WARNING : THIS IS A TEST WHICH IS LIKELY TO HAVE PROBLEMS

The sound system now works in a very different way! It's just the same old sounds but they don't use a prediction based on a position reported by Windows, instead they use a callback. This is supposed to fix the Windows Vista sound bug, and should, I hope, provide more responsive sound in other versions of Windows as well, and possibly give slight performance increase. But the changes are extensive and different parts of the program are trying to run at the same time, so there really might be some mysterious problems. There is no more "Sound Lag" slider bar.

Test Patch U22 contains some fixes for U21 - including smaller, more frequent sound blocks. You can change the number of these with a new "Sound Blocks" control in Misc Options. Each block is equivalent to approx 1/20th of a second of sound lag.

Changes in TEST PATCH U22 :

Engine sound can now be heard from a greater distance
Sound blocks reduced in size for more responsive sound
New setting : Options... Misc... Sound Blocks (default 2)

FIX : S1 hosts were invisible in S2 list of games after refresh
FIX : Skid and scrape sounds are now bounded to reasonable level

Changes in TEST PATCH U21 :

New strings for buttons : end race, spectate, join (were shared)
New string "play" instead of "OK" button in replay select screen
HLVC : NEXT lap is now not invalidated by driving the wrong way
S2 users can now see and join S1 hosts in List of Games screen
S1 users can now use the automatic skin download system
Included Czech translation of training lessons

FIX : When REV config replay was selected, REV was not displayed
FIX : When there were no SPR replays, MPR vanished from ALL view
FIX : Rare problem causing your car to vanish on other computers
FIX : Could not view user names in replay if MP mode was Demo
FIX : Bug in camera position height part of sound calculation
FIX : Unlocking is now possible in Windows Vista 64-bit
FIX : Sound should now work correctly in Windows Vista

NOTE : Translatable text updated

DOWNLOAD :

TEST PATCH U22 :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_U22_TEST.zip

DEDICATED HOST U22 (for hosting only) :
www.liveforspeed.net/file_lfs.php?name=LFS_S2_DEDI_U22.zip

RE: U22

I am getting these "pops" when at low idle with the BF1. Changing the sound block to 1 - 5, doesn't make a difference.

I tried to record it, but it doesn't show up as well. But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more. So for instance in this sound clip, I parked next to the side wall on the oval and it would start popping pretty loud.

-Audigy 2

Quote from Scawen :

New setting : Options... Misc... Sound Blocks (default 2)

Ok, this fix sound latency (when is set on 1), but i still have "pops", with all cars.
Like as Tweaker.

Quote from Tweaker :

But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more.

Maybe.

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok

Quote from Dredd :

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok

Yes, in (Blackwood Car Park) or (Autocross) is ok...

So..."echo"...

Quote from Dredd :

park the car away from barrier/sidewall, i find sound ok

Yes it sounds fine when you are away from things that create echoing. But if you are close to places that create echo (or are in tunnels/under-bridges or whatever), you get some popping. This is mostly prominent when near walls like in South City. But it goes down if you turn down your echo volume, and car/master volume in the game. It doesn't go away, but it just decreases it.

Smack, Crackle, Pop!

The boost audio system only makes things worse, which I find wierd. Scawen, I've always wondered why it acts funny for me, especially the volume levels. Because to have the volume of my car match other audio sources like music, video, etc... I need to have the car volume boost at 15.0 or 20.0. This matches my normal output volume. However, LFS seems to always run at a lower volume to try and alleviate hiss and pops or something. And so by default you have it at 10.0 and that is about half the volume for LFS, and I can hardly hear it. I do not like turning up the car volume in LFS to anything above 10.0 because it will just create pops (even though 10 still does it). So I have to keep it at 10, and always raise the volume of my computer or speakers to get what I want. But then my music is extremely loud. This isn't a problem with my wave volume sliders or whatever on my system.... everything else is pretty much equalized in terms of volume, but LFS is always softer, and needs to be softer to not have popping. I've had this popping in LFS before U21/22, but these latest patches seem to make the popping worse for me. And the boost audio systems in LFS always have acted strangely, and the boost just LESSENS the quality, and creates a lot of distortion when at high settings. I'd like to have more echo, and more car volume, without increasing my main system volume.... but that is just not possible without crackling.

I still experience sound lag with U22 regardless of what value I use in the 'Sound Blocks' setting, as well as the popping when driving close to a wall

The patch should not lock it back to demo mode, didn't for me.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

I still experience sound lag with U22 regardless of what value I use in the 'Sound Blocks' setting, as well as the popping when driving close to a wall

When you say "still" what do you mean - what are you comparing it with? U21 or U20?

Please can anyone who describes the sound, tell me what operating system they are using and how it compares with old versions of LFS.

Athlon XP 64-bit, WinXP Pro w/SP2 32-bit

U22 vs U21: sound lag is there, perhaps marginally, and I mean in the tiniest sense it might be less than in U21, but definitely noticeable.

U22 and U21 vs U20: U20 has no sound issues whatsoever, the latter two test patches have lag and at least U22 has popping when driving next to a wall.

Quote from Scawen :

Please can anyone who describes the sound, tell me what operating system they are using and how it compares with old versions of LFS.

The popping has happened for me ever since S2 has been out iirc. The echo had always created some distortion for the wind and reverberated car noises off objects. Though, compared.... U22 has a lot more noticeable popping. And even now at idle with the BF1, I get popping, and I don't recall having that problem ever.

Windows XP SP2
Audigy 2 ZS

Quote from Tweaker :

I am getting these "pops" when at low idle with the BF1. Changing the sound block to 1 - 5, doesn't make a difference.

I tried to record it, but it doesn't show up as well. But I notice it happens the most when the "echo" feature is being used more. So for instance in this sound clip, I parked next to the side wall on the oval and it would start popping pretty loud.

Ok, this bug I can reproduce. I agree, it's not well reproduced in your MP3, not really clear. But it becomes clear simply by driving a GTI beside the wall in South City, and that's a definite U21 / U22 bug, compared with U20. That is a LFS bug and should definitely be possible to fix and I'll try that today. Though I must say, I would decribe it as crackling not popping. Maybe it depends on what speakers you have though. And really, the one I am talking about is a new thing in U21 / U22 and not in U20 at all.

What I'm worried about is people reporting Sound Lag and skipping (sound breaking up). This new system was supposed to prevent that kind of thing. The new system should have eliminated the need for the Sound Blocks setting or any kind of techy setting like that. I need to know which operating systems have that issue, and how low people can go with Sound Blocks. Default is 2 but lag is less when set to 1, but skipping becomes more likely (if there is a frame rate glitch).

Yeah the sound lag before would cause problems if I turned it down to 0.10 in the older versions. This would create skipping with the sound, and actually drop framerate if I was around a few cars (sp or mp)! But now this block system is probably better, as I shouldn't have any problem as severe as the sound lag option. Though, I still need to test it with several cars and see what happens.

And yeah crackling is a better word I guess. I have a nice set of speakers and headphones, and the feedback from them is quite good so I hear things like this. If I just had a cheapo set, I'd probably not hear much and it would be muffled. My friend has better ears than me, and makes music for a living. He hears crackling and even some whines for some cars, which is kind of odd. I think I've heard those before, but not sure.

While I'm looking at that echo crackling bug, I'd really like to see if we can see any kind of pattern with those who experience SOUND LAG or SKIPPING when driving normally. Also I'd like to hear from anyone with Vista, if it does work well now (remember U20 sound did not work in Vista unless you put the Sound Lag up high).

So... the questions to answer :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

Tweaker, the problem you have with levels is a widespread "loudness war" in pop music production, and they use expensive multiband compressors and limiters to achieve those high levels without distortion, so I wouldn't worry about music being louder on average than dynamic LFS sound. Thats just normal. If LFS was to acheve those levels (and destroy dynamic variations btw) Scawen would need to hook some kind of limiter at the final stage of internal LFS sound mixer. Which is not impossible since he already put a simple echo in there. I'd like to see boost in LFS to be limited to something like 14 or even less. I'm quite appaled to hear many LFSers just crank that up and yet say that it sounds better. Don't they have any ears. Sorry for the slight off-topic, working with sound is my job, so I notice more.

I just tested U22 breifly. I have Win XP SP1, SB Live with kX drivers, and it works well, even with Sound Blocks set to 1. There are very occasional pops and crackles and much more of them when echo is heard. Especially noticable in quieter road cars. Default Sound Blocks on 2 works better, of course, but still crackles close to walls. (if 1 block is 1/20th of a second then 2 blocks is old minimal setting of 0.10s, and 1 block would be 0.05s, right?) Btw, I never had any hearable sound lag in U20 and U22, in both I used 0.10s without problems.

Also, like someone else wrote, BF1 engine sound is notably kinda out of sync within itself: shifts and TC sounds different, sometimes sharper sometimes softer. Seems like little parts of sound get lost and skipped at the edges of those sound blocks. I think same thing happens in all the cars, like when revs go down in next gear after flat shifting in RAC for example, just that is less noticable because BF1 sound is most complex and things change very quickly in it.

Other Problem that may be connected with the sound now being generated in a different thread:

I was racing in a grid of 10 people this morning, and on start I got massive FPS problems (3 FPS illepall) and sound was only hearable whenever a new frame became visible. It sounded a bit like when you TAB between cars quickly. This problem occured in all earlier patches as well, BUT there I had 15FPS on start, not 3.

System: 1,4GHz P4, R9800Pro, 1GB RAM, Onboard AC'97 Soundcard. Win XP SP2 + All Hotfixes till August 2006.

Quote from Scawen :

While I'm looking at that echo crackling bug, I'd really like to see if we can see any kind of pattern with those who experience SOUND LAG or SKIPPING when driving normally. Also I'd like to hear from anyone with Vista, if it does work well now (remember U20 sound did not work in Vista unless you put the Sound Lag up high).

So... the questions to answer :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

in windows vista32,

i get skipping and crackling really bad at sound blocks setting 2 when just driving any car on any track, but its bit better using settting 3, but 4 and 5 remove it completely , i just get cracking sound when close to barrier/sidewall

not sure if lag still there, been using really high sound lag settings for long time

using nf4 onboard sound,

Quote from Scawen :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

To fill up the form to make it more clear after trying bit more.

1) No sound lag (delay), occasional skipping/popping with Sound Blocks 1, much more so when viewing MP replays with lots of cars close in view
2) Yes, Sound Blocks 2 always works without any skipping/popping
3) Win XP SP1
4) Sound Blaster Live! with newest kX drivers (version 3573)

Quote from Scawen :

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info

1) In U21 and U22 yes, prior to U21 no.
2) No.
3) XP Pro w/SP2 32-bit.
4) SB Live! 24-bit; drivers v1.04.0055.

1) In U21 and U22 yes, prior to U21 no sound.
2) Somewhat. Crackling is severe when the Sound Blocks setting is at 1 or 2, but goes away at 3 or above. Lag manifests at all Sound Block setting values.
3) Vista 64-bit b5744 RC2
4) Realtek AC'97; drivers v6.14.465.00.

It seems MS still haven't sorted the DirectSound problems in Vista yet...just upgraded to RC2 (which just happened to remove the unlocked status from LFS, stoopid build numbers), and the pops and crackles described by everyone else on Vista are still there in U22.
Scawen, I don't think the problem truely lies in LFS's sound system...but in MS's current (rather buggy) DirectSound implementation. It has been like this since Beta 2, and I hope that they sort it before Vista gets released.

EDIT: With sound blocks set to 4 the problem seems to be solved, and the echo bug doesn't appear to be happening for me. No sound lag to be heard, strangely enough.

1. U20 (and all earlier versions) - never heard problems with sound (apart from when car boost is cranked up to 20, then it clips to hell).

Test on main PC

U22 does give crackling issues. When there is no echoing, everything is fine.
Echo boost at normal (for me, 1.3) - When close to a wall, some soft crackling is present from time to time (only seems to happen at certain rpm.
Echo boost maxed (3.0) - loads of crackling when close to a wall, quite loud now, with some break up (skipping).

Increasing the sound blocks may or may not help the problem, if it does the difference is subtle, but certainly does not cure it. If anything the crackling might be slower with a higher block setting.

3. OS: Windoze eXPletives
4. Sound card: M-Audio Delta Audiophile 2496, driver version 5.10.0.5052v3

Test on spare PC
Lots of crackling now and then using block setting of 1. 2 and above reduce it to a rarity.

3. OS: Windoze eXPletives
4. Sound card: nVidia nForce Internal Audio

First test on WinXP:
1.
U20: Everything is fine, I can use the lowest delay value (0.1s).
U21: Delay, no skipping.
U22: Delay with the default block setting (2), no skipping, crackling.
2. There is no delay with a block setting of 1, so the problem is solved. But now there is this crackling bug which seems to be related to the echo. You can adjust the volume of the crackling by changing the echo volume slider. It gets louder when driving close to a wall.
3. Win XP
4. MacBook Pro, Logitech USB Headset, SigmaTel Audio drivers (laptop speakers)

Small note: LFS freezes from time to time when trying to change the block settings in-game.

Second test on Vista:
1.
U20: A sound delay of 0.27s is needed to hear any sound, but then it's fine (except the 0,27 delay), no crackling
U21: Sound skippings (maybe delay as well, I'm not sure)
U22: Sound skippings with the default block setting (2)
2. With a block setting of 3 the skipping problem is solved. But there seems to be some delay now, no crackling.
3. Vista
4. Athlon XP 2400+, Logitech USB Headset

1) Do you get lag (delay when pressing throttle) or skipping (gaps in sound)
2) Can it be solved by changing Options/Misc/Sound Blocks setting
3) What operating system do you have, 98, XP, Vista32, Vista64
4) What hardware : sound card + drivers if you can find that info
------------------------------------------------------------------
1> yes using block level 1 or 2 (crackling skipping)
2> using 3 is fine in single player with full grid (will test online and with a larger grid soon ) , 4 + 5 work ok but the delay/lag is to large
3> testing on Vista64 (5600)
4> Realtek 850 codec (onboard nforce4 ultra) (using nvidia drivers version 6.14.465.0 (date 26/07/2005)

using u22 patch
*also i noticed in task manager , lfs is running using virtualisation process i disabled that and noticed increase in game framerates* sound remained same

Block=1 has no lag. I get what sounds like audio-clipping near the walls. Also some slight crackling during driving (easier to hear with lots of cars). That's not been an issue which had been caused by recent test-patches. I get that left/righ glitch too (near a wall).
I set PCI-latency to 32 (default is 64) in the BIOS because otherwise my Creative X-Fi would crackle all the time (in all games). Maybe that is a workaround.

Increasing Block increases lag.

I use Win XP 32Bit and a Creative X-Fi Extreme Music card (driver "5.12.18.1181"). I tried U22.


edit:
I found using the horn it's easier to notice sound-lag.

1. No when using block level 1.

Quote from GP4Flo :

2. In U22 there is no lag with a block setting of 1, so the problem is solved. But now there is this crackling bug which seems to be related to the echo. You can adjust the volume of the crackling by changing the echo volume slider. It gets louder when driving close to a wall.

3. Windows XP PRO SP2 (32-bit) + All Hotfixes

4. Creative SB Live! 5.1

Driver Provider: Creative
Version: 5.12.2.252 5.1
Date: 7/24/2002

Patch U20 worked fine with 0.10ms delay...

1) There's no lag or gaps. U20 worked with 0.10 ms sound lag. U22 sound crackles sometimes with 1 block. 2 blocks crackles only when driving beside wall.
2) Yes if set to 5 but sound lag is quite anoying then.
3) XP + all updates
4) SB Live! Value with latest drivers. "Creative Sound Blaster Live!, DR release 1.3.0". Windows Device Manager says that the driver version is 5.12.2.252