Quote from yegadoyai :

There is a lengthy forum update from Mr Kaemmer himself explaining the current limitations and the approach used which is an interesting read if you like that sort of thing.
(...)
Ha, too big to quote, attached.

That is what Dave posted years ago, when NTM was first released. Did he actually say anything since last build?

Quote from DeKo :

It drives much better than anything they've had before, it just doesn't drive as good as AC in my opinion. It's also missing a ton of stuff, including flat spots, real wear etc.

Ok, it's a geneal/vague impression of not handling as good as one would expect, but you can't yet put your fingers on what precisely is not right. Usually a few weeks after a new build, specific issues are raised in the forums. Maybe in this case it's taking longer because the model is more refined and the issues (legitimate or not) are subtler.

Quote from DeKo :

I agree and it's a damn shame, I love Proto/GT and the HPD more than anything, but nobody in their right mind will drive the C6R or the FGT anymore, and the HPD won't get the semi-decent tyres for another 5 months or so, it probably won't recover until grand-am and P/GT are thrown into the same series.

Why "semi-decent"? The only complaint I've heard on NTMv5 is McLaren behaviour on kerbs. But for the rest it seemed to be just great. Did any other issue emerge during last month?

Quote from DeKo :

Apparently it has the same tyre model as the rest of the NTM5 cars, as rolling in the updates to the tyre for just the RUF would **** up the rest of the NTM5 cars.

Ok, just saw this too:

Quote from Steve Myers :

This is a preview because they will get even better in the January build when all of the tire updates are applied to it. We could not roll out the full tire update because it would impact all of the current V5 tire cars which we did not have time to tune. Just to be clear the RUF is on the ntmV5, but there will be a further update to this model for all cars running it in the next build. AWD version will also be in the January build.

Speculations: the wording might suggest that there were in fact some tire updates that were applied, just not all of them. It doesn't say if the next NTM iteration coming in January will be applied to any other non v5 car. Given that they have it figured out for the Ruf, I would make sense to at least put it on the McLaen and comparable cars. In the comments on the handing of the Ruf, I'm reading of "fundamental grip issues" and "rear lateral grip" issues on NTM5. What are these? Is it something that emerged just now, after 1.5 months of figuring out all the limits and glitches of the october build?

Last edited by carfetish, Thu 19 Dec 2013, 10:46.

Quote from FireMike15 :

The RUF package is balls.

C-Spec version is really solid to drive, abit understeery in some corners and quite hard suspension making the car bouncing off curbs.
I just rolled in T1 of Spa.

The Track one is my favourite.
Just had some laps on Montreal, really love the feeling for the car and the power of it, also. Great downforce making it really nice flying around the corners, here. Can't wait to get on track again with this beast.

I can't say anything constructive for the 730bhp RWD version to be honest, just tried it on Daytona and holy crap. This is abit too much for me, this thing is getting 320km/h on straight here and isn't even controlable seriously.

So is this supposed to have a more uptodate version of NTM5 (saying this has like v5.2, while MX and solstice have 5.1)? Noticed any differences?

Quote from StableX :

After driving the skippy and MX5, I really need to see some other faster cars with the NTM. At least the Ruf will have that next month.

Where did they say they're going to release it on December?

A litte tease from Eric Hudec (referring to the Skippy in iR and the competition):

Quote from Eric Hudec :

To be fair, lap times have very little to do with quantifying handling accuracy. There are too many variables involved to compare real life lap times, which alone can vary by seconds a lap depending on the day, and what lap times are achievable in a simulation. We at iRacing try to get close to realistic lap times but that is not even close to our main focus. That being said, I think our Skippy is very good. Wait until next season!

Quote from SCA-F1 :

The car is not wholly different to the previous build, we're still continuing with most of the techniques we used on the early build. Thankfully though there is no more irritating "floaty" feeling - the car felt hopeless previously without sufficient downforce pushing the car into the road. On NTMv5 we have slightly more mechanical grip so now by default the car is much more predictable in low speed corners, and we're able to tweaks things in the setup which weren't possible before (for example: anything other than softest rear suspension was unworkable / undriveable, even at layouts like Silverstone and Spa).

But there is an overriding problem. In a simulator you can push the boundaries to the extreme, and what we're seeing again are slight drifts into corners and on the absolute limit of traction again exiting the corner - as the tyres don't degrade, there is no punishment for doing this. So whilst we were fighting to find stability last season, we're now pushing the setups back to "neutral-oversteer" feeling as that's the fastest way to drive this car. Despite a narrower front and rear slip angle, it still allows us to slide in and out of the corner in perhaps unrealistic ways, and even though 2009 Bridgestone tyres were notoriously hard compound (though still a bit softer than 2010 spec), there needs to be more punishment for ill-treatment of tyres. But everyone knows iRacing are light years behind everyone else in the tyre department, despite their serious two year focus and typical PR boom about it.

Nevertheless, it's definitely an improvement. Hopefully there is more to come - tyre temperatures and pressures need to be fixed, as well as the 'garage bug' which doesn't even give an accurate reading of ride heights, spring deflection, ARB preloads etc. As for adapting to the new car, I did a laptime 0.7 seconds off the eventual pole after just ~15 laps on an Interlagos setup, so it's easy enough to get near the limit. Getting closer and closer to that limit is the next challenge, but with some careful preparation and planning on the setup, it was achievable.. lots of front runners didn't even practice much and still had competitive times. Now that the car is easier to drive, I expect the gaps will close very slightly, but Redline hooked up an incredible setup this week which overshadowed the gaps behind, hence they had no opposition and could cruise the entire race. Hugo did an amazing job to stay within ten seconds of Greger despite a visibly slower car actually, not many people observed this.

Great detailed NTM5 review, thanks! You can tell it's written by a pro, really an enjoyable reading.

I'm not sure if about 10 days is enough time for the DWC drivers to totally figure out the NTM5 limits, but are they happy with it so far? Did any of them elaborate on the handling?

Any update on Lotus and NTM5?

NTMv5, huge, tread rubber compounds and how they behave, at least on a few cars next season:

Quote from DaveK :

Sterling, (and everyone else reading)

I am still working hard on the tire model, for sure. We decided after we put out the first couple iterations of it that everyone would be better off if we didn't put out a lot of little updates, but waited until we had big improvements to roll out. That way, you're not having to redo setups as much. And I typically have my head down, figuring stuff out, coding things up, and I don't really get into the forums too often. That makes it seem like I'm off on holiday, but believe me, I'd rather be figuring out how tires work than wasting time on some silly vacation. Just ask my kids about my beach-side reading material.

The latest iteration of the tire model (which is not out yet), represents a huge amount of work on the tread rubber compounds and how they behave. I think you will like it--we hope to have at least a few cars with this new tread model next season.

Quote from dawesdust_12 :

I know full well how the world works, ...

No doubt about it.

On compounds:

Quote from Eric Hudec :

Quote from iR user :

Is definitely there in this build but still not as evident as it was when I was modding, no doubt due to not having compound modeling yet.

The iRacing McLaren, for instance, uses tires with 60 parts hundred rubber (phr) filler, 15 phr oil and other compound soup elements. All of the other cars have different compound mixtures.

Quote from Eric Hudec :

Quote from iR user :

Don't the tyres still loose grip with temperature at all time, optimum is at ambient which at best may be 40'C? Compound can't be right if optimum is that low, that's what I meant by compound modeling. From what you said, sounds like we do have some compound modeling already which creates more difference between the cars, great but what about optimum temperature?

Compounds effect the performance of the tires in many ways, obviously. However, from one tire to the next, even sometimes with drastic differences, the performance isn't wholly different. In the case of temperature performance, there are weaknesses in the tire code on members where the tires produce optimal grip offset from where they should. Dave has been and continues to work on that.

Can you quote more from Eric?

Yesterday was the first DWC race after the update. Any word on changes to the F1 physics? I remember DWC drivers complained about it three months ago, saying drifting on the limit had become uncatchable. Is the issue fixed/improved?

Quote from SKIDMARX from gtplanet :

The FW31 feels much better now. Last season it's tyre model was a mess and it constantly had 4 wheel drifts that caused the car to understeer wide, this was most noticeable at tracks like Interlagos. It also had a limit at which you could drive, and if you crossed that limit the car would have some weird oversteer issues making the car unpredictable and giving it a horrible feel that wasn't nice to drive. It also prevented a lot of close racing as drivers didn't have the confidence in the car.

This season it feels a lot better so far and even in test sessions there have been some super happy drivers trying moves they wouldn't dare to do on the old tyre model.

Also the setups last season were completely un-realistic, whereas now they seem to have to be set up closer to how they would be in the real world.

Quote from e2mustang :

...

"Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else" – President Barack Hussein Obama, January 21st, 2013

Thank you Deko

Quote from Eric Hudec :

Possible tire carcass & compound changes to the high level stockcars (A, B, C). [...] The tires [of the truck] will have less grip, this is going to be applied to the other high level stockcars too. However, over-limit tire performance will be much improved, so it should feel more recoverable.

This sounds exactly like the NTM update that made the Mclaren the "safest to drive car ever in simracing", which has been so much praised for its record low number of incidents in the MP4 races. It seems we're only going to get that NTM fix for the oval stock cars for this build. So the F1 championship will be updated while in progress, and we'll have to wait April's build to see if even the V8 and Ford (the two most handful cars), will get as safe as the Mclaren.

Another possibility is that the steering model update (this one expected for most cars next week), will prove to be not so subtle for some cars.

Can anyone with and active account quote here these posts by Eric Hudec? http://members.iracing.com/jfo ... list/2468030.page#5124415 and http://members.iracing.com/jfo ... list/2470512.page#5160535?

After a few weeks of testing of the McLaren, more refined assessments of its physics are emerging. According to Jav from gtplanet, to be fast you need to set the differential very low. But while with values above 95 it "feels like a real car, it pushes but with good technique you can manage it", with values below 95 "it just feels stupid, the damn thing will do a 180 at 60mph going on a straight line". More on the behaviour with low diff:

Quote from Jav from gtplanet :

when you step on it it picks the front tires off the ground and tightens the turn radius (...) it's like the thing picks the front off the ground and steers by speed differential on the rears whatever steering angle you had in turn in becomes totally irrelevant!

Can you comments if you experienced the same and if this how the real car too is supposed to behave.

Quote from DeKo :

I recommend everyone gives the L79 a try, it's phenomenal on the NTM, doesn't have any of the usual NTM problems, cold tyres aren't faster, it can slide and be caught, tyres don't turn to mush after 1 tiny slide. It's fantastic, if you're not driving it you're missing out on the best car on the service at the moment.

Is it possible that the L79 is running a preview of the NTM5 while the other NTM cars are on older iterations?

NTM model updates were not mentioned in the build notes (that's the PR strategy of the last few builds, a countermeasure to the unconstructive feedback received before). Here's a good summary:

Quote from Bakkster :

While it wasn't explicitly called out in the build notes, the NTM got a nice handling update this season. While the compound optimal temp issues haven't been resolved, the feel has greatly. Many drivers are reporting between the NTM update and the linear FFB that many previous problems have been fixed (inability to drift, too hard to catch slides via countersteering, car feels connected instead of floating on the road).

Quite the improvement to drivability, heard very few drivers who aren't happy with it.

http://www.virtualr.net/iracin ... ailable#comment-601640510

Good news:

Quote from AllanGP :

Well I've tried the new FFB settings - a good solid improvement as far as I can tell.

... snappy lift off over steer is virtually gone in the Skippy, a few more laps and I'll be drifting it!

Quote from renard :

I just tested the Skippy at Watkins, what an improvement! Now it feels like a race-trainer and not some dangerous little dog that wants to bite you at every opportunity. I might even race it next season! :-D

I've yet to hear something about the NTM Jetta. It would be interesting now to repeat the experiment of putting an iRacer in the real life Jetta series.

Release Notes for 2012 Season 3!
http://www.iracing.com/inracin ... e-notes-for-2012-season-3

Interesting NTM bits:

Quote :

Ford Falcon FG01 V8 ... - Increased tire degradation.

For Pontiac Solstice and Rookie and VW Jetta TDI Cup:

Quote :

Added the New Tire Model, along with a full physics refresh to suspension, chassis, tires, aero and baseline setups.

Quote from J@tko :

Oh good, looks like they've ruined the Solstice with the NTM.

Can you confirm which cars are still OTM after the update?

Some interesting feedback:

Quote from Scott T McLaughlin :

Hey guys,

Firstly if your complaining, harden up its exactly how it handles in real life pretty much to the T. So I guess you better not drive this car..

Throughout testing we used the Motec Data Analysis system for iRacing to know exactly what throttle percentage we used in real life, brake pressure, steering angle even how much mid corner and top speed we had in real life. The tyre degradation was a hard one but we got that sorted and its safe to say with the final product that has been released it does everything the SAME, honestly everything.

Its honestly for most of you its gonna take some time to get used to. The set up window will be narrower but just give it time and I'm sure you all will like it...

Big thank you must go out to you guys for waiting so long for it, but the longer we worked on it the better it got, it wasn't like the guys at iRacing didn't work on it at all, it was because it was that bloody hard to find the sweet spot with the different physics settings, aero changes etc etc. So thank you for waiting so long but this I think will change the game in the case of the V8SC online series...

Also I think most of you guys need to thank a guy named Eric Hudec. He spent countless hours with me and Shane sorting this out, he was absolutely gobsmacked about how little grip it had but he continued to work with us to make it as real as possible! So I think he needs a big shout out.

But yeah really guys myself, Shane and all the guys at iRacing hope you enjoy it, i'm sure you will see a lot more V8 Supercar drivers coming on with this NTM and if we get Bathurst jeez louise you'll get sick of us!! haha

Thanks for the patience and happy racing..

Scott.

http://forums.overclockers.com ... 400446&postcount=7983

Quote from Rainey :

After a reasonably good go on the v8 last night I have to say I'm very impressed with the NTM. It has the best feel of any of the NTM cars I've tried. That line between grip and slip is like day and night now, it feels very realistic to be able to power out of a corner without having the tail whip happening every time, but it will catch you out if you're aggressive. I can see why Shane and Scott have given this update the go ahead! It is still a thrill to drive and quite difficult but all the time I've spent learning the car on the OTM is still worthwhile, unlike the transition from the Star Mazda OTM to NTM.

At virtualr.net someone commented that the NTM update includes, other than the compound/vulcanization improvements, "higher low speed stiffness." Could anybody quote here what iR staff posted about this?