I took a spin in rF today, wanted to try out a couple of the recently released tracks. After doing 2 or 3 laps on each of the 4 tracks I downloaded, I promptly fired up LFS to relieve myself. I was slightly turned off by the ambience though. I released that while rFactor can not shake a stick at the physics, or crispness of quality that LFS has (I prefer LFS's graphical style, personally) I found LFS to be sort of lifeless. Westhill being the worst offender, I just found a general lack of ambient feel to the tracks.

Blackwood is the only track that doesn't suffer from this; it has plenty of character. The buildings and the highway show signs of life outside the track, while the immediate scenery gives a perception of purpose.

In Westhill, it almost seems as if the track just was. As if there was nothing prior to it, or around it. Not much in the way of scenery to give any character to the track.

Now, I realise there are some real tracks that suffer from this (many of them designed by on H. Tilke, and located in the Formula 1 calendar) but I'd still like to see more oldschool tracks in LFS. Kyoto is almost there, just needs some people and other such details and I think it'll have a great feeling. South City I think needs more evidence of the city surrounding it; especially in the highway section. Off to the right (when on City Long Standard) there isn't much. Maybe adding some high-rises off in the distance, similar in position relative to the track as the ones in Blackwood, would help add to the feel of being in a city?

Fern Bay has loads of character already, it doesn't need a whole lot more. Again, maybe just a crowd to watch the races.

Now, some of you may just think of this as superficial and dismiss it, but this is something I think is important. The ambience a sim has contributes to its immersion and believability; ultimately to its realism as well. While some of the cars (read: Most) are not thoroughbread racing machines, it could be percieved that such races would be support races on a weekend for a higher level racing series (FO8, BF1 or GTR races, for instance) and as such, larger crowds would still be present.

I know Eric has been reworking the tracks a little bit, and I think this issue should be addressed during this process. Add fans in the stands, add in the RV campers, fire pits, tossed beer cans. Hell, add in the porta-potties and snack stalls. The sim needs life!

That is exactly what I want, however, although lfs lacks some 'eye candy', it is still in alpha version.

I'd like to see some kinda of ambience, such as in most ps2 games....yeah, but it just makes it that much more fun

Games such as Trackmania Nations (Free PC download) and Burnout 3 had that

What you just described Maggot was pretty much the opposite of the impressions I had of Westhill the other night. I discovered I was really enjoying the solitude of the track- like it was an escape, some-place where you could just cut loose and enjoy. It reminds me a bit of the town I grew up- nothing special, but you could have fun there anyway with a bit of imagination. Kyoto's like, it's where the airport is- far enough out of town but still having that urban feeling, that hard concrete character about it. Westhill is far out beyond the airport somewhere- in the country, some humble little boring agricultural town. And the track is just an anomaly in this funny, forgotten place. It has country ambience!

Hmm, I like it!

edit: I don't know if Westhill 'International' really fits this discription though...

@Vain; That was a point I was going to make, but left it out of my post because I've complained about modern tracks on this forum so much I bet people are sick of hearing it now. LOL It is how Mosport was designed, too.

@Electrik Kar; I completely see your point, and it was a thought I had, but there is a certain character those kinds of tracks have which I feel is missing in Westhill. It should keep its solitude, but there is something more it needs. I can't put my finger on it, though.

I actually like Westhill the best of all the tracks in LFS. I wouldn't say it's missing ambiance any more than any other track in the game. It's just not a small-ish track in a fairly tiny, congested area like most of the others. I would actually say that if anything is missing it has nothing to do with the track.

The reason that you can feel all alone when playing LFS is that YOU ARE. There are no people milling around the pits and very few marshalls out on the track (none of which even do so much as turn their head or cross their arms). The people that are in the stands are all mute and like to sit very, very still. Nobody ever takes a picture or utters a word. There's no pit crew, no crew chief, nobody at all in your pit or talking in your ear. And you're all alone in the car too. Other than the sounds of the engine and tires (and now, diff/tranny) there's nothing else. No squeaky brakes, no pebbles hitting the wheelwells, no creaks from the dashboard.

While Westhill is very open with large runoffs, I certainly don't think that's the problem. The problem is that there really aren't any people around and there's no ambient noise. Imagine how much more alive LFS would feel with crowd noises, flag marshalls, pit crews, picture taking fans, people in the stands waving banners, etc.

For a city track South city is just amazing. But imho, just like all tracks on LFS, it needs more spectators. I made an improvement suggestions long time ago about the spectators having some flags and signs about the drivers' nationalities, teams and car makes and imho it is not a bad suggestion . LFS tracks feel and look quite good but the feeling of driving in front of an audience is kinda missing. That said, LFS tracks look very real and nice

I think Westhill definitely could use a few stands/signs/thingies between turn 3 and the finish, perhaps some trees a bit closer in (a couple more slower turns or another config would be great too, but let's not go nuts). There's not all that much happening out the back of the paddock there ...

I like that it's like a club track somewhere out in the dales, but with a full grid of GTRs thundering around it does seem sort of haunted. Maybe add a whole bunch of buildings and signs but make it all look run-down and decaying, like the place was abandoned in the '60s (or like Silent Hill) and LFS'ers have just rediscovered it

Like I mentioned in the 'real life track licensing' thread, real tracks grow 'organically', after being built around the landscape they're often tweaked over the years giving quirks and a feel that can't be created from scratch.

Ambient surroundings are a big part of this too, not just big stuff like buildings nearby, but decommisioned bits of old track, buildings that started out for one purpose and have been converted for something else or are now in the infield and disused etc.

Quote :

The problem is that there really aren't any people around and there's no ambient noise. Imagine how much more alive LFS would feel with crowd noises, flag marshalls, pit crews, picture taking fans, people in the stands waving banners, etc.

Or the Blackwood Guru wandering mystically out onto the track mid-race...

Hmmm...

Perhaps that is reason why I find racing in Blackwood and South City more pleasant experience, even XRT at Aston Grand Touring is quite lot of fun too, but something I miss there.

Funny, had never thought that it would be such irrelevant thing that changes how I feel track, always thought it would be corners and general layout, maybe those also matter, but maybe indeed there is this ambience thing too

Quote from Electrik Kar :

Or the Blackwood Guru wandering mystically out onto the track mid-race...

Hmmm...

Imho, a better solution would be use fixed spectator ratios.
on practise sessions:
Very few spectators on stands, few scattered around the track, mostly marshalls but most of the people on the pits or near abouts.
on qualify sessions:
More people around but not not "packed"
on race sessions:
Lot's of people around

ever heard of stepehen kings "langoliers"?
it seems like these abandoned worlds, but here a re "people" but they don't chat/take pictures/jell *put random noise here* like Cue-ball mentioned before...
like some isolated island...

regards

Would it help to put some sample at random corner, air horn that is played at random times and like some races you see they play?

How about some race reporter mumbling that would sound to be coming from loud speakers?

Tricks from movies, illusions, set ups, should those be used to create some atmosphere or real things?

Traffic flowing road that can be seen from track making background traffic noise?

Or should there just be more race cars on track? I have sometimes enjoyed greatly from sounds of race on full servers, sounded like I would be on real track as cars thundered past pit wall.

Often when I'm on track there is lot of action on pit area too, some are tuning engines revving them, cars coming and going from pits, also can hear cars on track even those are more than 500 meters away.
I believe that such sounds create a lot of atmosphere.

In rFactor/GTR there is this pit sample, where there is sounds from busy pit area playing when you are adjusting settings and in menu, on some tracks there is also similar sample playing in pits area, creates illusion of action in pits and it is just simple wav that loops there. Movie tricks, illusions.

Some sounds perhaps could be added to help to remove lifeless feeling, I just believe that this is again planned to be done better than in those mentioned games and perhaps it takes bit longer to get these fine details in game, don't know, I'm just guessing like most.

I've never seen any game do spectators well (card board cut-outs, dodgy looped animations etc) - I guess they're too much of an ancillary add-on to want to spend too much time on. Imagine having to film each person waving flags or jumping around in front of a blue screen, times 50 maybe, perhaps giving each guy a nice sausage sizzle lunch at the end as payment. RBR had nice animations, but they much more integral to the game.
Sounds like a real headache to me.

Frame rate is probably a major factor in the "lack" of scene detail.

Quote :

Frame rate is probably a major factor in the "lack" of scene detail.

Before more people, I would rather see more grass. I don't really know why. Guess I just hate crowds

Quote from Hyperactive :

the spectators having some flags and signs about the drivers' nationalities, teams and car makes

I really like this idea..

Have the game pull the drivers' nationalities from LFSWorld and populate the crowd with flags. You could even change the popularity of certain flags according to the drivers' experience

Quote from Crashgate3 :

I really like this idea..

Have the game pull the drivers' nationalities from LFSWorld and populate the crowd with flags. You could even change the popularity of certain flags according to the drivers' experience

that will be awesome!

Quote from Lepletier :

that will be awesome!

You meen that WOULD be awesome..
But yea, that is one hell of an idea, i am drolling just thinking of that, and it is not that imposibble to do actually..

Quote from Crashgate3 :

I really like this idea..

Have the game pull the drivers' nationalities from LFSWorld and populate the crowd with flags. You could even change the popularity of certain flags according to the drivers' experience

That is an EXCELLENT idea!

Don't think I've ever heard that before either....

Then we'd have million of globy flags... :P

How about just having random bugs splat onto your windshield as you drive (or into your teeth, in the case of the open wheelers). Presto, ambience/immersion problem solved.
Speaking of which, may I suggest animated scarves for the drivers?

YAH! and the female driver models should have long hair streaming out the back that reacts to G-forces/Wind, and we should be able to wind the window down, and the hair reacts to the wind!

Undertech, you're brilliant!

Yeah, I agree with the lack of track ambeiance, LFS is still firmly set in Cartoon/Game world, and it does lack the grimey, real life look of something like GTR2 or GTL

Quote from danowat :

Yeah, I agree with the lack of track ambeiance, LFS is still firmly set in Cartoon/Game world, and it does lack the grimey, real life look of something like GTR2 or GTL

Dunno man... At least my real life doesn't look like polished plastic with lens flares poking my eye out.

But we do need more ambient noise.

And while you're at it, suspension noise, better road noise, EAX cockpit room reverb, windscreen with bugs on it (I remember DX8 having some interesting problems trying to render stuff behind the glass). It's all on the improvement suggestion list already.