Quote from Zachary Zoomy :

cool videos. is it posible to get a relpay so I can view it ingame myself?

u can!

www.lfsbr.com

but... register needed

mouse here...

Quote from lalathegreat :

And this is why i said limit maximum amount of Fuel it can take on board. What this should do is increase the amount of times the car would have to pit.

and this is the WROST way to "balance" the cars...

simplicity... just make the others 2 faster or the FZR slower...

Quote from lalathegreat :

U guys are acting like babies. What is the point of having the cars if they same are all very similar. seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame
it on the car being faster.

It seems to me you guys arent taking advantage of the specific advantages of each car. Only reason i say this is because, i never see any talk on setups on boards. Seems everyone just goes and downloads what they think is a fast setup.

instead of asking the devs to make u faster how about u learn to improve setups.

man, if u cant read what we said, just dont post

you are completely wrong when says: "seems to me that as soon u loose a race u blame it on the car being faster."

bla bla bla

Quote from Hoellsen :

col: you are suggesting no changes before S3. And S3 might very well be 3-4 years away. Not changing anything would be a big put off for new and existing customers and thus be a bad marketing choice.

and YES, i agree with this

so, we will only can race classes fairly when S3 is done?

mistake... i dont wanna wait for maybe in 3 years, race classes without much problems, im racing NOW and wanna race NOW w/o problems, not in 3 years

Quote from col :

Something else I noticed is that the FZR is by FAR the most popular of the gtr cars* - so the lap times are swayed even more in its favour, and even with this extra advantage, the average wr times (averaged over different tracks) seem to be only about 1 second faster than e.g. XRR. IMO you wouldn't need much more than 50 - 75 kg and a heap of practice to make things a LOT more balanced. It may not be perfect, but it will be a huge improvement

*I noticed that for example on the configs you have driven online you have somthing like 10 times as many laps on FZR as on XRR or FXR - not surprising that you find FZR to be such an advantage

Yes col, i know you and i think u know me(LSR Carlos, driving FZ50 at BLGP, with rac and lx6 enabled), and with that u can find that i like the FZ50, and i like the FZR. I dont choose FZR just coz i find it faster than others, i drive FZR coz i like to drive, as the XRT. I think that this dont need to be considered(what car i drive) coz dont influence my opinion... maybe if my logs shows: "he drives FXR", ill be mad if u point this and say that im defending the FXR coz i like it... its not my point here... hehe... and i think its not your point too

I get your point, maybe ballast = the first option for the devs, can be implemented faster and easier, but again, i think that ballast is not the first option to solve the problem, we need a better start to balance with ballast, but if the devs implement only ballast, wat we can do... ill just get mad again, lol...

i think there is no problem in reduce the tiresize a bit of the FZ, reduce the turbo lag and add a bit of power to the others 2, and then add the ballast option

same to the TBO class, adding 5~10hp to the RB4; adding like 50kg for FXO and reducing a bit of his tiresize will not **** up the balancing, then, just add ballasts...

i think that was a misunderstud, sorry, my english is poor

dunno if i said what i wanna say

bleh

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I don't think it's a good idea to balance the RWDs with the AWD. If you mean just closeER then I guess that's OK, but I don't think that the FXR should be able to turn the same lap times as the RWD cars.

sure, im asking for CLOSER performances

if u ask me, if FXR must be as competitive as FZR i would say YES if was a real race, coz the racers "cant" choose the cars like on LFS... if u ask me if i think that devs need to do this i would say NO, the FXR needs to be a bit slower than XRR and FZR, but not 3s+ like now, maybe average 0.3~0.5s slower

if FXR get closer to FZR, some tracks the FXR will be faster, for sure, but this is not a problem, diferent cars = diferent performances in diferent tracks, that would happens...

no comments about the TBO class... lol... thats a joke...

Quote from col :

Are you serious? of course there is. Why do you think Scawen doesn't release small incremental updates to the Physics but instead keeps all tweaks and updates back for major releases ?

Apart from the multitude of users who enjoy hotlapping and competing on the many LFSWorld charts, there is the issue of invalidating all the available replays and setups - these are a valuable resource for anyone learning an unfamiliar car/track combo.

ok col, i agree, there are people that like to compete on lfsw charts and etc

but reset the hotlaps = minor problem in comparison with the unbalancing

and if the cars get balanced from the start is better...

ballast = fine tuning, not for great changes

if we reduce everything to ballast, the FZR will carry like 100~150kg of ballast, the XRR will carry 50~70kg...

u dont think that 50kg will balance FZR with FXR, think?

ballast = good option, even if the cars get + balanced, but we need at least a good start...

if we reduce fzr tire size and give more power to XRR, we will get a better balancing... there are many ways to reduce the cornering speed or the acceleration or anything, i think the point isnt how to do this...

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Thu, 25 May 2006 17:06.

waste time even out?

coz we are racing now ?

and really cue-ball, u must be kidding

obvious we will never get "perfect-even-out", but still obvious that FXR dont compete with FZR, or XRR with FZR, on 99% of the tracks

so

wats the missing point to speed up the others two? the point is "its impossible even out" like ur saying? haha

Quote from Christian Seidel :

OK Cue-Ball...

Obviously I wasn't 100% exact in my posting - or maybe you were just trying to read something out of it to prove your own point.

The different cars in ETCC were by no means completely equally competetive on every track (and I didn't say that). For example Monza was absolute Alfa-country, mainly because of their power advantage and the few corners that don't wear tyres as fast as many corners. But even there the difference between Alfa and BMW was not over 1 second (IIRC). But the difference at Monza was the worst of all and this is why racing was still very close most (not all) of the time even with one car having a slight advantage.

And if you say this was achieved by weight penalties (which is correct to some degree) then I don't see a reason why this can't be done in LFS. If the FZR outperforms the other GTRs under every circumstance than why not just make its power per weight worse? Or make it better on the other cars? Changing the mass of some cars doesn't seem to be some kind of mission impossible for the devs to me. Changing the power output is the same.

Surely this would be an update that has to reset the hotlaps and stuff. And if the devs overdid it and made the FZR too slow to have any chance at all on any track, well just make another update and reduce it a little. I don't see a problem here. Once you start such a process you will very quickly get an idea how much you must change to achieve the wanted effect.

Of course some people will always complain that their favourite car is not the fastest on their favourite track and at some point the devs need to stop the process of evening out. Otherwise it would become a neverending story. So just make a poll like this one to see what the majority thinks and the devs can see if the situation has improved. And at some point (for example when clearly more than 50% think the classes are evened out enough) they stop it.

I just don't get it why you think this is near impossible? This is just a sim in which everything can be changed to whatever the developer wants it to be. Just add some weight to the FZR and it will be slower in corners and on the straight and it will also wear its tyres faster. Very difficult, huh...??

And what you also don't seem to understand is the reason for this effort. It's just that a race with different cars that have different characteristics is way more interesting - not only to watch but also to race. Most people agree on this point - just live with it. You're quite alone here if you find multi-car-races not a big lot more interesting than single-car-races.

thats perfect...

its exactly what i think, and im sorry i didnt post like this before, i wasnt clear, coz my english sux too much

sure that we dont spect perfect equalization in all tracks...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

If one car in each class is so dominant, then why does anyone bother with the other cars in the class? Just because they look pretty? Is it purely to drive something different? It makes no sense. If Ford suddenly had a completely dominant car all the guys driving Holdens wouldn't whine about it, they'd switch!

The idea of making the cars all equal should be given up on. Make the cars have their own specialties. The AWD cars can be good for rally and wet tarmac (assuming it comes along). The RWD, rear engine car can be the fastest out of the corners, but with the most fuel usage and tire usage. The RWD, front engine car can be easier on fuel and tires, but not accellerate quite as fast (less torque). This would make the RWD, rear engine attractive for shorter sprints and tight tracks, the RWD front engine better for long races where tires can be a factor, and the AWD car better for poor road conditions. Not only will this put to rest the whole "equalizing cars" stuff, but it would actually give a good reason for driving each of the different cars. Instead of everyone picking their favorite car and driving it in every single race, people would be better served to pick the appropriate car for the venue and race length. Or, even better, how about some new tracks that would really highlight the differences in the cars. Given the proper track the "slower" cars could really come into their own. Give us a hill climb track (think Pike's Peak) where the AWD cars can really shine.

coz its not the point of classes, there are no wet track and no pikes peak

we dont need diferent cars when the tracks are not balanced for these diferent cars, if we dont had tracks to balance the cars, just edit the cars, each car will mantain your caracter, but equalized for the tracks that we had now

ur say like that:

"give 700hp to FZR then we had the ultra fast FZR, and wow, why we should give more power for the others two? just race with FZR and forget the others 2... right? maybe on wet tracks the FXR will beat FZR, but oh, we dont had wet tracks"

even if we had rally tires for GTRs, u can see the same result for TBO class, where NOONE races rally + tarmac tracks on the same champ, coz they are to diferents and dont atract the same people... there are people that race rally and people that race on tarmac, then the rally races are only with RB4... duh

edit: Now we had 100 people asking for even classes against 35 to mantain... why these 100 need to stop asking for even classes?

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Tue, 23 May 2006 23:46.

just to certificate:

92 votes for EVEN out classes

65%

Quote from Hoellsen :

There's a bit more to look at, imho. Take cornering speeds in general: the FZR is about 5kph faster in the turns in AS North. This might be because it can run more downforce or maybe also due to things like trackwidth, wheelbase, tiresize and most importantly centre of gravity.

Weight and power aren't the only things to look at.

yes

you are right

if we just reduce the turbo lag, there still a turbo lag, and the FZR is really a bit faster on cornering...

[]'s

Quote from Gener_AL (UK) :

But i do miss silly RWD drivers trying to overtake this machine of elegance so if you are reading Mr Roberts please can you slow down my car a touch, nothing drastic just a reduction of power, (maybe just reset FXO hotlaps not entire data) im sure the community would appreciate this greatly if it were possible without having to reset hotlaps entirely, or alternatively just segregate the 2 offenders (FXO/FZR) from having ability to upload hotlaps , and maybe spend a a few weeks testing different balancing of the vehicles. i really not sure whats for best , maybe adjust class for TBO so its just TB and a new class O4 or all together (TBO4) and just tweak FZR.

??? i dunno its tricky topic for sure

i would say that reduce the power for FXO isnt the best option

i think its better reduce the tire or increase the weight

coz?

if u reduce the power, the diference in final speed will be too much, and its better if the diferences became smaller, the cornering speed be more even... u can mantain the FXO the king of the cornering, but not as fast as today... then there will be more tracks with the class + even... reduce the power = hard to even out

i think for RB4 yes, its needed a bit of horsepower, like 5~10cv

for GTR class the turbo lag for both(FXR and XRR), and the lack of power of FXR are too much(FXR has 78% of eff, XRR and FZR has 87%...). If u reduce the turbo lag and add a bit of power for FXR u will get a evened class..

[]'s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle

when the car is cornering, the car rolls a bit and the negative camber is needed to get + contact to the tarmac on the tire with + load

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Sun, 21 May 2006 22:51.

Quote from micha1980de :

erm, but don't the cars have "considerable" pros and cons?
At least they did until "patchday"
right?

nope and nope

Quote from Chaos :

err did you miss the balancing of GTi vs GT or what?

no, but this is not enough. And I was talking about the TBO class

the TBO was fair sometime? And the GTR class?

im really pissed out with guys that say: "ahh, there is no problem, class fairly even"

oh really? they need to race with RB4 and FXR forever against FXO and FZR with this balancing

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Sun, 21 May 2006 21:16.

my point?

"I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks."

no, its NOT quite balanced, and dont need "few little tweaks", needs a LOT of TWEAKS

and again, sure, if u race against poor drivers u can win, but like i said, its IMPOSSIBLE to win against proper drivers on a champ

we dont need this PROBLEM that NEVER get corrected by the devs, discussed several times and they never say nothing and etc, and yes, im mad with this idiot situation

really, im sorry if was too agressive with u

Quote from Matrixi :

Of course they're not entirely balanced. My point being was that there is a situation for each car where it will do better than the other. I've had wonderful races in FZR against XRR drivers, then again I'm not the fastest driver there is with the GTR:s

FXR is easy to drive (tho I hate it), therefore people new to the GTR class should try it before going spinning in T1 causing pileups with the XRR (or FZR). Fonnybone said very well that cars should be more balanced, but being better than eachother at different things. Currently the XRT and the RB4 beat the FXO hands down at acceleration, but the FXO beats the XRT at braking and cornering speed.

I think the game is quite balanced, just needs a few little tweaks.

haha!

man, ur kidding? u dont know the tbo class? u already run these cars? looks like u never drive this class

FXO is a LOT faster on 90% of the tracks, the others 10% is just faster. Really, u are crazy

there are tracks that FXO is like 3s faster... and ye, it works for endu..

again, the TBO class on a champ if u wanna win, u MUST choose FXO, except if the league, like bra, arg or french league, adds a passanger on the FXO, and with this u had a chance

w/o passanger, a BAD racer can beat BY FAR a GREAT pilot with XRT or RB4! And there are no questions about this, its just the true

if u look on WR charts u will see: FXO WR = faster on ALL TRACKS

Quote from Matrixi :

The differences in the GTR class have been discussed in this forum several times. Each car has their own good and bad points. XRR has the best fuel economy and pretty good stability (best for long races), FZR has the best corner exit acceleration (but the worst fuel economy) and FXR is the easiest of the bunch due to the stability the 4wd brings.

if u look results of 24h kyoto u cant say that the GTR class = balanced

now, the br league will start a GTR champ, if u say to me: "take FXR, its easy to drive, u can win", ill laugh

even with the XRR, if u will race against good pilots, its just IMPOSSIBLE race with the XRR and try to win

the same goes to tbo class

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Sun, 21 May 2006 19:37.

XR GT Turbo and FZ50

Quote from Hoellsen :

Might be that way in the odd public race. In real competition, it doesn't stand a chance.

true

Quote from Cue-Ball :

It seems like everyone wants to even out the classes purely to have different looking cars on the track. What's the point of having multiple cars if they're all the same in the end?

duh... coz is better for OUR RACES?!

thisnameistaken already said, they arent the SAME!

Some people like to drive the FXO, some people like to drive the XRT and some people like to drive the RB4! On our league we was close to just delete the FXO from the champ, but to dont mess up with the drivers who like to drive the FXO, we just added the passenger...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

The cars will NEVER be even on all tracks under all circumstances. Attempting to make them so is a fools errand. I agree with you, that having cars nobody drives is foolish. Frankly, instead of trying to make the cars all run even, i'd rather see each car with it's own specialty. Instead of making the XR GTR and the FZ GTR run with the FXO GTR, make the FXO more of a rally car, the FZ more of a sprint car (quick on short races, but hard on tires), and the XR more of an endurance car (easier on tires and fuel, but not as fast). Then, pick the right tool for the job.

We dont need the cars perfectly even on all tracks, but:

the FXO gtr dun race rally, gets owned on almost all tracks by other 2 cars

the XRR loose on sprint and long races

FZR is a lot faster on sprint and its faster on long races

whats the point????

OMG, its too hard to see?

Last edited by Carlos H Wrobel, Fri, 5 May 2006 18:22.

Yes, please! Still obvious the huge FZR advantage against the XRR, and the advantage of XRR against the FXR! we don't need this! we need fair classes!!

just look the 24h kyoto results and make your conclusions if anyone still needs!

Still obvious the huge advantage for FXO on TBO class against XRT and RB4, and the RB4 still a bit slower than XRT! We on BRA league will use again a passenger to make the FXO fair, why dont u add the weight for us?

please!!!