The online racing simulator
Mad Driving
1
(48 posts, started )
#1 - Setu
Mad Driving
I race superkarts in real life. I race LFS in the evenings, when I am not stripping the kart or putting children to bed. I have raced all over Britain on the long circuits, (Silverstone, Brands Hatch etc), within iches of other races at up to 150 mph. I (almost) never crash on the track, and I have won championships.

In LFS I crash frequently, and then someone insults me.

It seems that I have frequently been criticised recently in LFS races for wiping people out, when they are trying MAD manouevres.
For instance, overtaking through a chicane, (but not down the inside of the first corner, down the inside of the second). Going around the outside of someone through the first part of a chicane, and hoping to get down the inside of the second part of the chicane does not work. It never has and it never will, unless the car you are overtaking has only three wheels, and is meant to have four. If you try this in real life, you must be a nutter with a deathwish.

I am sorry, I am not looking in my mirrors for nutters with a deathwish. They try mad manoeuvres and then blame me. For instance having their nose level with my rear wheel when I turn in, but not lifting off. For instance, when I am being lapped, and I am keeping to the outside of the track and braking a little early, to give the leader a chance to get by down the inside, trying to pass me on the outside on the grass!

There is a general rule in racing, which is that the corner is only yours if you are level with the driver you are trying to overtake. This is not a 'made up' rule, it is common sense - if you aren't level, HE CAN'T SEE YOU. Remember that in a real car/kart, he is probably pulling three 'g's, changing gear, coping with a handling problem, wishing his neck didn't hurt so much and hoping that 'that' noise is not another expensive engine problem. He is not looking in his mirrors which vibrate so badly he can't see in them anyway, for your do-or-die attempt to retake 23rd place. In LFS he is probably talking on the phone, listening to some music and pouring a glass of wine as he tries to learn this new track.

Why are standards so bad? Because mostly the racers don't have to pay for crashed cars, and they can't get hurt, and they don't have to face anyone afterwards? Because nobody cares? Because there are lots of nine year olds who think that finishing fourth is too dull? I don't know.

So I am timid, and therefore slow, right? Sometimes. However, I nearly always finish, and I do OK through the first corner melee, and rarely take anyone else off through my own fault. I often start 10th, and finish the first lap 4th. This could be useful for the quicker drivers, so how can this be done?

I would suggest a few tips. Please comment on them, or add your own. Just don't call me names anymore, when you crash into me in some insane manoeuvre:

1) When following a slower car, pull aside as you enter the braking zone. He might be going slower because he brakes earlier.
2) Try to be slow in, quick out of corners. That way you overtake down the straights. Overtaking on the straights is good. Being alongside in a flat-out chicane is bad, unless you really know and trust the other driver, and you probably don't.
3) To finish first, you must first finish. The first two corners on cold tyres are taken much slower than normal. Even if the track is empty. More so when it's full of spinning idiots.
4) If there are yellow flags, assume that there just could be an accident around the corner.
5) If you see an accident, slow down a bit. The driver will probably move. Passing him at 135mph with 2 inches to spare might be risky. It's your race you will lose.
6) Try to be right on the inside going into the first corner. Go a little slower if necessary. Cars spin outwards, therefore you can get by down the inside.
7) Remember net lag! You and the driver along side are reacting about a second apart. You only look like you are racing together.
8) Give him more room than you would on the road. He probably needs it.

If you want to see how a real "I might die if I get this wrong" driver is, see Youtube and search for "Isle of man in a superkart". How many of you would have followed for several laps like he did, looking for the right moment to get by? Of course you wouldn't, you would have rammed him, and then blamed him afterwards for not looking in his mirrors, right?

Setu.

All of the above 'him's probably apply equally to 'her's. It's just impossible to tell on the internet.

P.S. I thought of one extra suggestion. It's a bit wordy, but worth reading, maybe. It took me a while to realise this one in real life, and may never occur to people in sims. It's about when you are at the end of a long straight, and you can see the guy just behind you, and you hit the brakes in a long "6th gear down to 2nd gear" type of braking zone. If he pulls out and tries to outbrake you - you must leave him room.
This is why. If you have got similar cars, and you've got a good setup and you've got your braking perfect, it should be impossible to brake significantly later than you just have, and still manage to stop in time for the corner. If your braking is perfectly on the threshold, then if you brake any harder you will lock up, and if you brake less, you will not slow down enough. However, you know he did brake later than you, and if he had the slipstream he braked from a higher speed. Therefore, you know he can't make the apex. Don't turn in as normal, maybe even ease off the brakes slightly, go deeper before turning in, give him a bit of room and he will probably shoot past in front of you with all four wheels locked. Then you can take a later apex, get more power down and repass him on the exit. Of course there always a few people who have the infuriating ability to still make the corner, and overtake you, but if they are that good, let them go, follow and learn.
Your always going to get idiots on some public servers. Try and find a couple of servers with people you know drive well, or even better join a league or single event (then your guaranteed a good race)
I had number 2 going on just yesterday, I said to him: what kind of a nut tries to overtake in that kinda corner?? First he said sorry, afterwards he was like: Yea, but I didn't think you would keep pushing while I was about to pass you... I was less than a second behind on the guy in front of me, should I give up on that position? I don't think so, but this guy thought I would, so we both ended up in the grass.
#4 - Woz
There are a lot of LFS players that have no concept of real racing rules and do not understand that at times in racing you have to yield if you do not have the right to the corner.

You just have to find the right group of people to race with. You can have great bumper to bumper multi-lap fights in LFS but they are rare on public servers unless the rest of the people on the server are serious.

This is why the hardcore more thread keeps coming up, it is an attempt to replace the CRC (Clean racing club) of old which hosted servers for people that were known to understand how to race.

Current agreement on hardcore has things like no mid race join, no reset car or jump to pits etc. All the sort of thing that puts of the casual racer and will attract the more serious racer.

The other cause is the common race length of 5 laps or less. People think they have no time to win so push too hard. We need to move to get race lengths up to 10 lap or more to stop the madness.

I blame GT3/4, PGR and the like for making bumper car racing the norm for the younger crowd. In these there is no penalty for crashing and it then becomes a valid move in the game in you take the inside line and use the other car to slow you and allow you to make the turn.
^ It's the only way to win in those games I tried driving seriously in those games, but you just can't keep doing it, mostly because the AI is too stupid to get out of your way, and just bump into you every corner
hey m8 in irl we have superkarts to there so quick down mondello 160 mph we call them 250s
I actually think the general standard of LFS racers are quite good, compared to other games I've played.
Awesome Setu, some very good points put in there indeed.

I'll definetly be keeping those advices and questions stuck in my head. Would be a good way to remind myself when I race on go-karting or doing driving experiences in Knockhill.
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(thisnameistaken) DELETED by thisnameistaken
#9 - Calum
:)
All really good points from Setu and I agree with as much of it as I read ( sorry I just kinda checked out all the other posts too )

Quote :There are a lot of LFS players that have no concept of real racing rules and do not understand that at times in racing you have to yield if you do not have the right to the corner

at times you have to yield full stop.

When genuine incidents / accidents occur in LFS , and naturally the yellow flag goes up , " half speed " and " no overtaking " go straight out the window , everyone keeps racing , and its not often , but it does happen , that folk who are actually pretty fast will turn the corner to find a stationary or slow moving car on track , and cause a further incident trying to avoid , then blame the car that had the incident ! even when they came speeding round during a yellow.

but I do think most of them are not sure of all the rules of real racing , like has been mentioned in this topic most posts. I do also think however , that total mofo's can be found online as well , and thats unfortunate.

Calum
Good way to make people slow down: A 15 second timer (to give some room), in that time you have to slow down to pit lane speed, and if you don't, you get a warning, second time you get black flag.

More difficult would be, what cars can you take over and how can you take over if your speed is restricted. Somehow there should be a system which marks who's behind, and let them be able to race at a slightly higher speed. I'm not quite sure about this rule, but you are allowed to take over and drive just a little faster when you're behind, no? Or does that only apply in case of a pace car?
There is no such rule anywhere in the world to decellerate to pit lane speed if there's a yellow flag up, so that's out... The only way to achieve people slowing down is by monitoring their splits/positions when a yellow flag occurs... If they time a new best split or pass more than the car(s) involved in the incident while driving under yellow, they'll get penalised... But such a system is very hard to almost impossible to implement, and even then, other variables would remain to make that system 100% reliable...
I think that improved engine and suspension damage, along with bursting radiators and the like would go a long way towards improving the driving standards. People wouldn't be so gung-ho to overtake in a risky corner if they knew they wouldn't be able to drive away afterwards. You shouldn't be able to drive head-on into a tire barrier or armco, then just back up and continue on your merry way.
Sticky!
Quote from Cue-Ball :I think that improved engine and suspension damage, along with bursting radiators and the like would go a long way towards improving the driving standards. People wouldn't be so gung-ho to overtake in a risky corner if they knew they wouldn't be able to drive away afterwards. You shouldn't be able to drive head-on into a tire barrier or armco, then just back up and continue on your merry way.

The same thing that was said before S2: "people will drive more carefully whent here are consequenses to deal with". Bollocks!

Some people will always try those suicide moves, and these people are the sole reason why I don't race the FOX@AS2 or FOX&SO1. It is just massacre. Of course I want engine damage, bursting radiators and all the realistic damage stuff but I don't expect it to have any effect on the nut ones. Or maybe it will cut down the totally unrealistic driving style on some places (like the chicanes on fern bay, mentioned kazillion (10e4359) times) but still...
I'm not really surprised of any lack of driving / racing skills. LFS is a game (sue me ) which doesn't require anything that would ensure better skill than in RL, so there's bound to be clueless and less experienced drivers. One couldn't really expect someone who has never raced in RL to be a pro "out-of-the-box"
I agree that there will always be some who try the suicide moves. It happens in real life and it will happen in a sim. However; at the very least the people who try this would get SOME sort of punishment if the game had better damage modeling. As it is now they can generally continue driving without a problem even after plowing straight through a tire barrier.

I wasn't around for S1 so I don't know about this "solution" being proposed then. However; I do know that damage hasn't really gotten any better since S1. Some would argue it's even worse now since it takes quite a bit of over-revving to get even minimal engine damage. I think that server side controls, engine stalling, and engine/suspension/tire damage need to be the biggest priorities for development. IMO, these are the three things that will increase the realism the most and, in turn, make racing more realistic and intense.
nice write up once i get more time i'll read over it more carefully
#18 - Gunn
Quote from Setu :
Why are standards so bad? Because mostly the racers don't have to pay for crashed cars, and they can't get hurt, and they don't have to face anyone afterwards? Because nobody cares? Because there are lots of nine year olds who think that finishing fourth is too dull? I don't know.

You are competing against people who generally have limited knowledge about racedraft, rules and codes of conduct. Some of them also lack common sense, but you get that anywhere you go. On a public server there is never any assurance that your fellow competitors will know how to race cleanly and fairly. You may need to join a league, team or club to have the opportunity to regularly have good clean races. There is no real answer to this problem on public servers. Sure we can try to educate people, but you'll never reach them all and newcomers appear every day.
Please don't lose heart, there are plenty of people who enjoy a proper race and show mutual respect. Hope to see you on the track. :up:
Setu, I feel your pain. One of the many difficulties in fixing this problem is that the people you are complaining about generally don't frequent the forums. "We", meaning forum readers, probably weren't the ones calling you names and trying crazy passing moves in the first place.
#20 - Woz
The only real solution is to improve the current driving test system so that it rams home race rules and that you HAVE to pass the race rules test BEFORE you can go online.

At least noobs will have to read about race rules and pass the test to get online. It might not help once they get there but at least its a step in the right direction.

Lets face it, you need a race licence before you can race IRL.
...and lots of LFS racers don't even have a street license.

I think having a race test based on the FIA rules regarding passing & flags, etc (a relatively quick & simple one, these are gamers we're dealing with after all, but something that covers the basics ) would be a great addition. Then, noone would have the excuse of ignorance after they get flamed for causing a pile-up. True, ignorance really isn't any excuse for a lack of common sense, but throughout human history rules have been implemented precisely because many people don't have common sense at all. Although passing the tests could be made optional, perhaps a server option to only allow drivers who have passed the test would be welcome. It would encourage people to pass the tests if they wanted to join a particular server or team. I guess the testing wouldn't need to take up more than a half hour of your life (if you're good enough to pass first time).

Hell, Gran Turismo won't even let you race the AI without jumping through a few hoops
#22 - Woz
Quote from Hankstar :...and lots of LFS racers don't even have a street license.

I think having a race test based on the FIA rules regarding passing & flags, etc (a relatively quick & simple one, these are gamers we're dealing with after all, but something that covers the basics ) would be a great addition. Then, noone would have the excuse of ignorance after they get flamed for causing a pile-up. True, ignorance really isn't any excuse for a lack of common sense, but throughout human history rules have been implemented precisely because many people don't have common sense at all. Although passing the tests could be made optional, perhaps a server option to only allow drivers who have passed the test would be welcome. It would encourage people to pass the tests if they wanted to join a particular server or team. I guess the testing wouldn't need to take up more than a half hour of your life (if you're good enough to pass first time).

Hell, Gran Turismo won't even let you race the AI without jumping through a few hoops

Exactly, but why optional. If it only takes 30 mins for most sane people and it is logged on your LFS account you will never have to re-take the test if you re-install etc so there is no hardship.

Lets face it all current people that are serious racers should walk any test and if someone can't pass the test then why let them online if it means they will cause chaos.

The goals do not need to be difficult, they just need to ram home the message that there are rules to racing that you have to follow at all times.

BTW, we still don't know how the current test system will pan out in S2 final yet. It might be you have to pass the tests for a car before you can drive it at all. Remember that in S1 you had to unlock cars with credits.
A very nice and sensible post Setu. This community needs drivers like you are


And what about separate licenses for road cars, single seaters and the GTRs? And even the subclasses like S1 which would let you drive the MRT5 (S2 for the FOX and so on) that may be not the most realistic but it can be a way to prevent new drivers jumping into the BF1 and ruining races (not on purpose maybe but still the result is the same.. )
Public-Racing can be a pain in every racing-game.

But the biggest problems are on servers with:
Cars: GTR´s
Track: As-National
Qualy: no
Laps: 5
join Midrace: yes

If you wanna better racing, search for servers with better settings.
And find a league, that fit to you.
Special in the smaller leagues, you find better racing. Ppl know each other, and respect each other.
Even many teams have own challanges, and they only allow ppl, they saw racing, and saw they are fair racers, who break before they crash another driver.

Much written in bad english, and all i wanna say is:
Stay away from the public-servers, and you will get more fun and less trouble.
Quote from Sven Menkhoff :
Stay away from the public-servers, and you will get more fun and less trouble.

not always true, I had some of the best and closest battles on public servers.

The problem is imho that people who are new to this game go just straight to the coolest looking (which are also the fastest) cars and join a server. Therefore you'll find huge differences on the "faster" servers.

Something else:
why is everyone driving as national with the gtrs???
I have been practicing as grand touring for the last week, and spend most evenings alone driving (which sucks btw)...
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Mad Driving
(48 posts, started )
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