Quote from Yiots :

I've given up and joined the ban wagon of obnoxious users who just shout, "shut up and live with it or piss off".

Too bad, that's a childish attitude. Sadly some of those who were not happy with the upgrade also developed an equally childish attitude.

OTOH, I believe that the community, and the developers, grow when everybody is able to draw clear arguments with their opinions.

Shouting is for the brainless.

Quote from AeroMechanical :

If you're after unrelenting realism in every aspect of racing. You really ought be playing NetkarPro... it has a hardcore mode where you have to wait while your car is towed back to the pits, you have to wait while your mechanics repair damage, you have to wait while your mechanics implement your setup changes.

Yes, that is realistic, but I think it's taking things a little too far personally. Some people swear by it though, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic sim, but as far as I'm concerned the only thing that really matters is the physical modeling of the car and the handling dynamics. Because it's simulated, we have advantages over the real world like not having to wait for all that stuff. I think that's a good thing.

You give a little, you take a little. Consult your doctor, use as directed, opinions may vary.

Love,
Aero

Thanks, good post. I believe that, in the end, its all matter of personal preferences, and thats ok!!! But I confess that I get pissed of when some people start to insult anyone who does not think EXACTLY as they do. What can I do... I'm against "fanboyism"

I will have to look at that game, if the physics are as good as in here I might find it appealing.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

You will be dissapointed with every single new patch the devs release for LFS. The game will be going further and further away from what you want. You can complain and call us fanboys as much as you want, but at the end of the day its your own fault that you bought LFS thinking it was something it is not. I think your problem is that you realise this now, and your unhappy that you spent £24 on S2.

Thank you for a well reasoned post. I'm sure you didn't read one of my posts in which I say that I LOVE this game. It is the best I have found so far.

That said, I'm not married to it, nor is easy for me to become a fan (of anything man made, but that's beyond the reach of this thread). I like to ask for things the way I like them, and I like to argue with others about it.

In resume, I do love LFS but that doesn't mean I should like every bit of it nor that I should applaud blindly everything that the developers do with it.

Quote from JTbo :

I see you are still taking LFS as finished product and not accepting fact that it is Alpha that is not finished but still under development, I think you really should sit back and take a look from another viewpoint

The thing is that Shift+P could be avoided right now, so the fact that it is still there shows that, as much as anyone wants to believe it, there factors other than reality behind its design.

Quote from xaotik :

That is irrelevant to the physics simulation though, no?

So, real objects can vanish leaving a void that it is instantly feed it with other particles like atmosphere. You must live in another dimension. None of the known physical laws of this universe would allow such a thing.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

...because its just a game, its about enjoyment,

So... finally, the voice of reason. You are not as dumb as others have made you believe. Yes, it is a game, and its all about enjoyment. Thanks.

Quote from mattlikespeoples :

Ok, i've done some research and personally contacted the devs myself. Shift+P is perfectly realistic and simulated almost completely accurate except for the lack of visual cues...

:huepfenic

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

I decided to see if you would read this post, since you ignored everyone else explaining the difference between user interfaces and physics simulation.

I'm astonished with your intelligence level, having to resort to childish tactics as changing my words. Now, I'm willing to believe that you capable to discuss at a rational level.

Read slowly. 10 pilots start a race. Their cars engines, tires, weight and other factors are simulated, acceleration, inertia and other forces are taken in to account to generate a positive experience for everyone.

At some point the leader looses its car and crash, its now in the center of the track and other pilots are coming fast.

QUESTION:

IF this is a simulation, and so much care has taken in order to have a proper depiction of some of the variables involved... how come the crashed car can "disappear" from the track?

I want to think that you believe your own "itss a simuulaaatiooon duuudeeee" and also that you are perfectly capable of understanding that a car disappearing its not a realistic depiction of this reality.

And we are talking about THE SIMULATION, forget about the interface. My guess? it is ok with you because you are a fanboy.

Quote from Woz :

Is it just me or do most of the moaning/bitching come in the forms of

I posted yesterday my conclusion, but couldn't miss this one. Nope, it is not just you, is everyone who has bought that idea about LFS being a simulator. Fortunately, some of us (and please do not include me in ANY particular group) can think for ourselves and have our own idea about what LFS is.

Physics simulation is just "good" when you compare it to other sim games, and thats about it. On the other hand, it is FULL of unrealistic characteristics, some of them so lame that they should not belong to it (IF we are talking about LFS B E I N G A S I M U L A T O R).

You could read the thread in more detail if you were interested, to read ARGUMENTS, not bitching (btw, you are the one bitching here, but Im leaving that aside in my comment).

In any case, it would be good to see more developers behind LFS, and having the possibility of getting A FULL SIMULATION anytime soon.

Granted, I don't know about them, nor I understand why it has been in alpha stage for several long years.

Now, don't make a mistake. I love LFS and I like what has been done so far, but it is 1) not perfect BY FAR and 2) not as real as some of you appear to be deluded in to believe.

And just in case you can't be bothered to read some good arguments that are in here, I will tell you two things that you all should (I mean the ones who has bought the "itss a siimulaaatiooonn dduuuudeee") "bitch" about, to use one term that apparently you like.

a) What about Shift+P, how can that have its place IN A SIMULATION?

b) What about custom views? I guess thats REAL and should be included in any simulation. Right?

_____
EDIT:

BTW, LFS its a GAME.

Last edited by Bodhidharmazen, Sun 23 Dec 2007, 23:29.

Quote from mattlikespeoples :

while I understand this is my weakest point in the argument I will try my best.

Thank you matt, I don't agree with our argument but you are a gentleman.


TO ALL:

Thank you all for your participation/discussion in this thread. I'm happy with the results and have enjoyed even the heated moments.

Thanks and good night.

Quote from lizardfolk :

It's a work in progress and also, a few "unrealistic" things have to be overlooked for the convenience of the players.

Interesting.. some of them yes and some of them no. And I'm free to accept them and to shout my mouth. No. Its a work in progress, granted, the only game that has taken longer time to develop is (TMK) Duke Nukem Forever, but here at least we can try (wait, we even have to pay) for an alpha version.

Quote from lizardfolk :

But just because there's a few elements of unrealism (that IMO doesn't even matter) doesn't mean we should scrap everything that we already have that are realistic and turn it into another mediocre arcade racer.

Exactly in your opinion (and most forum members for that matter). IMO there are things that require at least the same attention and NO ONE complain about them...

Quote from lizardfolk :

I dont like the polarized extremes of your opinion of whether we should make it completely realistic or not realistic at all.

LOL! I have NEVER said anything about I want it to be not realistic at all!!! I WANT A SIMULATION, but also the option to turn off some characteristics (like for example clutch damage when I don't have a controller with clutch.

Quote from lizardfolk :

It is impossible to make something completely realistic, but that is by no means an excuse to not incorporate as much realism as possible

Then you are contradicting yourself. Why custom views? Why Shift+P? Why (etc etc etc)?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

The same reason you didn't spend £50 million just to get your BMW Sauber back on track after you crashed it.

You will have to use either more words, or another example. What are you saying here?

Quote from srdsprinter :

But the two polls I've seen show 12% and 8% actually dissappointed/struggling with the changes.

There you go. And FYI, Im not "struggling" with the new patch, in fact, I have tested it again today and its not as bad as I thought in my first 5 minutes with it... that said, yes. Im disappointed by it. And I like to express my disappointment.

Quote from mattlikespeoples :

some servers have forced cockpit view. Shift P is necesary. Cant efficiently run servers if everyone is forced to have to drive back to pits. what about the people that might have crashed and flipped?

Thats realism. Thats what people use as an argument against criticism like mine. Thats why I made OBVIOUS that their argument is not really an argument, but a mantra that they have learned to repeat and put against any one daring to question things.

What does server efficiency have to do with Shift+P, care to explain it?

Quote from lizardfolk :

We keep giving a counter to that argument but you refuse to listen

Sorry about that. What is the argument to support something like Shift+P as part of a simulation?

Quote from srdsprinter :

The only motivation I have to stay here is so the dev's don't here only this negative moaning, as the true LFS base is out there loving LFS racing online.

Thats nice of you, but IMO, they get A LOT more of "congrats" and "thanks" and "u roxx" than honest criticism. I get your point though, and you are right, my comments should be more constructive. Thanks for the heads up.

Quote from lizardfolk :

This game is a simulation. Which means that the devs are trying to make this game AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE.

Quote from mattlikespeoples :

Live for Speed is aiming to simulate realistically as many aspects of racing/driving (or drifting and cruising if that fancies you) as possible.

Right, thats the mantra some people have learned and repeat over and over. I will also repeat my words: What about custom views, what about Shift+P, what about the lousy physics when you crash? what about a proper damage model?

Some of you react when somebody like me dares to question things, but I have not seen a lot of complains for something as (excuse me) lame as a Shift+P... in a S I M U L A T O R.

Quote from srdsprinter :

So what do you realistically want to happen???

Exactly what is happening. People talking about it, discussing it. That we, the community of LFS, grow as a group. In the end is a personal decision. Do I like the game as it is now? Do I like where is going? Do I blindly support the developers or do I want them to listen to their customers?

Such kind of questions lie all around, of course, not only in this thread, and that keeps us motivated and enjoying/demanding a better game.

Quote from MyBoss :

Thats like asking valve to make one noob version and one hardcore version of Counter Strike. Not going to happen.

And going to a final release seems equally difficult.

Quote from ajp71 :

The arcade cleansing begins

Call me when shift+p, custom views and other things are taken out.. those are a no no for sims.

Quote from JJ72 :

You CAN express your opinion, but LFS has never been a democracy...

... Getting back to the argument itself I still can't see why categorizing such preferences will improve the experience over the current model.

Both points taken, you are right, its not a democracy, and yes, Im only venting MY opinion. But who knows, maybe the developers take, from time to time, ideas from their users, because several heads think better than one.

Quote from JJ72 :

You do realize your definition of what is the right amount of realism is just your individual opinion?

Now, thats a good point, thanks for bring in it. Do you realize that EVERYONE'S definition of the right amount of "realism"... its THEIR INDIVIDUAL OPINION??? Yep, including Scawen.

Quote from ajp71 :

I'm currently quite happy with sitting back and letting Scawen decide where to go seeing as he's delivering exactly what it said on the tin. You however are going to have to do some serious moaning if you want an arcade mode

I know, and all the problem here is the word "arcade". Big mistake from my part knowing I'm in a hard core community of fans.

That said, my arguments are the important thing, forget about how you call it. "Strict Simulation" for those who have wheel with three pedals and a stick, "Mode 2" for those of us who don't have a way to give the REALISTIC INPUT a clutch needs.. and so on.

The STRICT SIMULATION mode should not include shift+p and other things that are simply wrong in current incarnation.


... I just tried the patch a bit more and can't help but noticing something... what happened to the digital speedo???? GUESS ITS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR A REALISTIC SIMULAAATOOOR!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from Burnzoire :

for crying out loud. The transmission modelling has been upgraded, you now need to lift off the throttle when you shift. I don't know why people go to the forums and bitch and moan before they think of simply asking someone why they can't shift properly. Use some common sense.

Yes. You can't accelerate a real car without taking your foot from the accelerator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Wait..



You can.
____________________
Edit:

I add my thread to the discussion:

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=35688

Last edited by Bodhidharmazen, Sun 23 Dec 2007, 02:08.

Quote from bbman :

I didn't say anything about the car vanishing with pressing the button, did I? Because I'd love for it to stay in the way for some time

Well, of course, thats the whole point of a hard core simulation. But in its current incarnation LFS has some good, well executed aspects, and some others that are a shame, like Shift+P, Custom Views, car deformation physics, damage model, graphics (real time lights and shadows, textures, bump mapping, etc) and more.

So, my argument goes this way (for all the "iiits aa simuullaatioonn duudddeeee") go cry about the realism elsewhere, if you are REALLY that interested in getting out a simulator from LFS ASK FOR IT! DEMAND IT, and stop applauding blindly everything that its going on.

If you don't drive with a proper control, YOU ARE NOT PLAYING A SIMULATION, and the clutch is USELESS (in simulation terms) if you DONT HAVE ONE.

Now, for the ones who actually read arguments and doesn't resort to cheap insults everytime someone questions some of the changes in this new version... argumented points of view are welcomed.

Quote from axus :

Yeah, if you don't like realism, you're probably better off spending your money on something else: GT5 or Forza 2 or something to that effect that has realisticish handling but without the rawness of a sim.

Read my previous post. You DONT LIKE REALISM, because you have a very selective (biased) point of view regarding which features you like (because they are realist) and which you dont (because you dont want to see them).

Quote from bbman :

I'd like to have it just shrunken down to one option while racing: abandon race (which is equivalent to spectate)... What you do from there is up to you...

Hmm. No. Not real at all. If something goes wrong (you crash, clutch is burned, a tyre explodes... your car should remain exactly where it should be. ITS A SIMULATION REMEMBER?

What it should be done its that at some point your car is taken out of the track slowly, and from there you should walk to the pits in order to be able to be a spectator, or get out of the SIMULATION.

If you get out of the SIMULATION without walking to pits then you should loose the hability to search servers and etc. Punishment for anyone who do not think that LFS ITS A S I M U L A T I O N