i don't get why it would be unrealistic if the fxo was as heavy as the xrt.

Does the FXO still have the widest tyres of all tbo-cars? If so, you've got something to balance.

Vain

This is one of the problems with "fake" cars, if the cars were all real-life cars then there would be no leg to stand on for balancing

Dan,

they could very easily be 'production class' parity modified cars. having parity amongst a purly racing (ie, not building and racing) class makes sense from every perspective...

The thread launched on GTR classes, and somehow got moved to TBO and/or elsewhere.
[EDIT] Missed TBO in the title. Sorry! [EDIT2] I think I applied sunblock to my brain instead of my skin.. TBO it is.. I don't drive that class.. so GTR....[/Edits]

To the OP: I was racing GTRs last night and observing differences in a limited way.

Before the patch, I was always driving the FXR because, if all else failed, I could hope the FZR in front's tires wouldn't hold out to the end of the race. That made them more "catchable" because in the 7th or 8th lap on Aston Historic, they'd turn into shopping carts. This would happen almost always, except where the FZR driver was exceptionally skilled and could drive fast without frying tires. In THOSE circumstances, I always felt that he DESERVED to beat me (by making the tires survive, he achieved something I couldn't).

I'm afraid to say that on patch U I'm now an FZR driver, and no longer even look at the FXR. I think as more people realise they can make the FZR survive on one set of tires, they'll move over too. I'm now 2 seconds per lap faster in the FZR than I am in the FXR, instead of pre-patch being 3 seconds faster in the FXR than in the FZR (tire watching).. a net shift of 5 seconds to the FZR's benefit.

It would be NICE to see the FZR and FXR evenly matched.. the way you drive each is different, which makes for good viewing when they're head-to-head. With the exception of South City Long, I think the FZR definitely has the advantage. On SO Long, tho, the FXR is still king IMO.

Weight adding is not always the solution IMHO, add some weight in your lx4 tank it the car handles alot better... weight distribution allong the car body has a great effect on handeling.. thus just simply adding weight could actually make a car easyer to control and faster trough and out of turns..

I'm not sure what needs to be done to the TBO class for the cars to be similar on the long run. (balancing is not just a WR/1 lap thing IMHO, but tire/fuel usage should also be taken in to account, the GTR class and endu leagues clearly show this).

maby the fxo needs a little more tirewear, it still a ff so fronttires are over used. so brake and cornering and speeding up should hurt the tires more.

i believe in touringcar championships ff cars could be something like 50 kilogram lighter for there inferior drivetrain.

its in the Super 2000 Technical Regulations of the btcc

Front-wheel drive cars must weigh a minimum of 1110kg, rear-wheel drive car a minimum of 1140kg

I'd say bring the tyre grip back on par with the other TBOs and shift the weight bias forwards with the FXO and for the FZR...it's got MORE torque than the turbo cars! Bring that back to par and maybe make it a good bit peakier. An engine that revs to 9000rpm should be a bit piggish down low, even with VVT

I think that the whole idea of evening out the classes needs to be given up on. The only way they'll ever be even is if every car is exactly the same (other than looks). If you think that such-and-such car is a ringer, and the other cars don't stand a chance....don't drive those other cars! Nobody is forcing you to drive them. So, in the end, the only reason to want the classes to be even is because you like the car that's slower. Either learn to like the faster car, or accept the fact that the car you like is a bit slower, but easier to drive.

I'd rather see LFS add race ballast. That way the racing will be fair no matter what cars are being driven.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

The "don't drive the slower cars" argument is a bit silly. What's the point in having cars that nobody drives?

It seems like everyone wants to even out the classes purely to have different looking cars on the track. What's the point of having multiple cars if they're all the same in the end?

The cars will NEVER be even on all tracks under all circumstances. Attempting to make them so is a fools errand. I agree with you, that having cars nobody drives is foolish. Frankly, instead of trying to make the cars all run even, i'd rather see each car with it's own specialty. Instead of making the XR GTR and the FZ GTR run with the FXO GTR, make the FXO more of a rally car, the FZ more of a sprint car (quick on short races, but hard on tires), and the XR more of an endurance car (easier on tires and fuel, but not as fast). Then, pick the right tool for the job.

If the devs are going to spend time and resources making different cars, then make them DIFFERENT. I'd much rather see 15 cars, all of different classes, than 30 cars that all run exactly even.

Ballast.
Server side ballast would allow case-by-case track/car combination balancing.
Servers with badly set ballast would get no traffic.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I think that the whole idea of evening out the classes needs to be given up on. The only way they'll ever be even is if every car is exactly the same (other than looks). If you think that such-and-such car is a ringer, and the other cars don't stand a chance....don't drive those other cars! Nobody is forcing you to drive them. So, in the end, the only reason to want the classes to be even is because you like the car that's slower. Either learn to like the faster car, or accept the fact that the car you like is a bit slower, but easier to drive.

I'd rather see LFS add race ballast. That way the racing will be fair no matter what cars are being driven.

what's the difference between adding ballast and evening the cars out - either way you are trying to be competitive in the car you like.

no the GT turbo ain't easier to drive.

just inject some common sense now, nobody is asking the cars to be completely even , that's impossible, we're just aiming to bring the gap down to a more acceptable level.

for me a difference about 3 to 4 tenths is very acceptable

I think the fxr needs a little more top end grunt and it will be fine

Quote from JJ72 :

what's the difference between adding ballast and evening the cars out - either way you are trying to be competitive in the car you like.

no the GT turbo ain't easier to drive.

The difference is that adding ballast actually WORKS. Even if all the cars were exactly the same, or even if everyone was running the same car, without ballast there's no way to even out the field and prevent the best driver from winning every single race in a series.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

In the case of the TBOs, they wouldn't be the same - there's three different drivetrains there. The GTRs wouldn't all be the same either with the different engine placements and one AWD.

I don't mean the same layout. I mean running the same times around the track. There's no good reason to make the cars have different layouts if they don't have the inherent advantages that they do in real life.

Quote :

I don't really drive the GTRs, but regarding the TBOs: I just don't like driving the FXO, which means I don't race the TBOs. The RB4 has the advantage on rally-x circuits, but there are only three of those, and the XRT has no advantage anywhere.

Precisely the reason to abandon the idea of evening out the cars. Make the AWD car great on the rally tracks, make the FWD car lighter and faster down the straights, and make the RWD car easiest on the tires and fastest in the corners (it should be purely by the fact that it's RWD).

Quote from Cue-Ball :

The difference is that adding ballast actually WORKS. Even if all the cars were exactly the same, or even if everyone was running the same car, without ballast there's no way to even out the field and prevent the best driver from winning every single race in a series.

that's of another subject matter then, though personally I think it's the point of racing that the best driver does win.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Precisely the reason to abandon the idea of evening out the cars. Make the AWD car great on the rally tracks, make the FWD car lighter and faster down the straights, and make the RWD car easiest on the tires and fastest in the corners (it should be purely by the fact that it's RWD).

well as the FWD is now faster in the corners I think you do agree it is sensible to slow it down (hence evening out the cars to some extent)

My problem with it is that I can drive a good line, not make any mistakes in the XRT, and have a FXO in front of me that slides big time through the corner and takes a poor line, and I can't catch them. They power out of the corner and walk away.
So, not only is it "easier" to drive, but good driving skills compared to poor, does not even out the situation. If one car is driven poorly, another car in the class that is driven very well should be able to beat the poorly driven car. It seems to not be the case right now.

Now, having said that, it could just come down to setups, but I don't think so.

I don't like the FWD cars as much as the RWD cars. I prefer to drive the RWD, but the way it is now, if I want any hope of winning I have to drive the FWD car (in the TBO class).

i been reading all post, and i have a feeling. i think that people like Dan, likes FXO and likes to win easy so they dont really have a problem with the TBO, coz if u are serius, u cant say that easly driving makes 2 secs around of diference in a WR.

Personally im racing TBO championship, (LFSLA.NET) in latin-america, the 3 cars are aviable to chose, but FXO ll use passanger (front passanger).

we are more than 40 racers in the league, and guess what.... 4 xrt and 3 RB4. (remember, FXO is goint with passanger). Im XRT driver, im fighting the 4th place in the champ, but the diference is: my best place is 4th, and i`v beated 2 WR`s INRACE!, and all races i go about 2 - 3 dec of WR (best lap). I never had a pole or faster lap, pass a FXO is almost impossible and any mistakes is 3x expensive in XRT, i never crash or go to grass bad in the races and still cant get a podium.
My point is, i allways race my LOVELY RWD but i already know than i cant win the races, being some of the fasters in that track/car and racing against cars with passanger.
My tires die faster, my fuel usage is equal than FXO+passanger, my damage and mistakes are expensive (in time terms).

I hope u get the point, is the way to proof that TBO is unbalanced

here u have the championship data: http://www.igesa.com.ar/admlfs/consultacamp.asp?camp_id=21

i really want a more balanced TBO, wider tires, weight, and less effective FWD system could help, and maybe FIX the differentials problem, be pulled to use locked on XRT is baaaaaaaaad.

****EDIT****
i forgot to say: in last date of championship PB`s where:
FXO+Passanger best time: 1:52:32
XRT Best time: 1:53:37 - XRT WR: 1:53:08

¿u still think that 8k makes a difference?

cya

Quote from Cue-Ball :

It seems like everyone wants to even out the classes purely to have different looking cars on the track. What's the point of having multiple cars if they're all the same in the end?

duh... coz is better for OUR RACES?!

thisnameistaken already said, they arent the SAME!

Some people like to drive the FXO, some people like to drive the XRT and some people like to drive the RB4! On our league we was close to just delete the FXO from the champ, but to dont mess up with the drivers who like to drive the FXO, we just added the passenger...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

The cars will NEVER be even on all tracks under all circumstances. Attempting to make them so is a fools errand. I agree with you, that having cars nobody drives is foolish. Frankly, instead of trying to make the cars all run even, i'd rather see each car with it's own specialty. Instead of making the XR GTR and the FZ GTR run with the FXO GTR, make the FXO more of a rally car, the FZ more of a sprint car (quick on short races, but hard on tires), and the XR more of an endurance car (easier on tires and fuel, but not as fast). Then, pick the right tool for the job.

We dont need the cars perfectly even on all tracks, but:

the FXO gtr dun race rally, gets owned on almost all tracks by other 2 cars

the XRR loose on sprint and long races

FZR is a lot faster on sprint and its faster on long races

whats the point????

OMG, its too hard to see?

Quote from danowat :

and the RB4 will always be the slowest due to its drivetrain.

Easily solved by giving it more power at the engine, thus after losses it could be equal. ATM it has less power than the GTT to start with, and weighs more, so it's on a loser from the word go.

Quote :

The cars will NEVER be even on all tracks under all circumstances. Attempting to make them so is a fools errand.

Correct. And that is quite a nice feat, actually. But right now, we have the FXO in TBO and the FZR in GTR that are the best car on all tracks under all circumstances. And that is what is wrong with the balancing and what should be changed. I'd like to see classes where Car 1 is better on track A, yet Car 2 is better on Track B.

hEY! I was readying the entire thread... and I would say that Im 100% with you Carlos..

Btw I raced the Kyto 24h, total of 9 hs on the wheel illepall , in a FXR (Team LFSLA.NET)and the FZR were almost 4 secs faster.. imposible to catch.. even for the XRR.
The fuel consumption that was the weak point in the FZR now is not. The same goes to the tyres.


I also race in the same TBO league as Fangio (LFSLA.NET) with the XRT and is almost imposible to win against a FXO with a passanger.
In the Q patch at least I can speculate that the FXO tyres wont last long. But now.. this is gone.

I do like the patch and the new tyres physics, but still the cars are uneven.

Bye!

while i love the XRR, and the FXR (the fxr being easy to drive through the corners more than any and throttle early) it is unbelievable that the FZR after 3 laps bests the other 2 cars by2-3 seconds without my trying. (i was lapping and comparing) the XRR can be tremendously fast, and it is a great car to drive, perhaps it needs a little boost in peak power? or light ness?
the 4wd GTR is superb but again- how can it match or near a lap time to the FZR? should the FZR retain the same width tyres of the FZ50 or is that too handicapping? or should the other GT's get more power (they are turbo after all)
the torque and power curves in the FZR are heaven though- it can pull you out of any wring gear in a bad corner and you can still make up for it. hmmm