(I'm sure this topic has been discussed already but I failed to find anything related.)

Let me try to explain my "problem"
I like driving in LFS but I'm not too much into tweaking cars, so I'm driving cars with their "stock" settings.
At some point I got interested how far away my driving skills are from those of pro racers (not that I held my breath, of course ). So I went to check WR hot laps for the track+car combos I'm fond of the most.
Now, say, let's take the now-current top hot lap for Fern Bay Black and LX4 (by MARUS, 2:48.150) — while the driver's performance is astounding, the car in that replay just does not "feel" like it's LX4, more like a GT car with a downforce.
May be it's just me but I assume the car's setup was heavily tweaked to better suit the track (and maybe also the driver).
And hence while watching that hot lap, I wasn't able to escape its reminiscence of "speed runs" known for 3D actions and platformers. The problem with speed runs is that they employ tricks you usually won't do while playing "casually" ;-)

So, what I'm leading to, is to ask: do there exist hot laps recorded for cars with "stock", untweaked setups? Or is my approach completely off the point and no one ever drives cars with factory defaults?
Or maybe the feeling I've got while watching that hot lap is completely wrong?

There have been a few casual fun races only using default setups.
Also there are a few similiar topics where people tried to create (or asked for) setups that work work on every track.

However, setups are very important and no setup (stock or other) will work for all tracks.
Two easy examples are gearbox and downforce.
If you hit the engine's redline in the highest gear but there are still 500m to go before the next braking point then you will massively lose time. Same with downforce, if your car is too slow on the straights from too much drag then you already lost before the race (or hotlap) even started.
With too little downforce you will be slow on a twisted track because you have no grip in the turns.
Those are just two relatively simple examples but it is similar for the other parameters, too.
You would need really good driving skills to keep up with someone whose car has 50km/h more topspeed or can take every corner 5% faster.
That is why everybody tweaks their car or downloads a setup. ( https://www.lfs.net/files/setups )
It is also possible to send setups ingame from player to player.
I think the problem with most "stock" setups is they are mostly too soft.

The most important trick in hotlaps is that there are unlimited retries.
In a race you need to avoid crashing else you might lose positions.
In a hotlap you just restart.

For example Fernbay Black has at least three places where it pays off to take a clearly visible risk:
The chicane after the first 180° turn, second chicane in middle of the long straight and the left/right turns just before the finish line.
The fastest lines are as straight as possible which means jumping two tires over the curbs. Often that leads to crashes.
Every part of the track is driven in this most extreme way possible, even more extreme than in qualification laps. With the right mix of luck and skill, lots of practice and many retries you finally get the perfect lap.
The hotlap does not show the hundred failed attempts.

The question of setup is regularly raised. It resurfaces today in the reflection on the modding system (see ivancsx's post in this topic)

https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2028923#post2028923

Since the beginning of LFS, setup management has been a problem.

Everyone understands the importance of having a setup adapted to the race conditions. It is normal that the most experienced drivers appreciate the management of the setup in LFS.

But the almost infinite possibilities of settings offered by LFS are not realistic. Especially for touring cars. And most of the hot laps are not realistic at all. In the real world, no pilot with all his head would drive like that, taking so many risks.

I think a lot more people would come to race on the servers if some of them (not all of them of course) offered single or limited setup cars. Why not have two categories of online racing?

I think this is a real topic that deserves to be thought about.

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

The question of setup is regularly raised. It resurfaces today in the reflection on the modding system (see ivancsx's post in this topic)

https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/2028923#post2028923

Since the beginning of LFS, setup management has been a problem.

Everyone understands the importance of having a setup adapted to the race conditions. It is normal that the most experienced drivers appreciate the management of the setup in LFS.

But the almost infinite possibilities of settings offered by LFS are not realistic. Especially for touring cars. And most of the hot laps are not realistic at all. In the real world, no pilot with all his head would drive like that, taking so many risks.

I think a lot more people would come to race on the servers if some of them (not all of them of course) offered single or limited setup cars. Why not have two categories of online racing?

I think this is a real topic that deserves to be thought about.

There's good reason why many of the most popular iRacing series are fixed setup. The sense of equality as everyone's using the same setup and a reduced barrier to entry as you don't need to find (read: pay for) a setup to participate.

Quote from gu3st :

There's good reason why many of the most popular iRacing series are fixed setup. The sense of equality as everyone's using the same setup and a reduced barrier to entry as you don't need to find (read: pay for) a setup to participate.

You are right. A fixed (or limited) configuration is a good way to restore some level playing field for new racers.
Many people new to LFS do the same thing as Kostix; They watch the WRs to assess their level. Either the WRs seem suspect to them because the cars there behave in a strange way and very different from their experience. Either they tell themselves that they will take too long to become competitive. Result, even if they appreciate LFS, they will look elsewhere.

You can enjoy driving and have a competitive spirit without having the soul of a mechanic.

I think limiting setup options in some cars to more realistic standard isn't a bad idea per se, however i'm not too keen on the idea of fixed/limited setup racing.

There needs to be decent base setups for each track/car combo, which is ofc doable, but even with a fixed setup, some degree of adjustment is needed for the driver to feel comfortable ie braking force.

The issue is imo, where to draw the line in here?

With fixed setup, can you adjust rollbars or bbal given that race cars can do that on the fly?
How about tyre pressures and compounds?
You need to find the right spot here, since varying the degree of 'fixed' per server doesn't make sense especially with LFS' small playerbase.

The question is if this would also disadvantage ppl driving with gamepads, mice etc.


Tbh i appreciate and understand the sentiment, having had driven fixed setup races in other titles, but with how LFS setup system makes it easy and convenient to share and upload setups, i don't really see the need.
I've driven some very fast sets, and while a good set can help you shave off a couple of tenths, it's ultimately about being to able drive well, fixed setup or not.


Re: Kostix's hotlap point, of course hotlaps are not exactly realistic, no race sim is perfect (iirc LFS tyre model has a bit too much grip while slipping), which due to the nature of hotlapping racers will try and exploit to the maximum to go that one or two hundreths faster.

But at least equally large factor compared to real life is that there's unlimited retries instantly, and no monetary constraints or consequences from repeatedly crashing.
If Fern Bay was an IRL thing, you can be sure people would drive those chicanes differently.



P.S.: Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's hard to take feedback about online racing from someone with 0km raced on LFSW (or maybe this is not your first account and i'm jumping to conclusions? )

Most stock cars feel bad. And people still will race like maniacs even if it's for ''casual'' purposes. It's a competitive game.

Quote from johneysvk :

P.S.: Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's hard to take feedback about online racing from someone with 0km raced on LFSW (or maybe this is not your first account and i'm jumping to conclusions? )

This is not my first LFS account. I know LFS since its first version. I had an S2 in another life but was not active on this forum. I decided to buy (a full) S3 recently. I haven't played online since for a bunch of off-topic reasons.

I'm not sure it's necessary to address the issue of limited or fixed configurations in such a drastic way. Let modders be free to limit configurations as they see fit and we'll see what happens. It's not about revolutionizing LFS (I know I'm touching something ideological here) but about offering an additional possibility that seems to interest some runners and modders. So the line will draw itself.

It is quite realistic for competition cars to have advanced settings. Seems less realistic to me for more mundane cars. In real life, it is possible to adjust the tire pressure of a Fiat Panda very precisely, but (it seems to me) the adjustment of the gearbox cannot be done as finely as with LFS. That's all .

It can be (also) fun to tame a car with its flaws and see what can be done with it. Players (like me) who prefer sensations to performance could (perhaps) be tempted again by this kind of online racing.

I have already practiced configuration sharing. Sorry for the metaphor but I can't find any others, I feel like I'm putting on someone else's still hot panties. I am not a fan. The idea of having common base presets for shocks, gearbox, clutch etc. to adapt the car to the layout pleases me more.

Ever since I started playing again, I've been racing against the AI. Even though modding allowed me to significantly increase the level of the AI, I don't need to modify the base configurations much to win. And I like to drive the car.

All players are different. Fixed or limited configurations could be a way to bring them together online more often and would put everyone on an equal footing at the starting line. I say nothing more than that .

I add one last thing without trying to argue but to be completely clear and come back to Kostix's point, because it seems important to me.

When you say

Quote from johneysvk :

I've driven some very fast sets, and while a good set can help you shave off a couple of tenths, it's ultimately about being to able drive well, fixed setup or not.

you are both right and wrong. You only gain a few tenths compared to an already modified setup. The gap is much bigger between a very fast set and the default sets. And it is this discrepancy that Kostix is talking about. This is where it would be interesting to have WRs with the default sets.

Certainly, it is very easy to obtain optimized and much faster settings. I have tried many. But (and maybe that's just my feeling) every second gained came at the expense of ride feel. Quick Setups feel like pushing a sewing machine on rails.

There's something frustrating about losing a second on a lap against a 12-year-old mouse player. But it's even more frustrating to try its set and find that it is not controllable at the wheel, that it is not even a car anymore. What is the miracle behind this?

LFS is an excellent game. Its physics are (already, in its current form) one of the best in the world. But LFS is a computer program. And for my part, I have the impression that competitiveness is paid for with the pleasure of driving.

People who play "casually" don't care about gaining 2 seconds per turn. They want to enjoy driving. And it's a shame to use optimized settings that make driving less pleasant and less realistic to be competitive online.

Hi

I would also like to have possibility to compete in the races where you have limited possibility of setting up the car. For example change only: tyre pressure, brake balance, wings, fuel load. Not that I do not like to tune the car, but LFS setups are allowing sometimes unrealistic values causing cars to be faster but for the prize of not behave like a real car.
Recently I also drive with AI, because on servers people are using very weird sets which are exploiting the physics of LFS. I can download unrealistic setup to compete with others but I do not like to do that.

Which are the car settings that can exploit LFS physics?

For example very hard setups with extremely locked diffs.

Quote from yaper :

Hi

I would also like to have possibility to compete in the races where you have limited possibility of setting up the car. For example change only: tyre pressure, brake balance, wings, fuel load. Not that I do not like to tune the car, but LFS setups are allowing sometimes unrealistic values causing cars to be faster but for the prize of not behave like a real car.
Recently I also drive with AI, because on servers people are using very weird sets which are exploiting the physics of LFS. I can download unrealistic setup to compete with others but I do not like to do that.

Thanks for your support. This is not the first time I have mentioned this problem and I feel like I am preaching alone in the zwin for the black-headed gulls and gabians.

I don't think preaching is necessary, because the need for limited setups was recognized by LFS devs a long time ago.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1316543#post1316543

Quote from w126 :

I don't think preaching is necessary, because the need for limited setups was recognized by LFS devs a long time ago.
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1316543#post1316543

Rarely does the preacher address his sermons to God himself...

Thanks for that update. Don't see any irony in my words (I have too much gratitude for the devs who gave us this wonderful game and kept it alive in adversity for so many years for our greatest pleasure) but this post is already more than 13 years old. And the problem remains. So I'm happy to enjoy the game as it is.

It's just a shame that people (not me, fixed settings wouldn't be enough to get me back online) would rather play against the AI than play online because of an overly permissive setup that degrades the gaming experience. I think racing with limited setups would bring a new dynamic. And now with modding, it seems possible to test it without modifying the historical game. There would thus be new racing references that would leave some room for new racers currently crushed by the weight of history. That's just my opinion .

Quote from Avraham Vandezwin :

It can be (also) fun to tame a car with its flaws and see what can be done with it. Players (like me) who prefer sensations to performance could (perhaps) be tempted again by this kind of online racing.

You've just precisely nailed what I think I wanted to express in my original post, but failed: I, for one, enjoy driving different cars with stock setups in LFS because they all feel different from each other, and in particular I like LX cars for them being—I dunno how to properly express that as I'm not a native speaker—have that feel of instability in them.
For instance, I also enjoy Assetto Corsa, and found out that I actually much prefer to drive what it calls "vintage" cars, and I think that's exactly due to that same reason: to me, they feel way more fun to control on the track than more contemporary cars with lots of engineering effort put into them to make them more stable. I know this allows to push them harder but also IMO takes some fun out in exchange.

Getting back to my original post: my problem with that WR hot lap was precisely in that the car did not feel like it's LX4, and I like to drive LX4, not something different made out of it through heavy tweaking

…Then again, I'm totally not opposing to tweaking cars, of course not. I adore that hardcore autosims cater to folks with different tastes.

Basically, my question was indeed narrow: I hoped that there maybe existed some sort of leaderboard of folks trying to do hot lapping in a way they would drive in a real race on a stock car. Yeah, I understand that's too narrow set of wishes indeed

BTW, thanks everyone who chimed in in this thread—a very interesting read indeed.

I would add that I relate to Avraham's racing against AI. I, for one, actually like to just drive: that is, take a car which is nice to drive, take a track with lots of different turns and as small as possible number of long boring straights, and put the car through the track, trying to go as fast as I can while actually staying on track

So yes, I can thus also say that I drive for sensation, not performance: Avraham put it wery well.

Quote from kostix :

I would add that I relate to Avraham's racing against AI. I, for one, actually like to just drive: that is, take a car which is nice to drive, take a track with lots of different turns and as small as possible number of long boring straights, and put the car through the track, trying to go as fast as I can while actually staying on track

So yes, I can thus also say that I drive for sensation, not performance: Avraham put it wery well.

Hi Kostix,
I am also not a native speaker. I pity our poor English-speaking friends who have to decipher my gibberish. I hope at least that our strange way of expressing ourselves amuses them and has for them something more exotic than annoying.

You have expressed your point of view very clearly. I did nothing but contextualize it. The problem you raised is not new. One could almost speak of the "Kostix point" in reference to the "Godwin point". This is a sticking point; an unsurpassable conceptual impasse in the world of automotive simulation.

What is virtual driving realism? Which side of the fence are we on? Is it realistic to be able to tweak the setups almost without limits to the point of making the behavior of the cars almost identical, whether they are real racing cars or vulgar pans with wheels? That's the question.

I am like you. I like LFS because it's the game that gives me the best driving experience. Becoming virtual mechanics world champion never appealed to my ego. I play to relax. And as I speak, I'm much more relaxed when playing alone against the AI.

We are not alone in this case. When I look at the server traffic, I hope for the developers that we are the submerged part of the iceberg. Which should be a question for a multiplayer game .