Hi,

From myself and the good ol boys at AHPP, we're wondering if it would be possible for an update to the LFS EDITOR that allows the exporting of OBJ / FBX file formats?



Would be greatly appreciated 🤝🏼

Being part of AHPP, I totally agree. It definitely would speed up some mod development, currently there is a process to export to obj, though involves using 3rd party tools, which always has to be cleaned up afterwards, easily a couple hours for each export. Another really useful feature adjacent to this if it could import materials back in, being able to export to blender or other, work on it, then import it again would greatly speed up 3d modelling for lfs (though I’m pretty happy with the editor, speaking from what I’ve heard in the community)

The downside is that it would also make it easier to steal models.

Quote from Flame CZE :

The downside is that it would also make it easier to steal models.

Only for other games though, not sure if this would adjust the risk of someone taking someone else's mod model to re-upload here since it's all community ran and reviewed. Which if someone is already planning on uploading models from here to another game, I'm sure they would have the 3rd party tools to do so (which I believe the LFS car license should make that illegal)

Quote from OpenClutch :

Only for other games though, not sure if this would adjust the risk of someone...

There is already some tools to ripp mods yes , but you need some knowledge to use them , if we add that obj export thing , mostly everyone could do it , not only for reuploading mods without permission but asw as stealing parts or even reselling 3d models (imagine you make a model from 0 and someone is making money on you , its already possible anyways since lfs have 0 security).

Quote from neozixxs :

There is already some tools to ripp mods yes , but you need some knowledge to...

Everyone will have access to it, doesn't mean everyone will steal.

Now for the few that rip the models!!.. Uploading a non textured, no wheels model onto sketchfab and asking for $ doesnt scream stolen?? Id love to see how many “sales” they get lol

The people who already had malicious intent will look for ways to rip and inevitably find the popular programs.
My Tegra was stolen 3 times and PUBLISHED on LFS ( without a export OBJ feature ) before i just made it open derivatives.

Now i get it we dont want our models to be stolen and sold to.. *checks notes* Other popular 2003 racing games…………..

So let me review the cycle here; people export the OBJ’s, reupload a untextured grey low poly car model to sketchfab for MONEY, people will then buy these models and use them for their own personal!- LFS mods.

Listen the tools are already available so its no big deal to not implement it into the LFS editor.

I +1 this, as stated by jake, it's redudent to not allow it as it's already possible to convert sre to obj using supplied tools.

or it can be allowed only for mods that have "Derivatives are allowed : YES".

I've asked the mod reviewers about this but we didn't come to any strong conclusions.

I'd like to consider a simple (and limited) exporter to OBJ format, from LFS editor, that allows the plain grey model to be loaded into other 3D software.

It wouldn't export the mappings. Our type of mapping isn't supported in the OBJ format. Although I think it is possible (but not really easy to code) to export mapped models, there is no way to read LFS style mappings from an OBJ model. So from LFS editor point of view it's not worth coding to export with textures at this time.

Although I haven't looked in detail, I think it is simple enough to allow an OBJ export of the points, triangles and normals. I understand this could be useful and I wouldn't mind doing a few hours on that at some point.

So we are left with, what problems could arise? The only issue I see is that someone could load a mod in our editor and export the plain grey model, which might be a breach of someone's "no derivatives" license. The proposed export function just makes it easier to get a 3D model out from an LFS mod, to be used somewhere else. It doesn't really allow anything that wasn't possible anyway, just makes it easier.

Quote from Scawen :

So we are left with, what problems could arise? The only issue I see is that someone could load a mod in our editor and export the plain grey model, which might be a breach of someone's "no derivatives" license. The proposed export function just makes it easier to get a 3D model out from an LFS mod, to be used somewhere else. It doesn't really allow anything that wasn't possible anyway, just makes it easier.

This will also make it easier to get access to 3D models that were purchased from 3D asset websites like (Sketch)fab or CGTrader.

Quote from Flame CZE :

This will also make it easier to get access to 3D models that were purchased...

Very true, It's the same with other popular free programs as they all have export ability's so I could rip / buy a model and share the original or re-exported file to others.
Actually a problem on sketchfab is this concept, you can tell the non-textured grey high triangle count models are (most always) rips from popular games.

It's a hard question to solve... A answer could be to hand select allowed individuals, and have a "dev" version of the editor that just includes exporting functionality?

It's only a matter of sharing LFS EDITOR file types between different editing programs through the site / discord for me. I enjoy the editor and others are starting there, while others are used to Blender or SketchUp, cad, etc.

We've found that people who want to steal models will find a way with popular tools where normal modellers have to resort to the ripping tools to just pull their derivative models / parts out to work in common external programs.

Quote from HOUSSEM.221B :

or it can be allowed only for mods that have "Derivatives are allowed : YES"

I agree with Houssem, although it's strange that this needs to be discussed at all.

Quote from Scawen :

it doesn't really allow anything that wasn't possible anyway, just makes it easier

Quote from Jake_Blasted :

listen the tools are already available so its no big deal to not implement it into the LFS editor

Quote from JayDeM :

it's redudent to not allow it as it's already possible to convert sre to obj using supplied tools

What you're saying is like: ‘lock pics are already available, so it's no big deal to leave home door unlocked’.

Weak protection is better than nothing, but it doesn't seem so easy:

Quote from OpenClutch :

currently there is a process to export to obj, though involves using 3rd party tools, which always has to be cleaned up afterwards, easily a couple hours for each export

Quote from Flame CZE :

This will also make it easier to get access to 3D models that were purchased...

Exactly, this may complicate licensing purchased models. As a modder, I would like to have an option to export the 3D model back to Blender, but on the other hand stealing 3D models is a real problem. Recently I found a post on Reddit (the attached screenshot), where somebody tries to steal 3D models of four LFS mods. Three of them were made specially for LFS, one was purchased and one even licensed. Personally, I am ok when people "have fun" with my amateur models (if they do not make profit out of them), but I am certainly not happy, when a licensed stuff is being stolen.

Quote from stuchlo :

Exactly, this may complicate licensing purchased models. As a modder, I would...

This guy wants to create mod cars, but doesnt want to buy the S3 license?
Cool if he wants to create mods for LFS community but he never wants to drive them? Weird / sketchy.

Quote from Egor K :

I agree with Houssem, although it's strange that this needs to be discussed at...

My last comment basically summed it up, modellers are already using these tools for legit legal uploads just export derivative mods & parts to blender for editing. It can be a pain to work with the exported models, but thats also the by product of the export which can be turned into a point for security of theft.

I can see a limited access thing but it is a difficult thing to implement without making this project bigger with encryption and model checks back to LFS.net to somehow know if a mod is ripped.

Quote from HOUSSEM.221B :

or it can be allowed only for mods that have "Derivatives are allowed : YES".

Quote from Egor K :

I agree with Houssem, although it's strange that this needs to be discussed at all.

This seems impractical, I'm just talking about a simple function to export an OBJ. I can't even start to think how the suggestion could be implemented, somehow with the Editor connected online and having knowledge of where every model came from, and even track that if they saved out and reloaded the model? It's not really possible, I think.

This is only about a simple export from the modeller. As far as I know, this is a common feature for 3D software and I'm not sure if LFS Editor should be different.

Quote from Egor K :

What you're saying is like: ‘lock pics are already available, so it's no big deal to leave home door unlocked’.

I'm interested to understand what is the main concern.

Of course, LFS models can already be easily saved for reload in LFS editor.

So what is the main worry, is it that people might rip LFS mods and use them in other games?
(Although they can do it anyway but the new feature would make it easier to save a clean model)

obj export will be very useful but the security is the only issue here, im sure alot of other modders like me who create mods from scratch for lfs will agree that anyone can access and rip those models or sell them somewhere on the internet.

so what if we get suggestion every time we export mod for upload that says "do you want to lock this mod" if select yes then the "veh" file will be locked and if anybody try to load it on editor after taking it from game files will get an error message that says its locked.

that way the security will be enhanced and the obj export can be possible option.

You can be certain someone will quickly find a way to look at the file with a hex editor to compare a locked/non-locked version of the same mod to know how this works, unfortunately such security is weak at best. In a way however, it reminds me of concerns about code reverse-engineering: people typically want their source code to be obfuscated in their release binaries, so people cannot (easily) just grab the code and do whatever with it (this is a topic that comes about here and there in the Godot community for instance) - the goal of encryption/obfuscation is not to make it bulletproof, but rather to deter "script kiddies" from having easy access, leaving only the more experimented and willing to invest time to worry about.

In general, having some security is better than none, especially in a legal setting, so you can say "my resource was protected and they stole it" - and in that sense, allowing OBJ export nulls that argument, because any mod can be loaded into the editor.
But then again, having the ability to export to OBJ would be useful, so it's a difficult topic

i'm aware that it's impossible to make it bulletproof, but at least better then leaving the door open as it is for anyone to take what they want.

I guess I'll have to go on thinking over time, as it appears the simple function is too controversial without other security measures, but those security measures are a much more complicated subject.

Maybe it's more like, the simple function should be in there, as a simple function and without its own security measures, but the protected model itself should be prevented from loading into the editor by unauthorised people.

But that is a whole new level of complication and I don't have any time to start trying to figure that out.

I also know in advance that is the least satisfying type of work, if I ever do it, I would have to work for many hours or days implementing things into the editor, the web server, the game, and all the while knowing that hackers will easily flip the switch, undo the encryption, etc. Setting out on a task that you know for certain will fail is never very enticing.

+1 with this idea, since i dont know how to 3d in blender but i perfectly know how to 3d in lfs editor, so for example i can build my own things in lfs editor, then export to obj, then put it on sketchfab for example. But in my opinion, it should be only on your own works, not derivitave allowed models made by others.

Maybe it could be:

The mods stored on the server and downloaded to LFS could be in an encrypted form that LFS game can read but LFS editor cannot read.

Then the only legitimate way to load things into your editor is by downloading the mod manually in editor form (not encrypted) via legitimate means, e.g. from mod's page when it allows derivatives, or direct from the author.

Problems with this:

1) All the mods currently on the server are in editor form and not ready to be downloaded in the proposed format. So a big switchover operation might be needed.

2) As mentioned before, this type of encryption, that anyone's S3 license can decrypt, can be easily cracked. Someone would release a decryption tool for encrypted mods, to convert game-ready mods into editor mods.

I don't know if this low level of security would be enough. It's not something I'll be doing in the near future though as you know what I am still working on.

another idea that comes in my head is to store "veh" files into a WinRAR with random long passwords.
winrar is not made to be security app as its used to serve deferent tasks but it has safe protection for modern standards, again its just an idea as i know it may take long time or it may fix a problem but create more problems else where.

Quote from Scawen :

as you know what I am still working on.