It seems a little odd because the hardcore sim crowd has always been a pretty mature bunch in the past (I'm thinking Geoff Crammond, and then later Papyrus fans). Somehow, LFS seemed to capture a much younger audience pretty much from day one, but how?

The physics side of things does have a very accessible feel to it, especially with full support for keyboard and mouse users, but deep down it is incredibly complex which often puts people off. Also, the relative ease at which you could pull off some spectacular powerslides does have a certain appeal, so maybe that contributes...

I always felt the presentation was closer to an arcade racer than a full on sim (which is not a bad thing), but is that enough to really get a whole new generation hooked?

Or is it all a bit of a myth, and you're all actually old GPLers...?

massive, easy, online racing would be the selling point

Quote from durbster :

I always felt the presentation was closer to an arcade racer than a full on sim

if u think values all over, options with tech jargon all over, vector based ui, realtime ui, debug modes, analysis forces view etc, constitutes what u call an arcade presentation, i cant share that view.
its a deep deep sim thats already polished enough in certain areas to be user friendly. like click and online you are.
oh and it behaves like cars we all can have, so we can relate easier to them.
but arcade look? where?
its the worse arcade game ever.

It's the unecessarily flashy stuff, such as music playing in the background, big colourful buttons, the spinning cars that you can drop etc. Although some of thse things are there for very good reason (especially the car in the setup screen), to a new user they just look cool.

It's a simple inteface that belies it's depth and that's a huge compliment because it takes a lot of skill to achieve that.

That's not the answer though, because simplicity appeals to everyone; young or old.

it'S featured in online leagues, played in multigaming clans, shown on tv shows like GIGA TV on NBC so it's much better known among young online-gaming oriented players than among sim enthusiasts..

i stumbled upon it by looking for the GTR game on google and landing in a track IR review, where both games are mentioned. that'S why i first tried it shortly before the release of the first alpha demo

the online playability of the demo let's tons of younger players from other online games get into it. some stay demo only and continue playing CS, WoW, BF, COD and so on, others try S1/S2 and join the community here

Maybe it's just because we have "normal" cars in LFS (which are easily drift and drivable)?
Maybe it's just them being the loudest and most immature, so we think they are getting more and more, while in reality they just get louder and louder?

What makes you think most people are in the younger generation group? I myself am in my 30's and most people I know in LFS know are around my age.

I think you need some precise numbers before we can discuss this.

take out the "swingman" arcade view, that should keep the less mature from playing imo.

I know what you mean by the arcade look, I think. Do you mean the HUD during gameplay, like the lap counter, best lap and the split time in the middle of the screen ? If you do then i would agree on that because it does look a little arcady even though it does come in very useful at times. Maybe things will chnage a little in S3 as you may have a pit crew you can communicate with telling you your position and lap etc. And in some cars you maybe able to bring up split times on the dash etc.

But I still think it is a nice look and i wouldn't be bothered if it never changed much.

Andy.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

but arcade look? where?

Just to illustrate, in terms of interaction, the LFS setup screen could look something like this:
http://post-logic.com/softi/li ... CH_Setup/Pictures/25b.gif

It would be just as simple, just as effective from a users point of view, but it would make a huge difference in how it's percieved as a product.

And also, as AndyC points out, the information on screen while you're driving is exactly what you'd see in an arcade game.

Quote from Nevermore :

What makes you think most people are in the younger generation group? I myself am in my 30's and most people I know in LFS know are around my age.

I think you need some precise numbers before we can discuss this.

well compared to the average GPL driver, i bet the age structure here is much younger - especially on the demo servers

i don't see a problem with a young community, because every guy that decides to play LfS instead of NFSU is one step closer to become a real sim-racer and if you give them time and trat them friendly, a lot of them will start to understand, what this is about and some will turn into good drivers

Quote from durbster :

Just to illustrate, in terms of interaction, the LFS setup screen could look something like this:
http://post-logic.com/softi/li ... CH_Setup/Pictures/25b.gif

It would be just as simple, just as effective from a users point of view, but it would make a huge difference in how it's percieved as a product.

And also, as AndyC points out, the information on screen while you're driving is exactly what you'd see in an arcade game.

A complex, unintuitive interface is just indicative of poor design or lack of attention by the developers. It does not make the program more of a sim.

I think there are a lot of kids using LFS. But the demographics of who plays computer games (or sims) is strongly skewed towards younger people so it is only natural to have a higher percentage of younger people. Show me a sim that only old people play... and I will show you an old sim. And btw, I am one of the older guys.

The popularity with the younger generations is, I'm sure, down to the simple fact the they can play and play and play the FREE demo. once thay've played that to death they'll be hooked (mwahahaha)

alternatively - if an adult gamer is casually surfing about they are (IMHO) less likely to click "download demo" than a 14-yo looking for something cool and free to do.

Quote from Hallen :

A complex, unintuitive interface is just indicative of poor design or lack of attention by the developers. It does not make the program more of a sim.

You've missed my point there though, I wasn't suggesting a difference in the functionality of the interface, just purely how it looks. You could have exactly the same menus, layout, buttons, sliders etc., but presented in a sort of Microsoft Visual Basic style the whole product would feel completely different.

Quote from Hallen :

...the demographics of who plays computer games (or sims) is strongly skewed towards younger people

It's a widely held view but I'm not sure it's true. I've never seen stats to back it up. If you look at the readership of PC gaming mags for example, the average age is mid-late 20s, and you get just as many adults with PS2s as kids, possibly moreso since they're the generation that have grown up with computer games.

Quote from durbster :

You've missed my point there though, I wasn't suggesting a difference in the functionality of the interface, just purely how it looks. You could have exactly the same menus, layout, buttons, sliders etc., but presented in a sort of Microsoft Visual Basic style the whole product would feel completely different.

Im with Hallen on this one i think. I believe a vibrant, appealing interface is much more enjoyable to use than a lack-luster standard one. I feel if it looks boring it can feel boring.

Quote from SlimLine :

Im with Hallen on this one i think. I believe a vibrant, appealing interface is much more enjoyable to use than a lack-luster standard one. I feel if it looks boring it can feel boring.

I agree too. I wasn't suggesting it should be a dull, VB interface, I was just making the comparison.

I really dont understand this "LFS is arcare" discussion whats going on here now...I mean, what does the interface got do with is the something arcade or HC sim. And some purists *grohmnn" want only gray boxes to click, oh why? If options are easy to use and have colours its arcade, like NFSU arcade right? And if people would buy games desiding how large scale of colors are used in the game I think they choose the real arcade mentioned before

And why LFS attracts young people? Hmmm.... the feeling and the game has just something special, it can amaze people of all ages, I remember myself when I tryed S1 demo the very first time, I just had to phone my brother to buy me a voucher...well, he is still not bying becouse the tires squeeking in low speeds

But I dont think it has anything to do with colors used...

There are many kids onlie because generally the players et younger. Just look at Counter-Strike, the avg age seems to be like 12 Years
And additionally, LFS was presented in the GIGA Games TV in Germany, which is mostly watched by kids either.

LFS attracts at first the "non-conservative" Simracer, cause it came from a total different point of view. Ask any GPL freak, Nascar fan or whatever, to race you in the GTi. He wont.

The typical simmers want sims of fast racing cars, usually not available to buy for yourself. That's also the reason, why this genre has usually an older age, cause at the same time a Sim gets really really difficult, when simulating the actual high speed motorsport, and as a beginner you have to start with all the helps on, to get it going.
In LFS you start the GTi as n00b, and can manage a real simulated car on the track. From that point comes the confidence in being able to master a Sim.

To put it to one sentence: Why there are more LFS only guys, rocking in other Sims, than the other way round? Where are the team redliners, hackkmanns etc. that pwn (to stay with the 1337-speak ) every Nascar/GPL race? Why is there a column about the chat behaviour on LFS-servers in A.S.S.? Cause LFS wakens them up, shakes up the sim-scene, opens it to new parts of the market, enters the "eSport-scene", going side by side with CS, WC3 etc. Actually LFS has afaik the most prizes in online simracing available atm.
And that's the main reasons new people come to it, that's maybe also the reason some of "us" are fanatics when it comes to advertising the "own" Sim. Because LFS goes new ways, compared to the old and conservative ones of the simracing scene since years.

Ever thought about doing some public relations for LFS, Vykos?

Quote from Linsen :

Ever thought about doing some public relations for LFS, Vykos?

i bet he never ever thought about it

Quote from durbster :

I agree too. I wasn't suggesting it should be a dull, VB interface, I was just making the comparison.

You made a comparison between lfs and a highend 3d app, softimage xsi.
I dont understand whats to debate in this thread.

I don't know exactly why young people like LFS, but there are some very talented young drivers here who are capable of doing WRs.

Quote from durbster :

... the spinning cars that you can drop etc. Although some of
thse things are there for very good reason (especially the car in the setup
screen), to a new user they just look cool.

Now that you mention it, the dropping car DID make me say "Kkhhhooooollll".
The driving got me interested and the online gaming got me hooked. The rest
could have been pretty much anything, i bet i'd still be here.

I'm not sure where we have any facts indicating the age of LFS users, but
i did notice a change in the general attitude of the community in the last
year or so. In all, it's a good thing, but some bad traits have also been
highlighted. I'm not sure any of this can be tied to age as much as maturity
which ISN'T as connected to age as some like to think. I know 30 years old
immature people just like i've met incredibly mature 8 year olds. Some of the
older folks are as much a trouble makers as some of the n00bs are, if not
more, just like real life . Heck, this IS real life, i'm no AI

It has nothing to do with what Live For Speed is or isn't, but what the 'rival' sims are.

Let's take Grand Prix Legends for example, the vast majority of people who play it are those who grew up a lot closer to the 60's and have a stronger bond with the cars and tracks than is probably healthy.

The same can be said of GTR, endurance racing for the most part doesn't appeal to the younger audience. Setting aside 3 hours (at least) to watch a motor race doesn't fit in with their plans like the way touring cars and Formula One do.

Excepting the LX cars, the other deciding factor is that Live For Speed doesn't really model old cars. It's all relatively modern which probably alienates some of the GPL purists who might otherwise enjoy the physics and online racing that LFS has to offer.

Above all though, Live For Speed manages to offer everything from Mini sprint racing to full grands prix, which is remarkable, really. So I guess the younger audience is downto maybe being more open to what's on offer and not being turned off by the fact it doesn't actually simulate a real series or track.

This long ramble was brought to you by the letter C.