Basically I want to start a thread for discussing the current sounds. I would like to hear ideas on how to improve my sounds, and maybe future changes to the sound system for Scawen. Any criticism/comments are encouraged in this thread.

I have many ideas for the sounds in LFS, but I want to hear your thoughts.

For anyone reading this thread, I'll make a log of all the (sensible) suggestions:

- Noise generator to produce a constantly changing pulse sample (in realtime)
- Secondary exhaust simulation covering different frequencies running alongside current one
- Controlled distortion / dynamics editing
- Simulation of an object of a certain mass who's oscillations and therefore sound are driven by the engine rotations
- Lose the echo around trees
- Ambience / environmental sounds (birds, people, mechanics, flies, planes etc)
- Better collision sounds
- Improved skid sounds
- Suspension / wheel impact sounds (especially over curbs)
- Stones / gravel noises
- Backfires
- Chassis stress noises
- Pedal noises
- Steering noises
- Indicator noise
- High frequency noises fade with distance
- Whoosh as you drive past objects
- Minor reduction in off power volume
- Sounds heard from greater distances
- Support for 5.1 surround sound systems
- Sound is directional i.e. directed from exhaust

Hello DaveWS, nice sound adjustment by the way.

My comment doesn't relate specifically to adjusting sounds but this seems like a good place to post my thoughts.

In some cars (UFR? for example) the gear whine seems to loop badly. It's not a constant whine. The sound will 'pop' or 'jump' rythmically. I'm not sure if my explanation makes sense.

Is this how the gear whine of a real GTR styled mini would sound? Or is this an error in the sound reproduction?

Hope this helps improve LFS!

Thanks.

Lose 95% of the echo and they'll all sound 200% better (this obviously doesn't strictly relate to just engine sounds). Trees do not sound like echo chambers

More environment sounds are needed.. rumble strips are a _must_ but it'd also be nice to hear under-chassis noises like loose stones in the wheel arches which get more intense as you drive off the tarmac etc.

I can't really say much more about the engine sounds in particular as they're just drowned out by an echo effect even after adjusting the header etc tones. Lose the fake echo around the tracks and I'd be able to give a better opinion (FWIW) on the rest of them

The only one can comment on is the turbo sound.. sounds more like a whistle than any turbo'd car I've ever been in (with and without dump valves / oversized actuators etc). I'd like to hear the turbo spool up in the likes of the XRT and XRR, but as it stands atm, I turn that volume as low as it'll go so I don't as it just sounds wrong. Actually, IIRC, the induction noise is similar too as should be more of a "slurp" than a breeze blowing between a Nun's legs



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Ian.H :

Lose 95% of the echo and they'll all sound 200% better (this obviously doesn't strictly relate to just engine sounds). Trees do not sound like echo chambers

More environment sounds are needed.. rumble strips are a _must_ but it'd also be nice to hear under-chassis noises like loose stones in the wheel arches which get more intense as you drive off the tarmac etc.

I can't really say much more about the engine sounds in particular as they're just drowned out by an echo effect even after adjusting the header etc tones. Lose the fake echo around the tracks and I'd be able to give a better opinion (FWIW) on the rest of them



Regards,

Ian

Agreed on all points. Especially:

Quote from Ian.H :

More environment sounds are needed.. rumble strips are a _must_ but it'd also be nice to hear under-chassis noises like loose stones in the wheel arches which get more intense as you drive off the tarmac etc.

Haven't this been done before? It's hard for me to come up with relevant suggestions on how you and the devs could improve the sound Dave, since I'm not really up to date with what the lfs sound engine is capable of. But if they are to improve it I suppose a rattling noise while driving on gravel would be nice. I'm guessing that a lot of people will keep requesting backfires, though IMO there's no point if they're not simulated.

What else ... Ian mentioned the rumble strips and more environment sounds, both good suggestions.

How about the tyre squeal? How many levels are there currently? 2? 3? The tyre squeal at 5km/h is rather annoying.

Quote from avaran :

In some cars (UFR? for example) the gear whine seems to loop badly. It's not a constant whine. The sound will 'pop' or 'jump' rythmically. I'm not sure if my explanation makes sense.

Yes this is where I would like people to post things like this. I know exactly what you mean about the looping sound of the GTR cars especially. The problem is this, due to copyright issues, the only way to extract a usable gear whine from within the law is to record the whine from an in-car video. From here the whine has to be isolated from the rest of the sound as well as I can, cut to length, the pitch levelled, and looped. The chances of the loop sounding perfect are far from good. Even with days of tweaking, the current whine is the best I can come up with. Yes I know it's not perfect, and feel free to try making your own, as long as it is copyright free.

Quote from Ian.H :

Lose 95% of the echo and they'll all sound 200% better (this obviously doesn't strictly relate to just engine sounds). Trees do not sound like echo chambers
More environment sounds are needed.. rumble strips are a _must_ but it'd also be nice to hear under-chassis noises like loose stones in the wheel arches which get more intense as you drive off the tarmac etc.

I can't really say much more about the engine sounds in particular as they're just drowned out by an echo effect even after adjusting the header etc tones. Lose the fake echo around the tracks and I'd be able to give a better opinion (FWIW) on the rest of them

The only one can comment on is the turbo sound.. sounds more like a whistle than any turbo'd car I've ever been in (with and without dump valves / oversized actuators etc). I'd like to hear the turbo spool up in the likes of the XRT and XRR, but as it stands atm, I turn that volume as low as it'll go so I don't as it just sounds wrong. Actually, IIRC, the induction noise is similar too as should be more of a "slurp" than a breeze blowing between a Nun's legs

I think that the echo sounds pretty accurate when set at the minimum setting.

I agree with you about more environment sounds being added. More impact sounds, from the suspension / tyres etc; ambience, birds / planes / people, everything you would hear IRL.

Some of the sounds / samples, yes, aren't fully accurate either.

Quote from avaran :

In some cars (UFR? for example) the gear whine seems to loop badly. It's not a constant whine. The sound will 'pop' or 'jump' rythmically. I'm not sure if my explanation makes sense.

If it's the sound I'm thinking of, it sounds like the motion tracker in Aliens.

".... three meters man......." :tired:

Sorry, I have nothing to add

calculated (white) noise as the excitiation updated for every single stroke of the engine to make it sound more random and rough ... could help a lot with the engines current way too clean sound

Quote from Shotglass :

calculated (white) noise as the excitiation updated for every single stroke of the engine to make it sound more random and rough ... could help a lot with the engines current way too clean sound

Yeah. Possibly another simulation. Currently we have an exhaust simulation only. It would be good if another metallic (property) type object could be simulated which would vibrate based on the engine strokes, and resonate loudly at certain frequencies based on its mass to produce more "layers" to the sound. Just an idea.

variable distortion for engine sound
irregular engine sound at low revs
clutch noise
pedal noise
brake squeal
differential noise
shock / damper noise
different wind noise when damaged
tail pipe damage
turn signal sound
more variety in crashing sounds
backfiring!

+1 for better turbo sounds and gravel rattling
also smoother loops

Now we're talking.

IMO there should be no or hardly any gearwhine outside the car, as it would be drowned out by the exhaust... And your sounds are an improvement to the previous ones, but still lack the brutal high-rev scream... The cars still sound like a baby lion on high revs...

And the BF1-clipping was killing me, I had to change back to your V-patch engine...

Quote from bbman :

And your sounds are an improvement to the previous ones, but still lack the brutal high-rev scream... The cars still sound like a baby lion on high revs...

I think DaveWS has already used 99% of current the sound engine potential... and as you know he can't touch the source code (until he joins the dev team as the soundmaker? ) so basicly only minor changes are possible.

Like I already suggested in that other thread, the GTR car gear shift sounds could be somehow louder "clonks" sounds. Too bad it isn't possible to set different sample for up and down shift.

BF1 is probably as good as it gets with the current stuff... or is it? I like sound pack V3 version BF1 sound slightly better, but then again it causes clipping). And FZ50/FZR... that's the other "bad" sounding. It lacks that kind of "soft" Porsche scream... you know what I mean

LX4/6 are ok, but needs more "grunt" or something e.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQeWSXfojI

Definately the best sounding are FXR, XFR and FO8, nothing more to add to those cars as long as there are no new features in the sound simulation.

Btw what actually causes this clipping? The sound engine just can't take it and then it goes like that?

Quote from Not Sure :

turn signal sound

don't we already have that?

(for the future- impossible in current state)

How about a subtle 'whoosh' sound as you fly past a close-by stationary object at high speed, such as a tree? It's quite a noticeable sound in real life

The other sounds that 'not sure' mentioned are good ideas. I'd add to that a bit of rattle/stress noise inside the car as you go over bumps, etc..

Especially, but along with everything else () I'd like to see 'more variety in crashing sounds' - hitting cones should sound like hitting cones- hitting tyres should sound like hitting tyres...

Still feel that the synth engine sounds come across as perhaps a bit too (not sure of the right word here) erm.. compressed/contained(?)- if you compare the CSR stuff with the synth stuff, the CSR sound-field is spacially much broader, more stereo sounding...

Enough late night (probably incoherent) rambling from Ekar

Quote from deggis :

Btw what actually causes this clipping? The sound engine just can't take it and then it goes like that?

Sometimes the wave produced by the synthesizer is an exaggerated shape it seems when certain pulse samples are used. But in general, clipping occurs when the amplitude of the wave exceeds the limit of volume LFS can produce which cuts off the top of the waves (clips).

the patch W sounds are pretty nice for current LFS sound engine.
but i do feel the off power volume in some of the cars is too high. maybe this volume should be lower and thus add more 'contrast' to the engine sound. i mean in some cars the noise with full throttle can be much louder and maybe this effect can be created by increase the volume difference by lowering off power volume
also i think the gearwhine in the open wheelers is a bit too high, and the cars sound like some kind of jet plane. is that realistic?

hi davews, really nice sounds so far

just tried to set the LX6 exhaust volume from 1.3 to 3.0

and wroooom thats my cup of tea, indeed it think its still bit loud but the raspness and distortional sound... HEAVEN! the feeling in the whole spectrum of rpm is just awesome for me

thats the way lx6 should sound (and it sounds very realistic to me) (just drive with lx6 and 3.0 on oval with track camera heheh)

your opinion?

Quote from DaveWS :

I think that the echo sounds pretty accurate when set at the minimum setting.

:faint2:


Try driving BL1... approaching the last split.. now explain to me why that sounds like you're driving through a sealed plastic container. Trees _do not_ act like echo chambers.. and I can't turn the echo effects down any lower here, I have everything possible set to absolute minimum. The _only_ time I've ever heard echos / reverb in reality is when running close to a large solid object, such as a wall / going through a tunnel.

This was done well in S1.. but now, everything's a damn echo!

No offense Dave, but if you think the echo as it is sounds realistic, please step aside and let someone else do it



Regards,

Ian


EDIT: I should mention that this started to be noticed earlier on in S2 days, when the engines became "bassier" in a patch. They didn't really get much deeper, just more of an echo / reverb effect added. Now it seems to have gone completely OTT.

The above isn't aimed so much at your engine sounds, but the track sounds. Running along the cliff wall at Fern Bay Green for example sounds good and you'd expect such a sound there, but not driving between 2 rows of trees on a fairly wide area of track. I've hammered cars through country lanes many times as a teen, both with standard exhausts on a 1.1 and full 3" race designed stainless systems on Cossies.. not once did I get an echo sound.. deep rumbles from the low compression turbo engine in the Cossies, but not an echo effect.

This post wasn't meant to sound quite as harsh as it now reads to me.. but please consider at least discussing this with the powers that be.. it really doesn't sound right.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

(for the future- impossible in current state)

How about a subtle 'whoosh' sound as you fly past a close-by stationary object at high speed, such as a tree? It's quite a noticeable sound in real life

+1x10! Brilliant idea, that alone would make the game sound a whole lot better.

How about a kind of buff sound from the engine or exhaust.

From comparing LFS's engine sounds with onboard videos I think there are two points I can put my finger on.
1. LFS seems to lack a bit regarding very low frequencies. Maybe those aren't produced by the combustion but rather by other resonating objects (cylinder block, chassis) which would also explain why it is so difficult to grasp.
I don't know how far LFS simulates this, but a real exhaust system oscillates quite heavily under revving. This could cause sound itself, or might be an indication of other oscillating parts.
2. Many high end vehicles sound very much like a trumpet. Click here for a real vehicle (...with wrong description...) and here for an LFS car.
You can also nicely hear how the real engine sound 'flitters', while the LFS sound is very monotoneous. This might have something to do with the oscillation from point 1.

Vain

Quote from deggis :

BF1 is probably as good as it gets with the current stuff... or is it?

Do you still have patch U installed ? Compare patch U and patch V/W BF1 sounds and tell me which one sounds more like a F1.

Quote from deggis :

And FZ50/FZR... that's the other "bad" sounding. It lacks that kind of "soft" Porsche scream... you know what I mean

The FZR is the car I'm driving the most. Its sound definitely lacks balls and growl.

Quote from Ian.H :

but now, everything's a damn echo!

Not only that but now everything sounds muffled and lacks body.
The whole sound balance is f*cked, it's even hard to hear my own horn! Although when I compare the patch U horn RAW sounds with the patch W corresponding WAV ones, they have the same volume and amplitude.
It's hard to hear other cars close to me, skid sounds are almost inaudible, I don't hear anymore the sound from other cars brushing a wall behind me, etc...
Patch U sounds may not be accurate but at least the whole thing sounded 'alive'. I have to admit I'm disappointed by the new sounds. It may technically be an improvement but the global result is poor

imho it'd be a good idea to have dynamic volume for engine sounds, like low rev = low volume and high rev = high volume. and when the volume is already at its maximum maybe the volume of other sounds can be dynamically lowered so relative loudness is changing.

also a higher maximum wind volume would be nice, with more significant volume change when driving in slipstreams.

Quote from Lotesdelere :

Patch U sounds may not be accurate but at least the whole thing sounded 'alive'. I have to admit I'm disappointed by the new sounds. It may technically be an improvement but the global result is poor

Signed.

Maybe the devs could at least change the crash sound that has been the same since first LFS... plonk!

Quote from Sheepy1977 :

but i do feel the off power volume in some of the cars is too high

The off power volume was originally too low, maybe now I've changed it to far the other way. Anyone else have opinions on this?

Quote from Sheepy1977 :

also i think the gearwhine in the open wheelers is a bit too high, and the cars sound like some kind of jet plane. is that realistic?

Yes, especially in GTR cars, the whine sound the straight cuts gears produce is often very loud and high pitched. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q8ZNkhxT04

Quote from MoonForce :

just tried to set the LX6 exhaust volume from 1.3 to 3.0

I'll agree it can sound nice, however that's purely the distortion you hear. The wave is cut, and therefore the sound is more aggressive, but it's not how the sound should be produced. Just personal preference.

Quote from Ian.H :

:faint2:

I agree that the echo is far too great around trees, however under bridges etc it gives a good sense of environment.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

...

Yes, that idea sounds good, however Scawen will probably want to simulate it properly which could be difficult as I would guess its to do with the air being compressed / moved quickly..

I agree with the other points also.

Quote from Vain :

From comparing LFS's engine sounds with onboard videos I think there are two points I can put my finger on.
1. LFS seems to lack a bit regarding very low frequencies. Maybe those aren't produced by the combustion but rather by other resonating objects (cylinder block, chassis) which would also explain why it is so difficult to grasp.
I don't know how far LFS simulates this, but a real exhaust system oscillates quite heavily under revving. This could cause sound itself, or might be an indication of other oscillating parts.
2. Many high end vehicles sound very much like a trumpet. Click here for a real vehicle (...with wrong description...) and here for an LFS car.
You can also nicely hear how the real engine sound 'flitters', while the LFS sound is very monotoneous. This might have something to do with the oscillation from point 1.

Vain

I agree, and I have an idea which I will post in a minute.

Quote from icyocean :

imho it'd be a good idea to have dynamic volume for engine sounds, like low rev = low volume and high rev = high volume. and when the volume is already at its maximum maybe the volume of other sounds can be dynamically lowered so relative loudness is changing.

also a higher maximum wind volume would be nice, with more significant volume change when driving in slipstreams.

You can change the wind volume in the Shift-A menu. Dynamic volume is already present. The cars grow louder already with revs.