I have been releasing sound packs for use with CSR but I still believe LFS's own sound engine is the future way to go. It just needs some time spent developing it further. Once it has transmission, backfire and brake squeal it will be more immersive than any other sim IMO.

The main problem with the syth'd engine sound is that its too 'regular' sounding. I don't believe it really simulates the engine of a car to create the sound. I think it just plays a single wave at engine frequency with a simple reverb and EQ model.

If the engine sound model simulated stuff like ignition timing advance and exhaust backpressure the sound would be much more authentic. They could also add real time back fire sounds based on calculation of the amount of unburnt fuel in the exhaust. These are actually fairly simple calculations (for a modern CPU) and the formulas needed are printed in many automotive textbooks.

Moving on to the main point, "does CSR make a difference?", I would say it makes no difference for drivers who are fast anyway. However for less experienced simmers there is no doubt in my mind that the added 'immersion factor' must help inspire some people to drive more like they would in real life and hence faster laptimes.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

That's great and all, but to be honest- I don't really hear anything with the standard sounds that isn't just a (perhaps slightly duel) tone going up and down, mediated by the throttle. The 'pressures, resonances and plethora of other factors' must be getting lost on me somewhere there. It's hardly 'dynamic'. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, I'm just trying to work things out and get to the bottom of why people think the CSR system is so hopelessly inaccurate.

I could always tell what the engine was doing with the generated sounds... I knew when to shift, I knew if I had turbo pressure, I knew when I should downshift because the revs where under the powerband, I could even tell if I was in a higher gear or in a lower gear just by listening to the engine! I can't do any of this with the sampled sounds... They are so dead, so uninformative... So much worse than LfS' generated sounds...

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Well I'd heard that it's generated but never looked into it. They never seemed to have a lot of "character", but overall sound was pretty good IIRC (haven't played it for ages). I find LFS's more informative TBH but then partial throttle isn't really something that occurs a lot in RBR

But if they are generated then it shows that a generated sound can still have some "rawness" appeal when barreling along full throttle. If they're not generated, then it doesn't show that

I wouldn't bet my balls on this but it's not because there are engine sound files that you can edit. Though it's only one longer .eng file per car and when you open them in audio editor the volume curve (or whatever it's called) looks weird, so it might be that it's using some different kind of sampling system or something. I don't know but I will believe it's not generated until someone proves me wrong. For me RBR's default sounds are bit lousy and I've been using sound mods for ages. Though modern WRC car sounds like crap, even in real life.

i am a total convert to the CSR program now

i tested it out quickly last night, and found in the FXR i couldn't hear the tyres screaching or some other noises, people don't like change, they get comfortable and when something new comes along they cry

so i thought i would give it a go, i lowered the master volume on the CSR program to 7, switched off the annoying fuel warning sound, and that was it.

did a few laps with the AI cars to see if pitspotter was still working, all fine, so i venture out onto the conedodgers server.
start from the back, first few laps i am a little sketchy, i always find my first race or so of the day is crap.

second race, i am starting from 6th on the grid (i think) anyway i REALLY start getting into the game, things are "flowing" better for me.

3rd race, i am bloody flying, second position for most of the race, there is only 2 of us with FXR`s we are smoking the other cars, i was loving it, down to T1 hard on the brakes, the brakes squeel, the engine is backfiring a little bit, BANG, BANG down the gears, drivetrain whines, halfway round the corner, power ON, turbo spooling up, drivetrain whine getting faster and faster, AWESOME.

set myself a new PB of 1.43.63 (IIRC) i had not even driven this track until a 2 weeks back

next race same again, i come 3rd or 4th fastest FXR driver, the rest, them bloody FZR`s

much better results for me, and i have had a few beers

Quote from Misko :

What I find cool about CSR since it uses OutGauge for input is that, if you could get the sensors on your real car on throttle and brake pedal positions, rpm and speedo gauges, you could hook it up with CSR on a laptop and drive your real (bad sounding) car with the sound of anything you wanted (meaty powerful engine) on your cars sound system or headphones. How strange and disconnected would that feel.

rofl

First off thanks to Yama-T and all concerned for this new sound Mod.
I like it a lot LFS for me Is much better with it.

John

Quote :

I could always tell what the engine was doing with the generated sounds... I knew when to shift, I knew if I had turbo pressure, I knew when I should downshift because the revs where under the powerband, I could even tell if I was in a higher gear or in a lower gear just by listening to the engine! I can't do any of this with the sampled sounds... They are so dead, so uninformative... So much worse than LfS' generated sounds...

Sorry, but I just can't accept (for now ) that this information isn't available with the CSR program. I really think that the engine, whether CSR or regular, is just going through variations in pitch, that the pitch is the 'message', and that both systems are outputting the same message.

I guess the difference is.. in the sampled system, the spectrum of pitch variation is handled by a limited number of wavs, which each cover a certain range in frequency. So, with CSR (for now), there's a wav for the very low frequencies, one for the low, one for medium and one for high. In the standard synth version however, I imagine (it sounds like) it's all just one sound, for the whole range. Which-ever method does it for you more- whether it's the smoother but more regular sounding standard synth version, or the meatier, more textured sampled version, the message is still there, being expressed by pitch. I'll concede- maybe in the sampled system it's obscured slightly due to the texture differences as the pitch ascends through the different wavs, plus there's also the added road noise or brakesqueal to deal with, but in no way is the sound 'uninformative', it's there if you want to hear it...

If you stripped everything else back, and compared the two engines directly, side by side, I'm pretty sure you'd get the same information out of each system.

Sound could make some people faster. The adreniline rush could be a psychological motivator for some people. I wonder how things go for people after a week or two of using the new sounds.

I think you'd have to have some room for improvement, in order for the sound to motivate you into going dramatically faster. There's certainly a finite amount of improvement one can make with a given physics package. Someone who's right on the edge already probably isn't going to gain 2 seconds a lap.

I haven't tried the sound mod. I do have better results when I can cleary hear the sounds ( i.e. at a nice volume level) as opposed to having them low or off. I think the default engine sounds provide good feedback, but I would not be upset if they were improved, either.

I'm faster with my shoe mod. sans shoes, that is.

I think the majority here that dismiss CSR are being just blind fan boys...
I mean, you can hear clearly that both sound sources are playing simultaneously(at least Yama's FZR, and one or two LX6 mods)... Just listen, and crank up the LFS volume to the max, and listen how they play in the same way.. It's not like there is some lag, so i am getting fake informations from the CSR... i wouldn't use it if that was the case..
The only thing that bothers me, is, if i turn down the LFS sounds, than i also loose the tyre sound, not completely, but it is not hearable as i would want it..

I've just tested the CSR mod, I loved the sound of the car but when I started to drive I felt like is was another game, and i am not lying, but it felt like gtr2! maybe it could be because I don't have a FF wheel so I mainly get my info from the sound and graphics,and as hard as I tryed i couldn't avoid spinning when downshifting. Maybe it's because i haven't played LFS for a while, but i doubt that =/

The sound just doen't feel right to me, don't ask me why, i dont know.

I tried CSR in the FOX last night, at a track I know far too well... Blackwood I found it difficult to tell what the dif was doing (out of turn one, in particular); the fidelity was lacking and although I have the two mixed quite well, it felt like I was handicapping myself by muffling the important bits.

I turned it off pretty quickly. Perhaps if the FOX samples were more convincing, I might give it more of a go... :cyclops:

I find CSR with the lx6 brilliant. I have the CSR volume set to 1 though, so the LFS sounds still figure, all mixes quite well imho... don't feel at all handicapped by it.

Of course sound can make one faster, well kind of as human beings we are quite easily affected by feelings and if we hear something that motivates us we get little extra capasity of doing things, that means in LFS that we go faster for example.

Naturally ppl are different and effects are different, but big lines stay quite well same type, some shops for example are using this to get certain products selled.

But if you really don't like what CSR does, that may even put your times down quite a bit

Quote from Blowtus :

I find CSR with the lx6 brilliant. I have the CSR volume set to 1 though, so the LFS sounds still figure, all mixes quite well imho... don't feel at all handicapped by it.

I think that is the important thing about CSR. If I turn up the csr volume I have the same problems as have been described above. When turn it down to 1 I can still hear the LFS engine and skids (the important stuff) plus the extra 'ear candy' like gear shifts and turbo spools.

To say it makes me faster would be a bit of a long shot - but it atleast it adds something to make the sound in LFS a bit more gutsy. If anything though I think this program has shown us just how good the LFS sounds are in their current state.

I think part of Tweak's point (sorry mate if this wrong, to many long posts for me to read ) is that the CSR mod has more of a placebo effect

can you call it placebo effect if you end up with faster times as a result??

Quote from Rotary :

I think part of Tweak's point (sorry mate if this wrong, to many long posts for me to read ) is that the CSR mod has more of a placebo effect

Well, but it doesn't have a placebo effect. If you think of what the placebo effect actually is, you'd realise that this comparison doesn't make sense

It has a psychological effect, if that's what you tried to say. Of course CSR doesn't provide more, or more accurate info than the original LFS sounds, nor does it magically give your car more hp. But it helps certain people to get into the flow of the car, and PB's usually fall when you're zoning out. If the in some cases downright painful LFS sounds keep you from entering that zone, then it severely hinders the ability to drive good laptimes. And that exactly is the case, where the sound does make a difference.

Hi All,

First of all, Let me take back that comment about Americans etc etc. I have American family, it was ment as tounge in check, and I said it, as that was the answer I was expecting from Tweak. Hense why I hung around after posting, awaiting his reply.

@ALL. Many thanks for all your replys. Obviously CSR has had the same effect on some of you, some not. All I was saying is, that from "PERSONAL EXPERIENCE" it made me quicker, because, I had a feel for the car, I could hear what the car was actually doing, I ACTUALLY ENJOYED DRIVING THE CAR, thus I relaxed more, and drove with a smile on my face, and all this equated into new PB's.

Now I have been racing that car ( XFR at City Town ) for a very long time. Times are always consistantly crap, I have learnt to live with it. But with CSR, It felt better ( in my head I know ) and I felt quicker ( again in my head I know ) but for MY enjoyment factor, it is an excellent mod.

For you "realists" out there, then CSR is not something that you will like. But for people like me, that like to load LFS, quick few races ( inbetween changing baby's, making bottles, putting kids to bed, spending time with the Mrs, looking after house, fixing family PC's and working all day long ) CSR is a god send.

On this note, may I add, that it is a proven fact ( In real life, Cambridge Univeristy studied it with our tax payers money ) different types of music make's you drive differently. I won't go into all the different Genre's of music, but you get the idea.

@Tweak - Not sure what you mean by this comment

Quote from Tweaker :

Maybe another time I'll wait till Fordman posts that he saw the devs online for a second time and raced with them!!!

Quote from Tweaker :

He is roughly 3 seconds off the world record with the XFR @ SOT, and IF he can get within at least a second of the world record, I'd consider the sounds as helping him and refer him as a reliable source

I see this as a challange

But CSR is like Marmite. You either love it or hate it.

Thanks again for everybody's comments.

Fordie

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Note that I have nothing against CSR or the people who use it. I simply prefer not to, and I have my reasons which not many people share

Well, you can always turn off it's engine sounds, and just enjoy the brake squeal

Quote from miata :

If anything though I think this program has shown us just how good the LFS sounds are in their current state.

Not sounds, the sound engine. Two different things.

Also this CSR has shown how small sound additions makes huge difference, for example all the crackling and popping sounds, shifting clonks and stuff. You just can't generete these kind of little sounds, I don't know is that Scawen's plan but I don't hope so because the result just can't sound very good. For example take a look at the horrible collision detection sound in LFS which is generated (though it might sound so horrible partly because of the "bugs" in the collision detection).

Quote from Tweaker :

But I honestly think that most fast drivers would agree that, for the most part, driving quick has to do with the feel of the car, and sounds are purely background noises or helpful cues at certain points (like for shifting). With a helmet and earplugs on, most drivers just have a humm when driving, and cannot hear much, it's all in the feel in order to be at a super fast pace... and sounds are just cues that most drivers often 'tune' out. With a simulation, it just adds to making the drive feel a bit more real.

I wouldn't agree with that, in either real racing or LFS.
Next time you go to a new track on LFS (whenever we get one) turn your sound off, i gaurentee you wont get up to speed as quick. Sure no you could turn your sound off and it wouldn't affect your speed, but thats because you know the track inside/out.
With earplug and a helmet on real drivers can still hear ALOT.
You use sound to know when to shift up, when to shift down, you also listen to the sound the tyres make so you know if the pressures are too low or too high.
So there is alot that sound does for a driver, not just immersion.

Quote from nikimere :

I would agree with that, in either real racing or LFS.

From what you're saying it seems like... you wouldn't agree?
Or are you just agreeing because he said "fast drivers would agree"? :P

Quote :

You use sound to know when to shift up, when to shift down, you also listen to the sound the tyres make so you know if the pressures are too low or too high.

More detail in the tyre sound modulation would be interesting too - especially whenever we get surround sound.

Quote from xaotik :

From what you're saying it seems like... you wouldn't agree?
Or are you just agreeing because he said "fast drivers would agree"? :P



More detail in the tyre sound modulation would be interesting too - especially whenever we get surround sound.

sorry typo, meant WOULDN'T

So.... I tried the CSR all night last night in the FZR (I did try a while back as well, but turned it off when I couldn't drive). Yes it did sound better than the default sounds, but also masked alot. A few things I noticed....

Yes, due to better sounding sound, it was more immersive.

No, it did not net me new PB's. I ran briefly at KY GP (one of my favorites) then at As NAt since that is the only place to really race in the US.

I found myself "missing" shifts almost every shift. Missing such as I overshot the shift point consistantly. This was probably due more to the actual sounds rather than the mod. It didn't sound like it was up to rev's until around 11000 rpm in the FZR.

I tried to blend the LFS and CSR sounds, but couldn't change the level in CSR. LFS engine and skid sounds were maxed and they just weren't loud enough to overcome the masking of the CSR sound.

It did sound nicer, but not great. That has to do more with the actual sound rather than the mod (FZR). All I had was FZR and BF1 to try and since I don't ever run the BF1..... The FZR sound was just too high pitched with no low end grunt sound to it. It still sounded detached from the car. You can definitely hear a difference between the LFS sound being tied directly to the engine and the CSR sounds only attached to the tachometer reading.

Important - I could not get the momoled program working with it. Pitspotter mod did work. Both of those are important. I've yet to get any 2 programs that use outgage working together (like LFSC and momoled).

you may have missed the shift points due to the "regular" noise you were expecting to be different?

i missed a few myself when i 1st started, the way i have it setup is that i can still hear the normal LFS sounds as well, rather then trying to blank them out, i have them both working together, like enhancing the sound, rather then replacing it