Quote from PaulC2K :

We only received 4 replies, of the 13 PMs sent out.
Of those, we received 2 Yes, 3 No. (Yes, thats 5, one of those was mine, didnt PM myself )

So, on the basis that we didnt receive the minimum 4 'Yes' votes, and unless 2 'yes' votes werent sent to me, i think its fairly safe to say the Qual round on the 1st of March will involve all 11 European countries initially invited, plus 5 new EU countries (Austria, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia & Sweden) and all 16 will be racing for one of 11 places in the series.

It would be nice to get the needed number of volunteers, because with the other solution, again a valid participant would be excluded: Latvia. And we are back, where we started ...
But it could be, that Latvia is not interested anymore in the participation, since nobody from Latvia commented on this issue. Maybe I'll just ask them...

We plan to do it just like that. But just in case the MoE was too exhausting, we have backup drivers available.

Quote from joshdifabio :

The calendar was updated just over a week ago.

Thanks and sorry, my mistake. I always read "1 March" as 1st of March, but it actually says "Round one on 22nd of March".

Another question: Is the date for the first round (1st of March) still valid, because it is on the same day as the European qualification? Regarding the matter of starting times, it would be possible...

Quote from joshdifabio :

If, for example, Hungary and one other country, Country X, were vying for the last place in the qualification event, and Hungary had 6 sign-ups to the 7 of Country X, but Hungary's sign-ups included Norbi, Csimpok, revenger, mot3c, csurdongulos etc. we would probably use common sense and decide to include Hungary.

Csimpok tells me something, but I just don't know what...
That worries me a little, because if my knowledge about other drivers worldwide is as good as your knowledge about Austrian drivers, you might probably not recognize any of us. And that wouldn't do justice to the strength of the team, we presented. Well, at least jatino and huHu_ should be known...

Quote from joshdifabio :

If we do, however, we'll most likely filter the additional nations based on the number of sign-ups and the quality of their signed-up drivers.

I understand the number of sign-ups part. But how is the quality of signed-up drivers determined?
(Sorry for bugging you, but this time, it would be nice to know the elimination criteria before the elimination is done.)

O.k. - can understand that. The GUIs are just for the configuration and selection of replays. Basically the things you can currently do via command line parameter or config file.

Do I assume correctly, that the races will take part at the same time? This would mean, we have to use 6 different drivers for that qualification?

Also, we have currently 6 European nations not on the list, fulfilling the 6+ signed-up drivers. How would this work in case of the 11+5 qualification mode?

kr
Lion

Quote from Nick A :

Thanks for the update. Could you make it so it could be controlled by insim?

You mean, with in-game buttons? That's how it will be.
Or do you mean something else?

Since it is already a while and nothing happened yet, I wanted to give you an update on the progress.

I initially planned to do just as much as needed for a version 0.6. But something came up and I decided to go for a version 1.0 including a nice desktop integration instead of the command line solution. But this means, I had to learn some windows GUI programming. I figured that out already (with the help of Brilwing), but now, I have to find some time to finish it.

kr
Lion

@PaulC2K:
I tried to point out, that the reason "post of topic" for deleting my post is not believable, since it was also not done for many other off-topic posts. So it would have been appropriate to either bring another reason for the deletion or arguments, why my opinion regarding the reason was not valid in that case.
And if the intended policy to manage this thread contains to immediately delete every single off-topic post, it should be properly pointed out in some kind of thread rules at the beginning of the thread. Then it would be legitimate to delete every off-topic post, but it also has to be done consistently.
I admit that my post was not free of provocation, but has to be bearable for someone, who acts as a spokesman for a series like the LFSWS. Anyway, I want to apologize, that I made my point not more factually.
Your response to this pat of my post didn't help me to see, what was that bad in my post, that forced you to immediately deleted it, without any previous admonishment. In my opinion, the arguments didn't really match to what I said, since I never claimed, that my post was on-topic and they also didn't consider my previous contributions to this discussion, which I was referring to.
So, if there really is a good reason, why my post needed to be deleted, I'd be happy to hear and learn from that to avoid the same mistake in the future.
It was deleted because it wasnt helpful, constructive or relevent, it was bickering. I've said at least 3 time if people want to offer helpful suggestions etc then keep posting, but if its not constructive, dont bother it'll be deleted and the thread possibly locked as a result if there excessive needless posts. Nothing more than that. Plenty of post ive come close to just deleteing, but havent because they'd only complain their opinion is being muted, but tbh with yours there wasnt a need to keep it there. The other admins can still chose to read it and it can be revived (which is how i could quote it) but as you've said, it had no merit and wasnt going to help find a solution or calm the situation.

Regarding the editing of posts, I also want to try to express my opinion in a more detailed an emotionless way: I wanted to point out, that editing already publicly read posts is no good idea. If someone wants to join in to the discussion, he/she might want to know about the already discussed things by reading the posts from the beginning. And with edited posts in the thread history, it would be a problem, because many posts make no sense because they refer to content not available anymore or only in an altered version most likely expressing something else. Also later references to supposedly earlier expressed opinions cannot be validated anymore, resulting in worthless discussions about what was said and what wasn't.
It's o.k. to edit the first posts in an information thread to have the actual status up to date, but it shouldn't be done in a discussion thread. And even in an Information thread, it would be good, to document the changes by adding a post like "I changed this to that because ...".
So regarding the argument, that the post wasn't edited the past 48 hours - I wanted to point out, that posts in the discussion thread shouldn't be edited at all, but since it happened, we have a problem with references to previous declarations.
Hopefully in future the initial post will be updated with the rules as they are, then additional posts to the thread will detail updates and additions to the rules, stating what is added/changed at each point. However its much easier to just make sure the rules are up to date, we're all busy with other things so keeping a log of changes isnt something high in priority, but i think its probably worth doing whenever we remember to.

I also don't understand the reference to the reasons and criteria, as a response to the part, that you made a mistake, when you pointed out, that it was never suggested, that we will have more than 16 teams. Maybe you meant that it was not guaranteed to have ore than 16 nations, but then you should response with something like: "Thanks to bringing that to my attention. What I really meant was..."
To call my opinion "unconstructive moaning" and a pointless rant is also something I cannot follow. It may not been well presented, but it pointed out a problem and a mistake. Therefore in my opinion, at least the factual essence of this part of my post qualifies as being constructive.
It was intended as it was never said it *would* have more than 16 teams, as in may or may not, but no guarantee was given that we would have any number of teams, be it 2 or 50

Regarding the "Promise": Yes, I guess, I played the words a bit. But the problem is, that the LFSWS raised expectations, which it doesn't want to or cannot fulfill. This maybe could have been counteracted, even after the damage was done by posting a comment that sets things straight, as early as possible. But I'm not sure about that.
We did, Arrow posted the teams, i editted it minutes later giving reason for the decisions, explainations as to the method we came to this decision, and people started telling us we were wrong, and passed comment on topics they have no full understanding of, as if because they havent seen it infront of them, then it couldnt possibly have been decided ages ago.
We left it as long as possible, and gave everyone a weeks warning, that we'd be making our decision, in the hope of encouraging any sitting on the fence to take the leap, if there was sufficient teams (24-28) then we'd undoubtably have run 2 servers *despite* our joint opinion that just 16 teams would be the best way to start this series.

In general my experience tells me, that a league should be set up with having the important topics already lined out from the very beginning, so that everybody signing up at least knows what he gets himself/herself into and therefore will accept certain facts or decisions. And especially for decisions to be done by the organization, where there is a high risk they will be accused to be illegitimate/misconducted. Taking the 16 nations limit as an example, this would mean announcing this limit right from the start including the reason for it (test season) and also announcing the parameters, on how the selection is done. E.g. "We want the first season of the LFSWS to be a test season and therefore the number of participating nations will be limited to 16. The nations allowed to participate will be selected by the number of signed-up drivers. But for the reason of having a representative test season, at least one nation per continent will be allowed to participate, if the respective nation has 6 or more drivers signed up."
Also, when asking the community for their opinion and people respond to that, a decision made, contrary to any of the received suggestions and opinions should be reasoned - at least out of respect for the people using their free time to contribute to the series. And it should be done, when the decision is announced and not only after someone posted a complain about the decision.
I've only just read this post, but said almost exactly the same thing (in our forum) about an hour after you'd posted it here , unfortunately the beginnings of the series were already in motion before the organising group were put together to go over the various matters, it would have been far better to have had the majority of the series structure known (or at least the important aspects) before the sign-up began, signups began 10 days before we'd got together in our secret hideout to discuss these things, As ive already mentioned in one of my recent replies, the number of teams & format was the first thing discussed, unfortunately that forum was created by arrow hours before he went away for 10-14 days, so we could discuss a few things, but couldnt confirm much for certain, and we also didnt know just how the signups would go. I have absolutely no problem saying im fully for having 16 teams, but not at the cost of p*ssing off half a dozen communities when we could run 2 servers instead, however for 19, maybe 20 teams it doesnt really split too well, and it made more sense to stick with 16 teams, and fill a server and see if it all works, than having 10+10 in 2 servers and run 2/3 full.

Also, as ive already said, everything has been explained, reasons were given in the post listing the selected countries


Coming to the numbered part:

I want to point out, that 1) is a false accusation.
Since my posts containing my suggestions regarding a different mode and also the ones regarding the connection issue are gone, I cannot reference them here. It must have got lost, when Arrows merged the posts from the information thread into the discussion thread. But seeing, you remember at least part of my connection issue posts, you might also remember the elimination mode using groups I suggested, to be able to handle any number of nations but also get quickly to a full grid of really committed nations.
post 20-40 of this thread, somewhere in that region anyway. I was refering to since the announcement, not months ago, but even that suggestion had problems as i pointed out straight after.

I used the example of the Austria-Germany connection to strengthen my argument that having 32 drivers from 16 nations on one server most likely wouldn't work well. It was meant to show, that even the simplest setups can already bring big problems. You chose to post a video from the last 24h MoE race to do the same for your opinion, accenting, that it is an example for a full server with participants all over the world. Later you posted, that MoE is not a good reference for race with participants from all over the world. I wanted to point out, that you contradicted yourself.
You claimed Aus-Ger was a bad connection, i pointed out MoE shows this isnt true, and as ive said more recently, it has about 90% of its connections(driver) based in Europe, there are a couple of non-EU teams, but they only hold 1 connection each, compared to LFSWS having 5 non-EU teams in this selection of 16, meaning much more worldwide coverage, completely different countries rather than 11 all in 1 continent on a strong internet backbone. Its not contradicting, its knowing the difference between 2 full servers when one has maybe 3 NA/SA/Aus connection at a time, compared to one planning to have 10 at a time, all the time
I think in situations like this, it is just the best to confirm and explain the change in mind. For e.g., that you took another look onto the MoE and noticed, that it was a bad example. Or e.g. for the other case, that your intentions where to find a way to have as many drivers as possible involved in the series, but meanwhile where convinced, that other topics also have to be considered or maybe that it wasn't you that voted for or made that decision - depending on what it was, that happened.

Well, it took me four and a half hours to write this post, but I hope it helps transporting my thoughts better than my last one. If it does, it was worth it.

kr
Lion

PS: @chanoman315 - I felt, that I had the right to be pissed off, after my post was deleted, but you are absolutely right. It wasn't a very useful style for bringing my opinions closer to the audience - especially to PaulC2K.
PPS: @bbman - seems, I'm also not flawless (that's one for insiders)

Last edited by PaulC2K, Fri, 15 Feb 2008 18:26.

Anyone seen my last post? :eye-poppi Seems it got lost somewhere. It should be here ... http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=706953#post706953

No, serious: censoring is as low as it can get. Guess you found no way to discredit me, since I was constructive and even offered support to the organization. And don't give me crap like "The post was off topic", because we have enough here, that wasn't deleted (e.g. arrows "hahaha" or Celtics "Sheep" - no offense).
Looks to me, that you got scared, that this Austrian, who seems to know, what he is talking about, will shake a full blown Nations Cup out of his sleeve, ending this circus of yours. Tell you what: we planned to do something on the European level starting this autumn, but we don't mind extending it to worldwide.

Quote from PaulC2K :

FACT: We never once suggested there would be more teams than have been selected, never gave any guarantees that signing up meant you'd be involved, or made any other similar assurances.

... Its there in black and white (light blue), what more do you want?? ...

What's there in black and white is not worth much, since you edit your posts as you like, even in the discussion forum. And regarding your FACT: As a fact I still remember 3 options to choose from, where 2 of them clearly suggested, there would be more than 16 teams. (Yes, quickly - edit these posts). And we also still have the headline "LFS World series will consist of the best drivers from all over the globe racing for their country in a variety of cars and track environments in order to find LFS's fastest Nation." which I'd call a promise regarding the unlimited participation for nations and drivers. But if that's not enough, how about "This is where all Sweden players can sign up to be apart of Swedens world series team." I thought, the "apart" was a typo, but it seems not, since you told the drivers, that they can participate as the Swedish team just to dismantle the team afterwards. Or do I have to wonder, since the drivers signed-up are apart the Swedish team, where the Swedish team is? Hint: Works also for the other Nations, you dropped.

And if you say you want to have as many drivers of a nation participate as possible, and then turn down 40+/50+ signed-up drivers, or when you turn down my argument, that a server, full with people from all over the world, will have connection problems, as nonsense bringing MoE as proof just to tell us later, that you need to do a test season with participants from all over the world, to judge, if a full server is feasible, since this series is not like MoE, with 95% participants from Europe, then I have to ask you: Why would you expect me to put any value in what you write?

Anyway: We plan to do a fun race in parallel to the first race of the world series for us and all other nations not participating in the world series. We will contact you (all signed-up drivers of non-participating nations), when the time has come - if you don't mind.

kr
Lion

Regarding the fact, that we had quite a good number of sign-ups (10) with the offer to arrange for more, if needed for participation, an agreed team manager candidate, have very good skills and racing experience, showed active interest in the series by following and participating in the discussion, even offering our help and infrastructure for the organization, and the fact, that our country is located on this world, I cannot really comprehend the decision of excluding us from this event.
Also it was also effort to get the attention and commitment of the drivers, designing a skin, arranging for training infrastructure and, in case it might be necessary, even making plans to adjust the time table of our currently running Austrian championship, to be able to participate in the world series. And it is a blame, to see this effort go to waste.

I also checked already with some of the drivers and there is no motivation to prepare for the series, if we are on the waiting list and it could be all for nothing. Therefore you can remove us from the reserve list.

Just to make it clear: We don't want to force ourselves onto the list of the 16 remaining nations. We want to apply for a mode, that allows all the signed-up nations to participate.

By the way: If you want to have a representative test as you talk about you have to arrange for a team from Africa. And I'm also not sure about Asia. Have you checked with the Russians, if they are from the European part or the Asian part? I guess you can skip Antarctica, because LFS won't work really well with satellite connections.

Maybe we should organize the LFSWSRSFNNATPATLFSWS (LFS world series replacement series for the nations not allowed to participate at the LFS world series). So at least our effort and the effort of all other nations not selected wouldn't be for nothing.

Wow, the number of Sign-Ups has increased quite a bit recently. That's great.

Hey, if the minimum number of drivers a country will need exceeds 10, please let me know. Then I can take care to get the additionally required number of drivers for Austria.

kr
Lion

Regarding our servers: We tested several servers located in Germany during the past two years. One even being a dedicated host service for LFS. All located in data centers, all perfect for our German neighbors, all going down, when they were filled up with our Austrian bunch.
We know, the problem is the backbone connection between Austria and Germany: It's damn fast (I've seen load testing of German servers done from within Austria - quite commonly done because of the fast connection), but at certain times (for e.g. around x-mas), it has a package loss of 30%!!! No problem for Internet surfing, but crap for playing LFS.

Anyway, we are arranging a deal for having a permanent server within Austria. Located in a data center and as close to the Internet backbone as it can get. It's already set up and so far beating every other server regarding ping and it handled our last big race well.

Just want to say, we have decent servers.
And if the World Series is in need of an additional racing ground, I'm sure, we can arrange something.

kr
Lion

Yep, the netcode in LFS is awesome. I've participated at a race, where connection issues where that bad, that it took the game 3 laps to figure out, who is in which position. But it managed to keep the race going and that is something, you most likely won't find in any other online race game.
But I'm not sure about the disconnect issue. I was also watching MoE (live for 24 hours ) and the race was o.k., regarding lags. But I also noticed the disconnects during this day and if was visible, that the German teams had an advantage by being close to the server.
Personally, I'd say, the idea behind the feature of being able to have 32 cars on the track is to have 32 car races. And who knows - it might work out. But having a plan B would be good ...

I also wanted to add: If there is really only a choice between the 3 options above, I'd vote for option 2. This way, we can let all interested nations participate. Option 3 would offer (almost) the same, but you know our opinion regarding this option already ...

kr
Lion

After discussing these ideas here in Austria, we see some issues, I want to state here.

• The "full server idea": We don't believe, it is possible to have decent races on a full server with participants all over the world, because of connection issues. We made the experience, that we cannot even use our servers in Germany for our national events because of packet loss issues - we are talking about a distance of 300km and the connection Austria/Germany is considered to be pretty good.

• The limitation of participations per driver: Personally, I liked the idea, but I was convinced otherwise. It cannot be enforced, since drivers can share their account or some have two or more accounts. How to avoid, that an nation is reduced to only 2 drivers: Increase the number of drivers per nation participating in one race. This would also reduce the influence of luck - especially method of racing option 3 is very vulnerable to this.

• Limiting the number of entries: That's a bad idea, especially considering this is the first try for LFSWS. Does someone really expect the dropped nations to be happy about this and come back next year just for the chance to be dropped again? We consider the group method, like the Nations Cup had it, to be the perfect way to handle it. Unmotivated nations won't make it through the group elimination phase and then the finals could be done like option 1 or whatever is possible with a fixed amount of drivers. To keep it interesting, the group elimination could be kept short - maybe 3 races only.

And since I mentioned the Nations Cup: We don't believe, the Nations Cup tried to start too big. It just was a lack in organization, information flow and presentation. Areas, in which the LFSWS also still has some homework to do. But since the organization is on it, we hope for the best.

kr
Lion

I choose option ..... 4.

To be honest, it looks a little awkward to me, having only 2 Drivers representing a nation. I would think 4, or at least 3, drivers in a race per nation would be good. This way, we really could talk about a team event.

Option 3 brings additional trouble, regarding the amount of time, each driver is allowed to do. Having one good driver doing 1 hour 55 and the second driver doing the last 5 minutes wouldn't be nice. Also, 2 hours is no distance worth switching drivers. I'd say, this starts at 3 hours.

Regarding of race distance in general, I would prefer a number of laps high enough to have a race time of 80+ minutes, for some serious racing. (Only the strong shall survive )

Regarding the method of racing, I liked the Nations Cup concept: First having several groups battling it out and the best nations of each group make it into the finals. The number of teams in the finals is kept small enough to do the finals on one server.
Looking on the number of countries listed (35) and removing the countries without team manager aspirants or even drivers (leaves 25), it could be
a) 5 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
b) 3 groups with the 3 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 3
c) 4 groups with the 2 best nations of each group getting into the finals with team size of 4

kr
Lion

Thanks for announcing the (proposed) combos.

But I still have to continue being a pain in the neck :sorry:

Can you give details regarding the participation of the drivers per race? Two, Three? Any regulations, how often a driver is allowed to participate or is this completely up to the team manager?

kr
Lion

Since the current race dates are in discussion, I want to add my 2 cents:
For Austria, the dates are fine. Please don't move them. But we would have no trouble, if the first race is canceled / moved to the back.
And overall, we also have no problem with the current date for the first race, as long as the race details are announced soon (combo, length, qualifying mode, weather, ...)

kr
Lion

Since the first race is already on 1st of March, would it possible to define the combo for at least the first race?

And is it planned to assign race numbers to the drivers. Would be nice to know for Skin creation.

Thanks,
Lion

Btw. the full list of signed-up team membrs, so far:

• bbman (driver)
  
• Brilwing (driver)
  
• isehwurscht (driver)
  
• MasaHara (driver)
  
• TheBlackLion (team manager, driver, skinner)
  
• Mensafest (backup driver)
  
• chrizu (backup driver)
  
• huHu_ (driver)
  
• jatino (driver)
  
• LupusC (backup driver)
  
• Stefani24 (driver)
  
• Struppi (moral support and sponsor)
  
• Mik3e (backup driver)
  
• The Killer (backup driver)
  
• climbs (backup driver)
  
• Paracelsus (backup driver)
  
• schrauberherz (driver)
  
• ScheeFee (driver)
  
• Zakspeed1 (driver)
  

Last edited by TheBlackLion, Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:23. Reason : New sign-ups Schneefee and Xzak

Hi Arrow,

I will be the designated team manager for Austria. So, I guess, our voting will be rather simple, by me being the only candidate.
To explain: We already decided between all interested parties, that we will only announce one candidate. And it was decided in a phone conference, that the one will be me.

LFSWorld Username: TheBlackLion
I would like to run for the position of nation's manager: yes
Skills: driver, nation's manager, skinner, supporter, other - yep, all of it.
(Sharp tongues might say otherwise regarding the skill driver . And about the nation's manager, we will know precisely after the World Series is over, but I'm confident.)

Announcing new version coming soon.

The current version ticked me off a little, so I decided for a complete rewrite of the tool. It will also contain one or two new features.
I also got feedback from Starblue, that a visual interface would make it easier to use. I can agree to that and will add a button interface too.

@arrow: You might not need it, since you already have a good web presence for managing a league with the battle of the teams league infrastructure - but liveforspeed.at would like to offer their platform, if needed.
Currently, they host 3 leagues: ÖLFSM (Austrian championship), the Summer Challenge and the F1 Challenge.

kr
Lion