got me on the right track, so to speak

I do miss the good ol' days when Scawen would share frequently - things like vids of getting to test the real FBM. I'm sure Scawen misses those days of real "community" as well - at least I hope so. It was such a contrast (and still is) to the distance and sterility of Polyphony's mass marketing mediocrity.

+1

Thanks for the update ..... not surprised about the carnage - it is a dangerous combo :hyper: which is why I ran on about consistency and groove.

Sorry I didn't get to post sooner - but the tips on practice apply to any of the many dangerous combos (and even the non-dangerous). In a nutshell - for race preparation -> practice racing not hotlapping. This will increase your chances of survival.

You might consider revisiting the combo from time to time - when you do get your lines down smooth you really should be able to get R2 tires in front to last a long time (1 hour) at this track. Like I said - good way to judge your progress is to see your times get faster but your tires stay cooler.

See ya on the track

Some very good tips from truepiece etc on finding better lines.

But while hotlapping will certainly help gauge your progress, it will only help so much for achieving race consistency - especially with combos like this one where there are so many ways to die.

So a few words about race practice and pace may also be helpful since you are looking to race the combo:

First, a couple of questions. Are you using R2 front and rear in your replay? Any how many laps are you expecting for the upcoming race?

Reason I ask is - clearly your tires won't last for even a short race using the setup, tire type and/or driving technique you show in the replay. If you have R3 in front, then you will need a different setup or more importantly, better technique. The R3 should last indefinitely if your lines are smooth (which they aren't in the replay). For that matter, R2 fronts should also last with this combo with proper technique/setup (see below).

To get your tires to last, truepiece's advice on hitting the apex should help .... Another way to put it - "slow in, fast out". In your replay, your right front tire is over-heating from late braking and then having to overpower the exit (car slides more - heats outside tires). More on this below.

So - some tips on practicing for a race:

1) I rarely do hot laps when practicing for a race. Especially when the hot lap setup is using a softer tire combo. Better to find a "groove" with your race setup/tires.

2) I practice starting with tires at the cooler starting temp that you will be faced with during a race. This way you will be familiar with the changes in feel as the tires warm during the race. If you drive smooth consistent lines, you should be able to see some improvement in each lap as the tires warm.

3) As you practice (with cool tires at the start) - find a pace that allows you to go many laps without major damage. In this case - at least 10 lap sessions. No point in being fast for a lap or 2 if you don't survive laps 3, 4, etc. As you find a "groove" in a session try increasing your pace somewhat - not by braking later, but by carrying a little more speed into a given turn.

4) Practicing with cool tires at the start also allows you to judge both how your setup and driving technique handle the tire heat over the duration of a race - so that you can adjust as necessary.

5) Be aware that your race pace will be well off your hotlap pace - especially if the race and hotlap setups use different tires. Do NOT try to match your hotlap pace in any case. Brake earlier - this emphasizes the "slow in, fast out" approach.

I'm no "alien" - but you may learn something from the replay attached. It's a 10 lap race in single player mode (with a pit stop). All 7 flying laps are between 1:10.50 and 1:10.70. That is most of a second off my hotlap time. I could thus turn faster laps but that would probably lead to sudden death or overheated tires :-/

I have also included the set (R2/R2) that I used in the replay. Like you, I generally don't like "hotlap" setups for race use - both because they are more ticklish to control and they general have more tire heat issues. You should find that this set is pretty "stable". "Aliens" will be able to turn even faster laps without overheating the front - I'm still working on that as a general thing for all combos - it's one way you know you're improving: faster times with less tire heating.

Hope you find this helpful

I've had a few ties to the hundredth second - racing against real humans ..... I'm sure many of us have

Best one I've had was back in 2009 in the BF1 at South City.

Not only tied for the race time (6 laps) but also for the best laps!!!

Pictures speaks a thousand words

Maybe trying to avoid getting flamed for starting a new thread on a subject already discussed ..... instead ......... flamed for bumping

Original post prolly belongs in "Improvement Suggestions" anyway

@ TRKAC - the devs have made it pretty clear that their focus is making a sim not an arcade game ..... and with only one main programmer, they have priorities ya know. There are plenty of arcade racing games out there ......

Yes Ms Rose, I see your point about "sterile environment" and pushing the limits - and accepted Would be interesting to see in practice

At my age almost everybody is a "kid" so I have lots to moan about (including my own). My reactions still haven't slowed too much - I play on a softball team with mostly 20 and 30-something "kids" .... as the pitcher, i often get my reflexes tested with a line drive "come-backer" (and still have my teeth)

Still racing is not all about reflexes, it's also about spatial awareness, geometric projection, judgement, strategy, patience .......... ohhhh shucks, those are all fading too

Quote from Becky Rose :

I dont want to chase endless laps drilling in perfection, practice yes, but without the dynamicism of an environmental simulation the core gameplay of all simulators is totally at odds with the experience of actually racing and instead are games whereby the youthful ability to recreate and be repetetive is the most rewarded skill.

Then don't be a hotlapper Yeah sure I know you are (were) a racer both on the web and RL - but then you should know that LFS races, especially close battles, don't allow for much perfect lap questing. It's about dealing with the guy on your rear or the guy in front and making adjustments, finding a new line to defend or attack. And of course there's dealing with tire temperature and wear - especially on the longer races..... pushing too hard can cost you later. etc etc etc If OL racing is challenging under those conditions - imagine if all the variables you mention were included - the dedicated and skilled would enjoy the challenge, but in casual pickup races, there would be even more carnage and angry drivers.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see all sorts or transient variables introduced ...... I'm just being realistic about the consequences. Is it more important than tire physics?? On that I'll trust they judgement of the devs.

My general 2 cents on this topic - the devs got away from game development as a "normal business" to do their own thing .... and then share it with others when possible. I see this move as a "work of art" (who really wants to debate here if it really is a sim - there are plenty of esoteric forums where such debates are the main course).

Considering it as a work of "art" - do folks feel right barging into the studio and demanding to see the work in progress? Or suggesting the artist is doing it all wrong, and should use acrylics instead of oils? Or make it bigger or smaller?

Yes, the "artist" might be said to owe some debt to their "public" - but that's another academic discussion, and to no avail here (and honestly pretty insulting when carried on in the artists living room).

Sure, I'd like to see the devs hang out in their living room more. But I don't expect it is a very pleasing experience for them, given the tone and content of many of the posts.

So to the devs, kudos for the masterpiece!!! You've got it right so far, and I hope the next is even more compelling

Edit - Noticed the "youthful ability" phrase - so I felt it might be relevant that I'm 62 years young and really take exception with this AGISM

Last edited by easyed, Sun, 25 Mar 2012 21:19. Reason : noticed the "youthful ability" phrase :)

oh I remember it well Still have the vinyl recording

Now if I could just remember where I put my teeth and my grandkids names

Quote from daveb948576 :

the only thing i can see is when the tire is low to sustain a suitable amount of grip, the side wall flex is too much, but if you put more air in the tire to stop the side wall flex there isn't enough friction between road and tire contact point, can't win!

i can understand the tire has a higher pressure when hot but there is no in-between to suit a half decent driving style. you either go slow to keep the heat down which loses races or go as fast as you can to try and win but you gain too much heat as there is no 'middle' between 'low pressure/grip' or 'higher pressure + tire life/less grip. where is the average/middle?

Many of us have been where you are - surprised somebody else hasn't said something about this.

I'll try to be clear (maybe blunt) - don't blame the tire heat for this "problem"!! First your comment is much too generalized - some few cars seemingly overheat tires too much, but many or most cars can be driven til the tread wears too thin and they blowout. But some cars can be prone to overheat tires - yes......but there is a lesson to be learned not a gripe about the tires. I'll explain: I've raced with some "aliens" in, for example, the FXO. The harder I tried to catch them - the more my tires overheated and my lap times dropped. I'd check their car and see that after x laps, their tires were still optimal (or close). I'd ask for and receive their setup .... try some more - same result. They'd be 1-2 sec faster, their tires optimal, mine toast. Hmmmmm - so what gives????

Call it skill ... the exact details of skill can't be so well communicated in words. Try this - download the wr lap for the FXO at SO4R (attached it for you below) and watch the replay from above. Watch for the rubber left on the road and listen to the tire sounds. What you should notice is that he is leaving almost no rubber on the road in the turns past the apex!!!! I'll wager you that if you try the same combo and then watch your replay, you'll see lots of rubber late in the turns and hear that squealing sound way more than on the wr lap.

So the lesson - "pushing" the car on exit doesn't make you faster AND overheats the tires. Sorry, but there is an "in-between" and it is YOU. You can learn form the tire heat where and how you are messing up. I was once frustrated like you are now - and faulted the sim ..... now I'm frustrated but fault myself. I have gotten better at controlling heat and getting fast times, but I am no alien. It is a mark of the quality of the game that some (aliens) do manage this so well while others struggle.

And it strikes me that this is fairly "realistic" as a general principle - wasn't there that race movie where the young racer chews up the tires with his aggressiveness but the seasoned racer knows how to pace the car - it is part of racing isn't it. Don't expect to drive multi-lap races in hotlap mode.

Regarding tire pressure specifically - in many situations, increasing tire pressure beyond a certain point actually causes tires to heat up more because they will slip more easily. Increasing tire pressure is not always the solution - but controlling slip by skilled lines will always help - just few of us master it.

the Dead Men Racing server is featuring the FXO at SO4R all this week with an hour race this Thursday evening (UK time). Come try out the combo with the idea of improving on the tire temperature problem - and having some good clean fun races. When I started with the combo I could only get 3 laps out of the tires - now I can do 10 good laps with the same set.

Quote from Bose321 :

Oh the irony...

+1000

Hey obsolum - ya got that right mate - thanks

Like Wilko868, the forum keeps requiring the password every time I return (even though I have the remember me ticked) .....even required password again for this post although I had already logged in.

This just started with this recent flurry of issues. I have changed my password at lfs.net and still it forgets me.

@ Forbin - Well, at least it won't be coming home in the morning with huge, festering wounds and just sleep all day

Last edited by easyed, Tue, 6 Oct 2009 23:20. Reason : @ added

I can prolly make some evening races - sounds fun

Enlighten a noob - what are the CTRA restrictions for the GT2 cars??

It is pointless to tell people what is pointless to them

Interesting feedback about the 8800GT guys

My EVGA 8800GT ran for about 2 1/2 years before dying .... and the last 5 months it was folding@home 24/7, often while playing LFS or watching TV (with tuner card) or vids. It got a pretty heavy workout and almost no rest .... so I have no real complaints about it

My problem solved with a BFG GTX 275 OC 896 MB

Yeah reckon so - but for now I've "stolen" an ATI 4850 from my son's broken PC and it out-performs my old 8800GT ........ so for now I'm happy but I need to get his PC running .... wonder how long I can stall

Thinking of getting some version of the GeForce GTX 260 ...... soon

Hey GT_Nige, I also got started racing with Gran T (started with GT1 and played thru GT4), but I got really tired of the delays and false promises about getting online racing. After almost 8 years, it had gotten old doing hotlaps and posting times at forum "races" (and the whole issue of "trust" that required)........

Point is, LFS really does what GT will never do well ...... provide real head-to-head competition in real online races........ everything from pickup races to the big league races. And you can race drivers from all over the world - unlike GT which seemed want to divide the world into thirds

So when ya feel comfortable with the game be sure to checkout the online racing - that's where it's at

And don't worry about the laggy performance with a full AI grid - performance is much much much better with a full grid of humans (doesn't have to do calculations for allll those AIs). Besides racing the AI is nothing like racing people

Hey Moose - didn't see your post - I will certainly dismantle, clean, and repaste the heat sink/fan ..... will get to it tonight and if that doesn't work, guess I'll go for a new card soon. Thanks for the suggestion - hope it works as well for me

hazaky - I've read that my temps (before this prob) were well within those expected from the 8800GT (as Bose321 says) - but these new numbers are just hard to make sense of ..... I get the cycle display of 192->128->64->41 even when rebooting after the pc has been off for a few hours.

shiny_red_cobra - just substituted an ATI 4850 from my sons PC and it is running fine at 56 C and 25% fan speed - just using generic driver.

lukelfs - oh, I guess the 2nd gpu temp is for a second card .... that I don't have

george_tsiros - cool man

Thanks for the suggestions .....

Here's a screenshot of GPU-Z ..... the first of the GPU temps showing 128 alternates between 128 and 0 about once/second most of the time but not all the time. Curious that the 2nd GPU temp is -63.5 C. I set the fan speed to be 100% all the time with RivaTuner.

I do have another card to try but will have to wait until later today.

I've been running my current system for about 2 years w/o problems. But for the last couple of days ago, with no system changes, my GPU seems to be failing ......

With heavy loads, my 8800 GT would run between 75-85 C (from what I read that's warm but not too hot). I was monitoring temps with PC Wizard but now also use RivaTuner.

First, I noticed that PC Wizard started to show an odd gpu temp display - it would cycle thru several temps and an odd entry : 182 C -> 118 C -> 64 C -> 4.293842 + 9C -> repeat.

Then the card apparently started to fail under load -> screen would go black but PC not shut down - just not working. Reboot would do fine - but with same temp display. After a couple days of that, and changing the card to the other PCIe slot, I now get a 4 temp display cycle: 192 C ->128 C -> 64 C -> 41 C and no odd non-temp reading. Card will now sometimes fails when just browsing. Of note, even when the pc has been off all night, when I first boot I get that last temp display cycle immediately after boot !!! Card couldn't be that warm that quickly!

So I'm not entirely sure that it's the card, but what else could it be??

I'm running Vista 32 bit on 1 c2d E6850 @ 3.0 (usually ocd @ 3.6)

Any ideas, suggestions?

Thanks

Quote from Victor :

So we can only ask for patience and understanding. Both from those who think it takes too long and from those that are annoyed by those who think it takes too long.
For us it's unfortunate to see both. But to be honest I'm not sure what we can do to make everyone happy. Maybe this post can bring some understanding again at least. And you can rest assured LFS will still be around for a while, constantly being further developed.

I think that about says it all. I'm as eager as anyone to see both improvements to and an expansion of LFS, but in the meantime I'm having a ton of fun doing what LFS was designed for and accomplishes so well ...... racing online. Already there are so many combos and servers that I don't think I'll ever be bored with LFS just as it is .... as long as I can find good races with nice folks.

Good post Funnybear - hope folks plow through it and get the point

a note of caution here guys ......

I have bought 3 pcs from the US arm of cyberpower and am not very satisfied:

My current system from them is about 2 years old: Asus 5PN-D with E6850 3.0 GHz (oc'd @ 3.6 GHz), Coolermaster liquid cooled cpu, 8800GT, 3 GB ram, Raid 0 250 GB HDs, with TV tuner, wireless g adapter.

System works great now - can calc superpi mod to 1 million digits in 14.7 sec.

But when I received it, every card had been jarred out of their slots even the ram chips. Adapters with clips were even out of slots. Could be shipping but hard to see how. Then I had to be on the phone with them several times to get the system to recognize various components - USB, tuner etc. The CoolerMaster cooler was not properly filled with coolant. I ended up disassembling the entire cooler emptying and refilling with fresh coolant.

Also beware of parts selections - much of their less expensive setups are with discontinued parts (CoolerMaster liquid cpu cooler) or no-name generics (ram).

A few months ago, I gave them another chance and got 2 pcs for my sons. One eventually worked fine - after reinstalling half the hardware, but the other still does not work after replacing mobo and psu. I made the mistake of ordering both a wireless adapter card and IEEE card for the 2 PCI slots, but only 1 would fit because of the graphics card. So they sent a USB wireless stick instead - without consulting me.

You might have better luck than me, just be cautious selecting your components. At the US site anyway, they have many many options to select from but most are older, outdated, or no-name components. You can get newer brand name components but then the cost becomes closer to the big name pc companies.

Remember, you get what ya pay for ..... and be careful what ya ask for.