As the test patch thread and forum was closed, let's move the discussion here (as advised by Scawen).

So why or why not should the automatic handbrake be removed?

Removed would basically mean that the handbrake wouldn't be disengaged once you shift up from neutral and apply throttle. You had to push down the handbrake key (or lift up a lever) and then release it to release the brake. Handbrake could still be engaged at the start for safety and prevent rolling while you are not control of your car while lagging.

The point of course is that it would be more realistic to release the brake yourself, and making starts maybe a tad more challenging.
The counter argument is that it would lead to massive havoc on the grid and thus adding realism would remove fun.

But I can't help thinking if this is even relevant in this part of development when clutch and engine models are not even complete and you can't even stall the engine. Not even to mention not having warm-up laps.

What do you think?

Discuss.

And sorry for causing (?) that test patch thread locking

My points are that that the automatic handbrake release should be removed because it would be a small step closer to realism, it would bring tiny extra aspect to the start. In my opinion it doesn't matter do we have at this point better clutch or stalling, but once we have auto handbrake will not fit that picture... it would have to be removed anyway at some point.

Scawen said NO because it causes total carnage at BL GP starts - but how does that that happen? You would still have the handbrake automatically toggled in the start - only thing you need to do is release it manually. (I'm suspicious did Scawen misunderstand the whole idea!?)

This whole thing also made me think about devs' goals regarding (S3) realism in general. LFS is very hardcore what comes to tyre physics and so on but everytime these "arcade-style" aspects are on the table (for example lots of people are also against removing of the space reset, Patch W9 introduced that too) those things somehow become "playability issues" or something.


edit

I'll just c/p my naughty request here:

And to the starts with handbrake. Imho, just an option to manually disable the handbrake would be fine. Here's one way of giving the the user 2 options to choose from:
Arcade
The way it is done now. Just maybe add a tiny bit of delay to the way the handbrake comes off, making it a bit more gradual, like linearly decreasing off in 0.3 seconds. As it is a driving aid, there should be a (small) penalty for using it and the penalty would give a small reward to those who do it the right way
Realistic:
As a new race is started, the handbrake is on but gets disabled automatically as you touch any controls. Or the handbrake goes off when you push the brake over 50%.

The handbrake needs to be on in the very beginning of the start (I guess) because sometimes there is lag when the restart is done and there is small delay between the end of last race and the moment when you are sitting in the grid in next race (lag at your own end). You don't want the car wonder around when you are not yet in control

how does having to press 10 buttons instead of 3 at the start add anything to the racing ?

It does add... the fact that you need to do something instead of just letting it happen automagically and unrealistically. If I want everything to be automatic, I'll watch replays.

Engaging/disengaging of button operated hand brake should take certain amount of time, just as it is now.
But, if you press and hold the hand brake button, the brake force will be increasing. If you depress it until the full force is applied, hand brake will be disengaged (you can use it in rally cross).
If you hold the button up to full force + eventually hold it more for defined amount of time the hand brake will be locked on, and you will need to press the button again to release.

Of course at the start hand brake should be ON. When it is engaged auto clutch should split the transmission, so you can rev up the engine.
At the green light you can touch the hand brake button, clutch will re-engage the transmission and car will start.

I'm fine with it is now. I dislike the idea of total carnage on the grid because so twit just accidentally twiddled his handbrake. I use the shift lever on my dfp for the hand brake, so it would be pretty easy to accidentally trip it reaching for a drink before a race

I would like to see a manual handbrake option.
Not sure how you would make it work tho, but the idea of holding the handbrake on, clutch at optimum biting point, revs up would be interesting!!

When I was driving on a w9 server earlier, and about 1/4 of the people were already messing up the start, and i guess making the handbrake manual too would even increase the number of dumb people on servers.

Quote from mikey_G :

When I was driving on a w9 server earlier, and about 1/4 of the people were already messing up the start, and i guess making the handbrake manual too would even increase the number of dumb people on servers.

I have done about 20 odd races with W9 and saw thatn only once or twice- And there was no harm done in neither occasions. I just don't believe the carnage excuse. But then again, maybe people are so used to all those driving aids that also make racing and driving faster and easier?

- by a race-start should be the handbrake toggled like in older versions! we don´t wanna remove the handbrake-toggle, and therefore will not caused a mass destruction on race-start because of removing the auto-release of handbrake. But i am not against the auto release of the handbrake by gear in and press throttle, i´m just against the auto release of handbrake if u get rammed by an other car.
- it should be able to toggle the throttle in a special position, and it should be made a cruise control like it used in real cars.

for toggling lights and horns is maybe at the following page some solution:
http://z6.invisionfree.com/cit ... p?showtopic=197&st=15
search there for "Updated For Patch W"

That carnage excuse is BS... if it's too hard for some people to understand, that IF you have handbrake toggled, MAYBE you need to untoggle it before you can move the car. Or what? Is that too unlogical? Do you think LFS players are really so stupid because players have used to all this arcade-like aids and "full throttle, wait the lights & cross your fingers" starts without a even possibility to do a false start?

I don't get at all this "it will cause havoc for newbie players on the demo BL GP", maybe Scawen sees this from the money perspective or something, but we are still taking about game that tries to be a simulation. If it's too hard for some people to press one button that has logical reason they're obviously playing the wrong game.

edit

You always have to look at what is realistic but then what is achievable and it is a trade off. IRL the handbrake isn't applied at the starts but in lfs it is. I think a good solution would be to simply have and automatic handbrake which disengages when you shift out of neutral. It would mean everyone would have to keep their finger on the handbrake button or foot on the brake pedal.

Seems like a good solution to keeping to the confines of the game while making it as realistic as possible.

Quote from Greboth :

IRL the handbrake isn't applied at the starts but in lfs it is.

Then again not many real tracks has so weird down hill start line place than BL GP has...

Brands Hatch does. And I think part of Cadwell does too. Parts of the grid at Lydden do. Interlagos does.

Lots of tracks do. You either use the handbrake (easy) or keep your foot on the brake and basically heel-and-toe away at the start.

I don't have enough practice with W9 to have an opinion about the current hand brake simulation, but I've not noticed anything odd in my brief testing - it just worked. But I wasn't on a sloping grid at the time.

If I understand what is being suggested, the handbrake would still be on when everyone joins the grid, but if you touch, say the throttle, the handbrake would disengage and you have to put your foot on the brake to hold your position. Is that right?

Quote from garph :

If I understand what is being suggested, the handbrake would still be on when everyone joins the grid, but if you touch, say the throttle, the handbrake would disengage and you have to put your foot on the brake to hold your position. Is that right?

That would be one way of doing it, yes

My English is really bad its really a hard job to reading and writing in English for me.... It seems like u talk here about the abolishment of the handbrake or the abolishment of the handbrake toggle-ability. I believe thats not a discussion-base. The handbrake must be in future, thats true, and every handbrake can be toggled in real life! Think about and maybe should this thread be closed now like the patch-test-thread i guess.

Quote from matze54564 :

My English is really bad its really a hard job to reading and writing in English for me.... It seems like u talk here about the abolishment of the handbrake or the abolishment of the handbrake toggle-ability. I believe thats not a discussion-base. The handbrake must be in future, thats true, and every handbrake can be toggled in real life! Think about and maybe should this thread be closed now like the patch-test-thread i guess.

No, not removing the handbrake from the game. Just not having an auto-handbrake right up until the green light comes on at the start.

Quote from garph :

No, not removing the handbrake from the game. Just not having an auto-handbrake right up until the green light comes on at the start.

I think just thats very good that the handbrake be toggled when u taken in the "grid" while the race starts. U don´t must drive self in the grid, this go automatically, and therefore must the handbrake toggled i think. If cars taken automatically in grid while race starts and handbrake is released, some noobs will keep on rolling down the hill and be sent spectating for it. I find the discussion about this really not importantly. The only good suggestion was in my opinion the suggestion that the auto-release of handbrake should be removed. But for cruising-servers is it more important that the the handbrake not be released if you are rammed. If u press throttle with a gear in can the handbrake automatic release, thats not very unrealistic and it exist in real life cars with such an automatic handbrake-release-ability.

Quote from matze54564 :

The only good suggestion was in my opinion the suggestion that the auto-release of handbrake should be removed.

That IS the whole suggestion... simply: in the start you'd still have handbrake toggled but you would have to manually release it some way. I hope it's finally cear now for you But yeah, in a way this discussion is useless because Scawen said no, which I simply don't get. Still not sure did he understand the idea before rejecting it.

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I'm not actually too interested about having to manually release the handbrake in starts because I wouldn't use the handbrake in the first place. In the first starts with the new false starts system I automatically applied the footbrakes to keep the car in place and found out that there is this auto-handbrake-chaos-preventing system . I was a bit disappointed because it takes away small part of the skill to make a good start. I guess people do use handbrake in real racing as well as in daily drivng on hill starts. I know it is handy et all but personally I use the foot brakes for that, handbrake is for situations where I need to park in slope (not in winters though ) or to stop for longer times...

:nut:

Actually, we should about removing of "automatic disengagement of the handbrake", not about removing auto handbrake, as that could be understood incorrectly, meaning that the brakes wouldn't be on while set to grid.

Quote from Hyperactive :

I'm not actually too interested about having to manually release the handbrake in starts because I wouldn't use the handbrake in the first place. In the first starts with the new false starts system I automatically applied the footbrakes to keep the car in place and found out that there is this auto-handbrake-chaos-preventing system .

Hmm... so

user option 1: handbrake automatically on and toggled in the start, manual releasing with pressing desired handbrake button or either first holding and then releasing the desired handbrake button

user option 2: handbrake automatically toggled until the game detects 100% brake axis. When that happens H-brake released. Some kind of "wake up detection" you know...

So everyone would be happy except those who likes everything to be automatic... I also think this would bring some skill aspect, even if it was very small aspect, the more things you need to do at the same time the harder is it.

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Quote from deggis :

But yeah, in a way this discussion is useless because Scawen said no, which I simply don't get. Still not sure did he understand the idea before rejecting it.

I think he just rejected the idea of having to toggle it off. I can kind of see the point why. It could easily become one of those things you just have to before taking off. It would be automatic for people who have played before, but new players would be confused when they dont realize to take it off. It's confusing for the new players because it comes on automatically and if you don't know what that red light on the dash means you have no idea that the handbrake is on. The more experienced players would take it off by instinct and "forget" about it, it would add nothing to the actual racing.
One option could be to remove the automatic handbrake all together, but it would easily lead to some other problems. Like rolling on a hill by accident or even lag could cause you to not be able to stop the car from rolling. In other words there needs to be a some kind of automatic brake.

Scawen had to choose one of faulty ways to do this and this one had the least amount of problems.

EDIT: Automatically switching handbrake off by pressing brake or any other button is confusing and should be avoided. It's not logical for the handbrake to disengage when you do something directly unrelated.