I have a decent speaker setup, but I find I'm quicker, I drive more consistently, and I can concetrate better when I've got headphones on... I seem to pick up on subtleties better than with the speakers, and they evidently make a difference :cyclops:

I haven't tried CSR tho, so maybe this is off-topic.

Quote from Gunn :

These small gains make a difference, at least in being consistently fast over the entire race. The reason seems to be that better information feedback allows better reactions and better timing which in turn may lead to faster lap times or less misjudgements.

So for me sound does make a difference.

This is true, but the CSR mod is not accurate at all, and most sounds are not true to how the engine would really be performing as done with LFS's basic synthesized sounds. This is the whole reason why the devs have used this sound engine too as far as I know. Because it is accurate and doesn't have any cutting where sound is the most important. The CSR mod keeps sounds way too steady and out of sync, and while it may sound good, it is a bad representation of what the car is actually doing. Because the sounds are played through your car's speed and not through true transmission and wheel feedback, you don't hear when then diff loosens or locks up, you don't know how much your car is affected from friction in a high-speed corner, and so on. Those are important at least for being a fast driver and staying in control or knowing what your car is doing. And CSR doesn't give that kind of feedback.

If it did give such feedback, I still don't think it would make me faster, it would just sound better, but with the same amount of desired auditory feedback I always have had with the basic sound engine we have now. But I honestly think that most fast drivers would agree that, for the most part, driving quick has to do with the feel of the car, and sounds are purely background noises or helpful cues at certain points (like for shifting). With a helmet and earplugs on, most drivers just have a humm when driving, and cannot hear much, it's all in the feel in order to be at a super fast pace... and sounds are just cues that most drivers often 'tune' out. With a simulation, it just adds to making the drive feel a bit more real.

Quote from Goop :

I have a decent speaker setup, but I find I'm quicker, I drive more consistently, and I can concetrate better when I've got headphones on... I seem to pick up on subtleties better than with the speakers, and they evidently make a difference

I haven't tried CSR tho, so maybe this is off-topic.

Yeah, with a good set of headphones, things are 'closer' and combined better. Besides, LFS really only supports left/right channels, so having my nice speaker set for surround sound isn't all that useful, just super loud and rumbly Which is yet again just the excitement/immersion factor that can make you feel 'connected'.

Quote from Tweaker :

I honestly think that most fast drivers would agree that, for the most part, driving quick has to do with the feel of the car, and sounds are purely background noises or helpful cues at certain points (like for shifting). With a helmet and earplugs on, most drivers just have a humm when driving, and cannot hear much, it's all in the feel in order to be at a super fast pace... and sounds are just cues that most drivers often 'tune' out. With a simulation, it just adds to making the drive feel a bit more real.

I can't agree with that, obviously I use the audible feedback more than you do. In the absence of G forces, bumps, and the sensation of shifting weight, every bit of feedback adds to one's ability to pilot the car around a track. How can you refer to the engine revs as something that drivers tune out? It's a part of the overall feel too. You can bet that GTR drivers would be faster if they could determine the engine's behaviour in real time. The FFB in LFS combined with the dynamic sound is a package that doesn't exist successfully elsewhere and is surely one are that makes LFS superior.
I'm a bit surprised that you discount the value of the sound feedback so flippantly.

Well, i was a huge fan of LFS syntethic sound, and i still am.. but after hearing these samples, you really can't turn your head.
As you said Tweak.. good racers doesn't rely that much on the sound but on the feel of the car.. but why does car lovers and enthusiast so much love when the car sound good.. Are you watching Fifth gear for instance.. it's the first thing they check... how the car sounds.. And when the car sounds good, it gives you the chills... the adrenalin pumps up..
So, as i said, now i have the will to drive FZR, which i hated before..
I loved LX's but boy am i in love in the LX6 all over again now.. It gives you that chills when you rev it in the garage.. I don't get that with LFS sounds.. And I AM driving RWD better now, because i have more respect to the car, i FEEL the horses running in there.. I feel like a pharmer..
I really can live with the slightly les inofmative samples, because i rely on the force feeback, and sound is there to pump my adrenalin, and make me love the car i am driving.. respecting it..
So... bottom line, i'm really not that sure is the synthetised sounds the right way to go.. In the perfect world it would be just like in the real car, the real sound with the real feedback, but i don't think that's possible..

Quote from Tweaker :

With a helmet and earplugs on, most drivers just have a humm when driving, and cannot hear much, it's all in the feel in order to be at a super fast pace...

Yes, but RL drivers have a G-forces...

@ tweak , you should try doing things with earplugs in for 168 hours, or better stilll glue your fingers together and to the wheel for a month also.

that will make you faster for sure, as its all about feel of the car.illepall

Do you have any IDEA how important your ears are at all.

Quote from Gunn :

I can't agree with that, obviously I use the audible feedback more than you do. In the absence of G forces, bumps, and the sensation of shifting weight, every bit of feedback adds to one's ability to pilot the car around a track. How can you refer to the engine revs as something that drivers tune out? It's a part of the overall feel too. You can bet that GTR drivers would be faster if they could determine the engine's behaviour in real time. The FFB in LFS combined with the dynamic sound is a package that doesn't exist successfully elsewhere and is surely one are that makes LFS superior.
I'm a bit surprised that you discount the value of the sound feedback so flippantly.

@Gunn and AL:

With this CSR mod I think the value of the sound is terrible. The sound in LFS is what I said would be 'godlike' if you could use it in reallife (read above). Because if you could hear JUST what we hear in LFS, that would be the best. However with all the added effects and imprecise sounds of the CSR mod, one could say that it doesn't help at all, other than making the you and the driver feel like you're driving a proper race car of some sort.

But judging sounds in LFS (for me) is just learning the shifting points at high pitches, but nowadays I rarely use that because I have a RPM gauge to visually tell me when to shift. As I said, hearing the differential in action is another important part that CSR doesn't emulate at all, and that is what I am trying to explain here... those kinds of useful cues ONLY in LFS current sound engine that CSR cannot create (and not to mention that CSR is lagged a bit). I am not saying that LFS sounds are completely useless, that's the complete opposite. CSR is an unfinished, and limited sound mod based on the cars velocity, and for someone to say it can make you quicker just sounds strange to me. That is the whole point of this thread, and what I argue against.

EDIT: And if you somehow think the feel of the car at the limit in LFS is not the most useful part to being a fast driver, then I guess that is your driving style I mean, LFS simulates the feel of the car like no other simulation, it is the only reason why I can be quite fast in this game versus other simulations. Sound is icing on the cake for me. Heck, when you choose a simulation, don't you want to feel the car in the best possible way??? That is how we base our judgements on picking a good simulation afterall......

Quote from Tweaker :

EDIT: And if you somehow think the feel of the car at the limit in LFS is not the most useful part to being a fast driver, then I guess that is your driving style I mean, LFS simulates the feel of the car like no other simulation, it is the only reason why I can be quite fast in this game versus other simulations.

Where are you getting that comment from? Are we now discussing what is the most useful part to being a fast driver or are we still going to talk about the ability of sound to effect your lap times?

Quote from Tweaker :

and for someone to say it can make you quicker just sounds strange to me. That is the whole point of this thread, and what I argue against...

It makes you ENJOY the car. No one said that these samples gives better feedback, they don't.
I couldn't stand FZR before.. i mean, what is that, what feedback does that sound gives me.. OK, it gives proper feedback, but of what kind of engine?? Of the Vespa Piaggio??
It gives the feedback, but it doesn't sound like you are driving that monster of the car, i am not connected with the car at all.. I don't feel it's power.. All i see is the steering wheel and the dashboard, i don't see the bad ass look of the FZR from the inside, so something must tell me what car i am driving. I didn't feel the thrill driving it.. that's what i am trying to say.. it gives you the perfect feeback, i don't deny that.. but that feedback doesn't sound like a powerfull car...
I feel the forces through the wheel, but that forces can't make me go "woaa... this thing is fast.. i gotta slow down.." .... that is the sounds job to tell you..

Saying the sound is useful is not the same as saying you can drive with your eyes closed and rely on the sound as your primary source of information! It's just saying that the sound is providing information that you find useful and helps with driving... I don't see why there's even an argument here. If you don't find sound useful, that's okay, if you do then great. Personally I find it makes a difference and that I want all the feedback I can get. In real life autoxing with my helmet on I mostly hear windnoise and the tyres I race on don't make any noise most of the time anyway, so I am relying mostly on the g-forces. However in LFS I definitely appreciate the sound.

the sounds are a big part of what gives me 'the feel' for the car, for the limit... maybe i rely on it more than most ?
For eg.
Visuals: 40
FFB: 30
Sound: 30

I know I couldn't drive a decent time without sound; i honestly wouldn't weight it much less than visuals bearing in mind I'm referring to feeling the limit, not navigation

Quote from Gunn :

Where are you getting that comment from? Are we now discussing what is the most useful part to being a fast driver or are we still going to talk about the ability of sound to effect your lap times?

Nevermind then, I fail to get my message across, as it is all over the place. All I say is, that CSR shouldn't make you a faster driver, that is all I have to say. And the poor sound represented in the CSR mod just confuses me and doesn't give good feedback in order to be fast. And being a faster driver and better lap times is the same thing, why do you think I am seperating the two?

I think too many people can agree or disagree on this subject, because it is personal style and what one pays attention to while driving. Yet now I am the evildoer in this thread because somehow people are so infatuated with an innacurate sound mod that they think they are going faster because of it :rolleyes: And Gunn, this is about the mod, you still haven't even taken that into consideration from the looks of it.

I agree Michael.
EDIT: But Fordman is saying CSR is making a difference. And the feedback it gives it not that great, just quality is better, and at the same time inaccurate. I'd rather have LFS's sounds sound better along with its precision (I prefer that for driving fast and knowing what the car is doing), than relying on a sound mod that isn't telling me what is going on very well.

Any of you guys see what I mean? CSR is just sound effects and wow factor. While LFS is currently a better source of feedback, which is easy to argue against when suggesting "CSR is better and should make you faster".

So in my summary. I said to Fordman that CSR doesn't make you faster.... and the reason for that comment is because it cancels out a lot of the sounds you need that the current LFS sound engine has... and I fail to see why having a mod that doesn't represent the car as well as LFS does by default should make you faster.

I don't know the word for it, but driving a new PB can happen to anyone, and just because Fordman was using the CSR mod at the time he got a new PB, doesn't mean CSR helped him. If I listened to polka music while driving online, and got a new pb, am I going to come on here and say "Hey everyone, LISTEN TO POLKA!!!! IT MAKES YOU FASTER!!!!"

(bolded for a reason)

Quote from Boris Lozac :

So, as i said, now i have the will to drive FZR, which i hated before..
I loved LX's but boy am i in love in the LX6 all over again now.. It gives you that chills when you rev it in the garage.. I don't get that with LFS sounds.. And I AM driving RWD better now, because i have more respect to the car, i FEEL the horses running in there.. .

Odd. I just loaded it up. Lastest version i believe. and No LX Sounds Changed!

Any advice?

Quote from srdsprinter :

Odd. I just loaded it up. Lastest version i believe. and No LX Sounds Changed!

Any advice?

There are custom sounds to add in the "unoficiall addons" and some in the Carsound remixer thread..

I must be a bit too blunt in my perceptions to get in touch with what the differential's trying to tell me. When it comes to shifting gears though the sampled sounds do just fine.. you just familiarize yourself with the pitch over time. Failing that, you've got a handy red button. And the sampled sounds do sound better but it's just a shame the mod's not very well integrated at the moment. Interesting experiment though...

Quote from Tweaker :

And Gunn, this is about the mod, you still haven't even taken that into consideration from the looks of it.

If you say so...

Quote from Tweaker :

Any of you guys see what I mean? CSR is just sound effects and wow factor. While LFS is currently a better source of feedback, which is easy to argue against when suggesting "CSR is better and should make you faster".

I see what you mean, but can you answer on my last post(not the one telling where are the new sounds).. read the post good and see what i want to say there..

Not being rude or anything, but I have a hard time what you are trying to explain in your post Boris (language barrier). Something about enjoyment versus feel or something? I know what you mean, we already mentioned that CSR helps you enjoy the car on the first page of this thread

But read my post above this, and my last bold point. That is why I think this thread is such a wierd discussion to begin with.

Maybe another time I'll wait till Fordman posts that he saw the devs online for a second time and raced with them!!! illepall

Quote from Tweaker :

Any of you guys see what I mean? CSR is just sound effects and wow factor. While LFS is currently a better source of feedback, which is easy to argue against when suggesting "CSR is better and should make you faster".

yeah, but the topic drifted a bit You seemed to suggest that sound, whether you have CSR running or not, plays little part in driving quickly.

Quote from Tweak :

But I honestly think that most fast drivers would agree that, for the most part, driving quick has to do with the feel of the car, and sounds are purely background noises or helpful cues at certain points (like for shifting) <snip>... and sounds are just cues that most drivers often 'tune' out.

And so we come back to the original question:

Quote from Fordman :

Now I ask you all, Does sounds "really" make that much of a difference and if SCA and co changed the sounds, would the WR times come down at a major rate?

Quote from Gunn :

And so we come back to the original question:

Quote from Fordman :

Now I ask you all, Does sounds "really" make that much of a difference and if SCA and co changed the sounds, would the WR times come down at a major rate?

Yes, making you feel connected to the car better with proper sounds that are accurate could add to the enjoyment. But what else could we add that would really benefit to driving faster? What other crucial sounds could be added?

And to get a WR is a combination of sound and everything else with your senses. What we have now gives us all we need (engine pitch, tire scrub, chassis impacts, etc), but how much different could it be if LFS sounded extremely realistic? Maybe for those who cannot lap fast enough would be in luck, as it helps them more? Because LFS and the car you are using can only go so fast provided with your skills and setup.

If LFS were to suddenly have way better sounds at this stage, I still don't think world records would be any faster than what we have now. People would just drive as they always have, but what else could help someone become faster? Transmisison whine, and all those other special effects aren't as useful as hearing the throttle at different ranges. LFS currently has the basics for all you'd need. All that is left is special effects to make it sound better. So I don't think there would be much of a change, other than how much you are enjoying the ride with such a nice sounding car

(And this is my reasoning for saying CSR couldn't make you faster, plus the fact that it is inaccurate)

Whenever I play LFS muted, I can hear the sounds in my head! illepall

Quote :

Whenever I play LFS muted, I can hear the sounds in my head! illepall

...

All I can say is, Tweak, I understand completely what you are saying and agree as well.

I tried the sound mod, at least a while ago anyways. I tried it in the FZR. I felt so disconnected with the car. The sound mod was just so lagging compared to what was happening to the car. It also sounded too "busy" for lack of a better word. There was too much noise and no feedback. It also sounded faster than I was actually driving which also added to the lost connection to the car. I'm not sure how to explain it. It was like because of the sound, I'm banging up through the gears not realizing I'm not even taking the revs up to the proper shift point because the sound accellerated faster than the car.

Yes sound matters. It matters that it is precise as it is in LFS first, then that it sounds good. Good sound without the precision and accuracy is just noise.

Quote from Tweaker :

Not being rude or anything, but I have a hard time what you are trying to explain in your post Boris (language barrier). Something about enjoyment versus feel or something? I know what you mean, we already mentioned that CSR helps you enjoy the car on the first page of this thread

But read my post above this, and my last bold point. That is why I think this thread is such a wierd discussion to begin with.

Ok, i know that my english is not that good.. but i think you can see what i mean.
I saw the bolded part of your post, and i see what are u trying to say, but i am also telling you that the effect Fordman is explaining(driving faster because of CSR) is possible, because he like that car more than before, and he is faster in it..
Exactly as in my case.. Hated the FZR with default sounds, rarely drived it, didn't have the will to chase some PB's, or whatever, just hated the car, and because of that, i can't be fast in it, i don't enjoy driving it..
With new sounds, different situation.. i finally hear the power of FZR, i am more gentle with the throtlle, getting more thrills while driving it, and all of that combined = i am FASTER in it..