Not sure if this belongs here or in the Skins section, but here goes.

It has been pointed out to me that a team has used one of my skins (FZR NUFC Lister) as the base for their teamskins

From what I have seen, it looks like they have removed the original sponsors, replaced them with their own numbers etc and re-coloured parts of the skin, one colour for each different driver.

I am not *that* bothered about it, but would have preferred that they approached me about it first, I wouldn't have minded knocking up a few variations for them...maybe with a link to my site or something added in return.

Apparently when they were using these teamskins, someone joined the race using my original to get them to notice. I would have loved to have been there at the time to see their reaction.

I haven't named the team concerned as I haven't had a reply to PM yet, but had to get this off my chest by posting about it.

Imitation definitely is the most sincere form of flattery, though it's not the most pleasant in all circumstances. I suspect the problem will boil down to you saying the skin is "public". There's a huge amount of confusion out there about what copyright even means, and even copyrighted material is genuinely believed by many to be a free-for-all.

You may have to chalk this one up to experience, I suspect . Having not set any limitations and said it's "public", it'd be difficult to argue with anyone that took you up on the offer. They've made an effort to personalise the skin, too, which might mean to you that your work has been de-faced.. to them, it's probably perceived as individualising and something you'd approve of. It all depends whereabouts you come at it from, I think.

At the very end of the day, I think it's probably best to give yourself a pat on the back that the skin you created was good enough for a team to want to take you up on your offer of a skin. It is a nice skin, although I personally think it'd look better in blue and white rather than black and white, and said "Wednesday" on it somewhere

Simple solution - go on their forums, or track em down on LFS and tell em what you think - if they've annoyed you, your well allowed to tell them where they can shove their team skin

Wow, thats a great piece of art Bean! The Lister has been always among my favourites from the dinosaur era of GT racing, since Sports Car GT back in '97, that skin is just awesome!!

Quote from SamH :

You may have to chalk this one up to experience, I suspect . Having not set any limitations and said it's "public", it'd be difficult to argue with anyone that took you up on the offer. They've made an effort to personalise the skin, too, which might mean to you that your work has been de-faced.. to them, it's probably perceived as individualising and something you'd approve of. It all depends whereabouts you come at it from, I think.

I would agree and disagree with that. I agree that public means it open to anyone but then so are art gallery's but you wouldnt go into one and re paint one of the paintings.
I do agree though its a diffictult one to get around, when ive made public skins i find its a good idea to add "public but do not edit" or "public skin, feel free to change number but edit no further" etc

Wonder how the NUFC Lister team feel about you "stealing" their skin?, imitation is the greatest form of flattery afterall.

My Irony sensor is off the chart

Greb, I agree with you. The problem is that "public", without additional "you can.." and "you can't.." is too easily understood to simply mean "have at".

[edit] @ dan.. it's a fair point! LOL

It does say on my site that they are for public use, but permission should be asked for if people want to edit them.

The problem with taking it to their own forums is that they can quite easily delete any posts and ban anyone they like.

As I said, I'm not really put out by it, but would have preferred not to find out about it from another member of the community.

Edit: Nice one Dan, now go away

Quote from Bean0 :

As I said, I'm not really put out by it, but would have preferred not to find out about it from another member of the community.

Totally understandable

Perhaps now would be a good time to add, ON the skin, "For Use By Request Only. No Editing. No Theft. Ask FIRST."

Is it REALLY worth excerting any effort over it?, I mean REALLY, in the grand scheme of things its no biggie.

Put it this way, could you imagine if all the companies logos we "use" in our skins, all the real world skins we copy etc, turned round and said we couldn't use them? or had to ask for express permission?

It would be a nightmare, just be happy in the knowledge you created a VERY nice skin, and someone is using it and it is giving them some pleasure.

Since getting into sim racing a year ago, the attitude towards copyright has always bugged me. Pretty much the entire sim scene is based on copyright abuse. I don't actually have a problem with that (being a long term copyright cynic....), but if you don't want people to screw with your work then release whatever you make with a proper licence.

Just saying "This is public" is begging to be ripped off...

Quote from danowat :

Is it REALLY worth excerting any effort over it?, I mean REALLY, in the grand scheme of things its no biggie.

True.. it is NUFC, afterall

As Stu says..

Quote from Bean0 :

As I said, I'm not really put out by it, but would have preferred not to find out about it from another member of the community.

.. which is fair.

Quote from Bean0 :

It does say on my site that they are for public use, but permission should be asked for if people want to edit them.

...but you link to a post that says nothing more than "Public as always". I wouldn't ask any permissions if I saw that.

All good points above, I suppose I was just a bit surprised when I found out.

If it was just an individual doing it then I wouldn't have even posted, but the fact that it's a known team took me by surprise.

Some valid points raised, but at least credit should go to the person who did the actual skin work, after all.

If it's a well-known team, then I reckon it wouldn't be too difficult to find them and talk to them about it. It IS your work, and most active teams are quite familiar with the rule-of-thumb process of asking permission to use skins they didn't, themselves, create from the ground up.

All other things aside, there's a very important aspect we haven't touched on in this thread, and that is one of common courtesy. Whether a skin is "public" with no restrictions, or "limited" with restrictions, in neither circumstance is copyright voided (legally). If someone is going to knowingly lift your work and use it, the least they should be expected to do is ask.

[edit] or give credit, I agree, Gunn.

There's a difference between Imitation and plain laziness.....

Quote from SamH :

If someone is going to knowingly lift your work and use it, the least they should be expected to do is ask.

Given that a sizeable proportion of LFS users are adolescents, it would be daft to expect anything.

If you want to be treated in a particular way, write it large and explicitly with the download.

Yep, Nihil, I'm totally in agreement. The thing is, once you get into the "known team" slot, by then you've probably got a good grasp on what's right and what's wrong, what's normal behaviour and what's not regarded generally as acceptable in the community.

I don't wanna know the team in question. I'd personally prefer for the thing to be resolved in PMs.

I can't really see a "respected team" banning you from their forums, tbh

Damn Sam!

No wonder you were pulling these good skins out all of a sudden!

Wait.... do UKCT even have a forum?

Yes! but I'm still polishing it up.

[edit] and haven't you got some class you should be sitting in, Jak??

Shame. All you can do is ask them to credit you or get your name on the skin that they work from. If they show no respect then they are pure evil. If they are respectful of your work when confronted, then maybe they'll carry out your list of demands.

Problem is, if it didn't cross their minds to ask in the first place they might just ignore you now.

Quote from Greboth :

I would agree and disagree with that. I agree that public means it open to anyone but then so are art gallery's but you wouldnt go into one and re paint one of the paintings.

Hmmm. When you say "re paint" I assume you don't mean walk in and do your own new painting on top of the old canvas, right? But have you been to an art gallery lately Greb? I always see art students in there sketching or painting away, copying a painting that gives them some sort of inspiration. No copyright issues, i.e., legal issues, as far as I know, and in my opinion no ethical issue at all.

I have to say that I'm with Dan on this one.

To the OP, it sounds like these people have been impolite to you, and should certainly have acknowledged your work, but I would find it really stretching things to accuse them of theft in this environment. I don't want to put you on the spot, but just out of curiosity: if I was to scan your hard drive, would you come up squeaky clean in terms of "borrowed" digital content?