Read most of this and i thought you may find this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48CsfoRihqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48CsfoRihqg
one thing that i notice from Z to Z18 (or somewhere along the line)
I have always used slightly different FOV from single seater to closed cars. LFS always saved the different views setings for all the car types.
I just recently got TH2Go and have begun playing with all the features. It is all working 100%.
LFS still saves the x, y, z for the different car types, but defaults to the last FOV settings. Also, the new slider that shifts the view defaults to last and does not save from car type to car type.
I have always used slightly different FOV from single seater to closed cars. LFS always saved the different views setings for all the car types.
I just recently got TH2Go and have begun playing with all the features. It is all working 100%.
LFS still saves the x, y, z for the different car types, but defaults to the last FOV settings. Also, the new slider that shifts the view defaults to last and does not save from car type to car type.
this may be my first post, but i felt i needed to add a coment. (edit 15th post)
A few years back i found LFS by accident, and downloaded the demo. After a few months of playing 1 car and track combo, and realizing this was clearly the one of the best products on the market, i paid 24pounds for S2.
Since then i have probably wasted hundred of dollars on games. NFS, GT4, GT5, RFactor, GTR2, GTREvo, and countless non driving games. And lets not forget alot of people pad $25 plus cars and tracks to TRY iRacing!!
I still play LFS regularly, (Go EAGLES!!) and it is the ONLY peice of software i can think of that has been on my system (mutlple system really) since i got it.
I am talking about years of use for only $40. To be honest, i am not even sure how the devs business model could even make them money?
So if the Devs say $20 for some new content and the next big step, I dont see how someone could complain. That would be what? a total of $60-$70 for what could end up being 5? 6? 7? probably more years use??
tell me of another peice of software that has that kind of longevity for that money?
Thank you
(EAGLE) VT-1
A few years back i found LFS by accident, and downloaded the demo. After a few months of playing 1 car and track combo, and realizing this was clearly the one of the best products on the market, i paid 24pounds for S2.
Since then i have probably wasted hundred of dollars on games. NFS, GT4, GT5, RFactor, GTR2, GTREvo, and countless non driving games. And lets not forget alot of people pad $25 plus cars and tracks to TRY iRacing!!
I still play LFS regularly, (Go EAGLES!!) and it is the ONLY peice of software i can think of that has been on my system (mutlple system really) since i got it.
I am talking about years of use for only $40. To be honest, i am not even sure how the devs business model could even make them money?
So if the Devs say $20 for some new content and the next big step, I dont see how someone could complain. That would be what? a total of $60-$70 for what could end up being 5? 6? 7? probably more years use??
tell me of another peice of software that has that kind of longevity for that money?
Thank you
(EAGLE) VT-1
Last edited by VT-1, .
Or, possibly, the fact that iRacing just signed a deal with VW could be putting a damper on the whole thing. I really hope not, but it could be
I ran a test with the BF1 on Backwood. RaceS, but modified front sespesion to softest settings possibe to lessen wiggles. It started at 1:20's, after 100 laps, it was down to 58 seconds.
But the setup needs to be real soft in the front, but 58, is not bad.
But the setup needs to be real soft in the front, but 58, is not bad.
Yes, The Fox.
You really can not use the AI With the BF1 on any track were it will go faster then 180mph, it will get the wiggles.
1:09 may not be Super fast, on redline servers it would be average. But i think it is better then average.
The AI can get pretty quick if you train it right. I have been doing experiments with the AI to see how far it will go. The will never set WR times, (but my FOX on the Oval is only off by .2x seconds) but can get better then the average LFS player.
The track does not seem to matter, camber, curbs, none of it. (except for south city) It seems the AI will keep trying small vartiations to its line to pick up time. The variations seem to random, and very small. It will also brake later and later, and get on the gas sooner and sooner. Also, it seems the AI will run faster lap times with setups that would be to loose for most peoples taste.
I left an AI for weeks on our server a while ago (EAGLE) on BL1, and after what must have bee hundreds of laps it was down to a 1:09.xx. Not super fast, but i beleive better then average.
That being siad, it is hard to train them, because they have no concept of fuel or tires, so you just can not fill up the tank and let it go out. It will not know that it is heavier, and has to brake sooner, so it will crash. so you need to keep it with low fuel levels.
The wiggle that the BF1 and F08 get at high speed seems to have something to do with force feedback. It get the same wiggles that you would normally have if you let go of the wheel at high speed. It seems it can not compensate for it. I have made special setups of the BF1 for the Oval (very soft in front) that give it the ability to go faster befor the wiggles start (almost 20mph).
If the AI knew about tire temp and fuel, and was able to pit. you could just let it run all day long without having to touch it. That would be cool to try.
The track does not seem to matter, camber, curbs, none of it. (except for south city) It seems the AI will keep trying small vartiations to its line to pick up time. The variations seem to random, and very small. It will also brake later and later, and get on the gas sooner and sooner. Also, it seems the AI will run faster lap times with setups that would be to loose for most peoples taste.
I left an AI for weeks on our server a while ago (EAGLE) on BL1, and after what must have bee hundreds of laps it was down to a 1:09.xx. Not super fast, but i beleive better then average.
That being siad, it is hard to train them, because they have no concept of fuel or tires, so you just can not fill up the tank and let it go out. It will not know that it is heavier, and has to brake sooner, so it will crash. so you need to keep it with low fuel levels.
The wiggle that the BF1 and F08 get at high speed seems to have something to do with force feedback. It get the same wiggles that you would normally have if you let go of the wheel at high speed. It seems it can not compensate for it. I have made special setups of the BF1 for the Oval (very soft in front) that give it the ability to go faster befor the wiggles start (almost 20mph).
If the AI knew about tire temp and fuel, and was able to pit. you could just let it run all day long without having to touch it. That would be cool to try.
The problem with just starting, without letting people have some kind of input is this:
Race restarts,
Player is in bathroom,
Car teleports to grid position 4, Balckwood
Car rolls down hill hitting car in position 2
You can sub player in bathroom, with anything, player not paying attention, player on phone, player ???
If you need to hit a OK button before being teleported to the start position, this will not happen. The race will start, but you will not be in position 4, you will be spectating, or starting from the pits.
Come to think of it, this is exactly how RFactor, GTL, GTR all do it. When the race starts, you get sent to the pits, then have to hit race to teleport the the start grid. The only thing i hate about those games is it gives player like 20 seconds to hit "race", which does not seem long, but when you are sitting on the line waiting for the race to start, feels like forever.
Cue-Ball
More the problem is the teleporting to the grid, if there was a pop up, to let peple know the race was starting, and to press to get to grid, or if there are formation laps, then i can see not needing the Auto Hand Brake.
More the problem is the teleporting to the grid, if there was a pop up, to let peple know the race was starting, and to press to get to grid, or if there are formation laps, then i can see not needing the Auto Hand Brake.
The reality is that the "auto Hand brake" does nothing in just about every track in LFS. It is just there to keep you from moving by accident on the start. the only real place it does something is Blackwood because of the hill you start on.
So, for the most part, anybody who does not like it can pretty much ignore it. I do not see it as a big deal. On most track you can pretend it is not even on.
The reason it needs to be there is because unlike real life, we do not pull up to our starting position before each race. We teleport there, and if there were no Auto Hand Barke, we would all teleport on the starting grid of Blackwood, and anybody who did not put there foot on the brake, or hit the hand brake, would just roll down the hill.
But again, on most tracks, the Auto hand brake is 100% meaningless, and to argue over something that does nothing on all but one track seems like a waste of time.
People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.
So you would want to add something that would probably never happen (letting go oh the handbrake) on any of these tracks in real life, to add realism. Makes little to no sense.
So, for the most part, anybody who does not like it can pretty much ignore it. I do not see it as a big deal. On most track you can pretend it is not even on.
The reason it needs to be there is because unlike real life, we do not pull up to our starting position before each race. We teleport there, and if there were no Auto Hand Barke, we would all teleport on the starting grid of Blackwood, and anybody who did not put there foot on the brake, or hit the hand brake, would just roll down the hill.
But again, on most tracks, the Auto hand brake is 100% meaningless, and to argue over something that does nothing on all but one track seems like a waste of time.
People who want manualy release a handbrake, for added realism, have probably never been in a real race car. I have been to a handfull of tracks and have never sat at the startline with my handbrake on, EVER.
So you would want to add something that would probably never happen (letting go oh the handbrake) on any of these tracks in real life, to add realism. Makes little to no sense.
Modding is a really tough subject. I have all the "Major" sims. GTL, RFactor, GTR2, and LFS.
Of all the sims, LFS is by far my favorite. It just feels better then the rest in my opinion. And not by a small margin.
I really do not think that adding cars will be a big factor to me, but being able to add tracks would be huge.
I love Limrock Park, I have raced there a few times in real life, and would love to race it in LFS. A Fox on Limerock would be great. I am sure there are other tracks that would also add a great deal to LFS.
Adding cars is not as big a deal to me. The reason is that i have found that most sims do not take into account enough paramiters to make it 100%, so in the end, we do not have an exact copy simulated, but an interpratation of the real thing. And to that end, the cars in LFS are more then enough. Like i said, they just feel right.
Perfect example, A few months back, my wife bought me a "Nascar Experience" (For the record, i hate Nascar) What that entailed was a day of training, and 10 hotlaps in a Nextel Cup Car. Very fun!! Well, a few weeks ago, my Team wanted to try a new Nascar Mod on RFactor. It looked great, it sounded great, the tracks are fantastic. the car feels nothing at all like what i drove a few months back. Not even close.
Left a bad taste in my mouth.
But a fox at limerock still sound great!
Of all the sims, LFS is by far my favorite. It just feels better then the rest in my opinion. And not by a small margin.
I really do not think that adding cars will be a big factor to me, but being able to add tracks would be huge.
I love Limrock Park, I have raced there a few times in real life, and would love to race it in LFS. A Fox on Limerock would be great. I am sure there are other tracks that would also add a great deal to LFS.
Adding cars is not as big a deal to me. The reason is that i have found that most sims do not take into account enough paramiters to make it 100%, so in the end, we do not have an exact copy simulated, but an interpratation of the real thing. And to that end, the cars in LFS are more then enough. Like i said, they just feel right.
Perfect example, A few months back, my wife bought me a "Nascar Experience" (For the record, i hate Nascar) What that entailed was a day of training, and 10 hotlaps in a Nextel Cup Car. Very fun!! Well, a few weeks ago, my Team wanted to try a new Nascar Mod on RFactor. It looked great, it sounded great, the tracks are fantastic. the car feels nothing at all like what i drove a few months back. Not even close.
Left a bad taste in my mouth.
But a fox at limerock still sound great!
Also, I find it funny that we all want to move to a 3 pedal setup, when in real life, more and more cars have clutchless manuals, that seem to work exactly like LFS with 2 pedals. My buddy autoX's his GTI, and is not competing with exact same cars that have the DSG.
I have to agree with nihil. When i look out of the window of my car, I see an expansive view of the road. To look at the gauges i need to look down, an hence, am no longer looking out.
The cockpit view seems more real at first, but then I realized that 50% of my view was blocked by stuff that you really do not see when looking out the windshield. So i now race with the wheels view. It seems counter intuitive, but is a better representation of what we "really" see looking out of the car.
The reason i like to add the wheels to the view is it gives us a better idea of how to place the car. In real life, we live in 3D and it is far easier to tell where the car ends and how to place it. You loose some of that in the Sim world. The wheels view gives back some of that which is lost.
Now. that does not mean that "my" view is better then "your" view. I just think it is. You may think otherwise.
Maybe with TrackIR the in car view would be more realistic, because you can move your head about. But the view would still be like looking through a mail slot.
The cockpit view seems more real at first, but then I realized that 50% of my view was blocked by stuff that you really do not see when looking out the windshield. So i now race with the wheels view. It seems counter intuitive, but is a better representation of what we "really" see looking out of the car.
The reason i like to add the wheels to the view is it gives us a better idea of how to place the car. In real life, we live in 3D and it is far easier to tell where the car ends and how to place it. You loose some of that in the Sim world. The wheels view gives back some of that which is lost.
Now. that does not mean that "my" view is better then "your" view. I just think it is. You may think otherwise.
Maybe with TrackIR the in car view would be more realistic, because you can move your head about. But the view would still be like looking through a mail slot.
I think it would be a good judge of what your skill level is at vs others. It can be used with more then 3 outcomes, as i showed in my last post.
And FIDE and the USCF, the two biggest bodies of chess use it.
Like i said, it seemed to work well in TOCA. I just thought a number that could give an idea as to the relative skill of a player would be nice. That is all. I sometime go into a room looking for a close race, only to find out that everybody is either much fatser or much slower. Rooms could be set up with rating limits, to keep out slower or faster player for mor even racing. Leages could also use the rating system to determine how to place racers. There are endless ways it could be used. As the chess comunity already does.
As far as other varibles, since we all play under the same varible conditions, over time the rating would count for that.
And FIDE and the USCF, the two biggest bodies of chess use it.
Like i said, it seemed to work well in TOCA. I just thought a number that could give an idea as to the relative skill of a player would be nice. That is all. I sometime go into a room looking for a close race, only to find out that everybody is either much fatser or much slower. Rooms could be set up with rating limits, to keep out slower or faster player for mor even racing. Leages could also use the rating system to determine how to place racers. There are endless ways it could be used. As the chess comunity already does.
As far as other varibles, since we all play under the same varible conditions, over time the rating would count for that.
The simplest formulation for an ELO rating looks like this:
R' = R + K * (S - E)Much of the trick is in figuring out what the (E)xpected score of a game is. ELO uses the following formulas for players A and B:
R' is the new rating
R is the old rating
K is a maximum value for increase or decrease of rating (16 or 32 for ELO)
S is the score for a game
E is the expected score for a game
E(A) = 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( [R(B) - R(A)] / 400 ) ]It's a good model because, using the two formulas, it means that a great player gains little from beating an average player, but an average player gains a lot from beating a great player. Take the following example:
E(B) = 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( [R(A) - R(B)] / 400 ) ]
R(A) = 1900Player A is expected to score .91 in an average game, which is to say he should win 91% of the time, and will be punished accordingly if he loses to player B:
R(B) = 1500
E(A) = 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( [1500 - 1900] / 400 ) ]
= 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( -400 / 400) ]
= 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ -4 / 4 ]
= 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ -1 ]
= 1 / 1 + .1
= .91
= 91%
E(B) = 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( [1900 - 1500] / 400) ]
= 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ ( 400 / 400 ) ]
= 1 / [ 1 + 10 ^ 1 ]
= 1 / 11
= .09
= 9%
R' = 1900 + 32 * (0 - .91)Conversely a win nets him very little:
R' = 1900 - 29.12
R' = 1871
R' = 1900 + 32 * (1 - .91)
R' = 1900 + 32 * .09
R' = 1900 + 2.88
R' = 1903
If There are 4 players in a race. Let's name A the winning player, B the second one, C the third one and D the last one. We consider that there were 6 duels: A won against B, C and D. B won against C and D. C won against D. We compute independently the new scores for each duel, and then we average the values for each player.It's a fairly elegant answer that not only rewards or penalizes all players separately, but also encourages playing for second place, or even third, if first isn't possible.
ELO Rating System
I really wish LFS had some type of rating system. I know that TOCA had something based on the ELO system used for chess, and worked quite well. I dont really think it would be hard to put in. It would also be nice if you could see everybody's rating in the connections list.
The ELO system is very accurate and hard to manipulate. It is not just a mtter of winning and losing, but also a metter of how strong the players are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELO_rating_system
http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006/01/ranking_systems.html
Vinny
The ELO system is very accurate and hard to manipulate. It is not just a mtter of winning and losing, but also a metter of how strong the players are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELO_rating_system
http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/2006/01/ranking_systems.html
Vinny
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