Most of the rampaging over points came from the single seater server - and I have spent some time there in the last day and I have to say I am absolutely disgusted by half of the occupancy.

I assumed the bitching and moaning was standard LFS 'you crashed me and now i'm going to complain' stuff - but actually the single seater server is far worse.

Over half the field cannot drive with minimum basic competency. I'm referring here to the standard of driving I see from 8 year olds trying their kart for the first time - yes, over HALF THE FIELD are substantially, and I do mean substantially, worse.

What I saw yesterday was apalling, utterly totally and completely shit.

When I first logged onto the single seater server following a request that came over the admin messaging system I found that the driving was so attrociously aweful from so many drivers that after 10 minutes watching I decided to make my presence felt not with bans, but with my STCC race stewarding hotkey to red flag a race.

Yup, I actually red flagged a public race because the overall standard was so appalling that I could not believe what I was watching.

I've already made changes to the system, I observed that most problems where caused by mid race joiners, i've seen this pattern in reports too. Mid race joining is now restricted to 1 attempt maximum. This has had a small positive effect but by itself has not done enough.

More is needed to clean up the single seater server, because more people think they can drive the fox than are actually capable of it and unfortunately this is the entry level car.

I need to see a substantial improvement in the driving standards of the single seater community before I open the second server and double my woes.

I will be keeping a closer eye on the server in the coming weeks, I think part of our problem is that we're a target for all those who wanted to race single seaters but had found their way onto the ban list of the other single seater server operator whilst we where only running tin tops.

Therefore I am going to ask the admins to be a little strictre on the single seater server for the time being, until such time as overall standards have reached basic minimum competency for small children, rather than only a small selection of front runners showing any modicum of ability.

I'd like all competitors on the single seater server to keep the following basic racing rules in mind:

1) If there is a car infront dont hit it.
2) If the car infront is sideways, stationary, or otherwise involved in an accident - slow down and dont hit it.
3) Dont overtake under yellow flag. LFS can be quite slow to put out a yellow flag, so be on your guard when approaching black spots.
4) If you hit a car in an accident, the resulting accident is YOUR fault, not theirs.
5) If you are arguing with another driver, check your replay, because from what i've seen you cant drive either.

Yup, the standards are fairly bad, I really think there needs to be a minimum level of competancy included in the CTRA system.

By that I mean, if you do not manage to acheive a certain laptime over a certain number of laps, you get kicked and told to practice offline.

I would agree about the standards on the SS server. Often very few score points because there are so many telepits and rejoins there aren't that many eligible. An example of this was one of my races at FE1 yesterday where I was involved in T1 chaos, limped back to the pits, repaired and still came back to finish 5th or 6th out of 20. FE is especially difficult because of the short lap, the high kerbs and objects which quite rightly stop excessive cutting.

The faster drivers do not tend to help matters by ignoring yellow flags or not lifting when they see an accident, although it can be risky to slow down as there is often the danger of the guy behind not slowing down and creaming into you making matters worse.

In my opinion, opening server 2 on time would help things:

1) Faster drivers would migrate to the new server. With a reduced speed differential amongst the drivers there would be less lapping on the shorter server 1 tracks so fewer accidents.

2) There would be less tension on the server, because of point 1. The pause between races is usually filled with drivers arguing, often about lapping others. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone was denegrating me for not leaping off the track when they come near I would be less inclined to move over for them.

3) With the faster (or in my case, more careful ) drivers gone the opportunity to score points should become easier, depending on laptimes, which would possibly reduce the manic scramble for places in T1.

I don't think Server 2 would cause you as many problems as server 1 as I guess there are some longer and faster tracks amongst the choice which spreads things out a bit and reduces mayhem.

told you so Becky (hehe)

I think the 1 rejoin attempt max is a VERY good idea.

Unfortunatly it seems:
Smaller tracks (FE_Club and SO_Classic mainly) provide the best racing, but also the most interference by the clueless ones.
Longer tracks (AS3, KY_GP) have the least destructive interference, but the racing can tend to get strung out. (all just imho of course).

Thanks for the quick fix, and to see what we are dealing with!

Quote from danowat :

Yup, the standards are fairly bad, I really think there needs to be a minimum level of competancy included in the CTRA system.

By that I mean, if you do not manage to acheive a certain laptime over a certain number of laps, you get kicked and told to practice offline.

I'm sorry, but what is the obsession around here with lap times?

I stand to be corrected here, but it seems to me that Becky's post was talking about basic racing etiquette and race craft.

What has lap times got to do with it?

If a clean driver can't get the required lap time over a certain number of laps because a bunch lunatics keep shunting him off the track, why on earth should the victim be kicked from the server?

(Not having a pop at you personally, by the way danowat , it's just that I honestly think it's more to do with how people are behaving rather than how fast they are going.)

Because, which ever way you slice it, laptimes are an indication of a fast driver.

Of course, they are not an indication of a clean driver at all, but in my experiance, it is the slower, less competant and less skilled drivers that are causing most of the problems in the SS servers.

Quote from danowat :

Because, which ever way you slice it, laptimes are an indication of a fast driver.

Of course, they are not an indication of a clean driver at all, but in my experiance, it is the slower, less competant and less skilled drivers that are causing most of the problems in the SS servers.

Yes, I take your point. I suppose it's inevitable that slower, more hesitant drivers are more likely to cause bottlenecks and logjams when in the presence of faster drivers.

However, would you not concede that it should perhaps be incumbant upon the faster, more experienced drivers to show restraint when racing on the slower, entry level servers? The purpose of those servers is, after all, to initiate and educate new drivers.

Perhaps the role of the experienced drivers on those servers could be more that of a mentor, rather than a competitor?

Of course, but a competition server, which the CTRA system essentially is, is not really the place for this type of mentoring.

I think that when the second tier of the single seater system opens the problems should ease, but untill then I would strongly suggest that anyone venturing into the single seater servers should at least be able to attain a 103% laptime of the current WR over race distance offline before attempting to race on the SS servers.

The FOX ISN'T an easy car to drive, infact, I am wondering if there needs to be a FOX trainer introduced, maybe with some intake restriction, just to get those with little or no single seater experiance initiated into the ways of the FOX.

Personally, I think things will smooth out over time, the single seater servers are new ATM and everyone is clamouring to get their license up, as soon as the second tier is open, everything will settle down.

Nice post!

Maybe only access to SS when Silver license is required in 'normal' CTRA? Or like mentioned before, with required laptime, or pre-qualifying for access to a certain track?

One more thing to remember, don't move your car if you have had an accident untill road is clear.
Check the little map if someone is coming!
If try to get on track from grass you have a big chance of spinning out on the road again.

There is so many accidents coused by this, i can avoid a car staying still but it's really tricky to avoid a car moving back or forth sideways on the track.

In some cases like SO chicane of death it's better to hit shift+p, couse many times the car is wrecked anyways becouse of the steel walls.

I have raced in SS server a few times and i thought it was the cleanest server...Maybe it was just my luck to have some clean races but i think the xfg/xrg server is worse.You can't complete a race without a crash unless you start from front grid.Some people just ignore the rules to get a few more points.The points system itself might be making racers more aggressive.(No offence)

I'm sure Becky mentioned the possibility of opening up the SS2 server to those drivers who had proved that they have a certain level of racecraft and etiquette in the tintops, eg Gold/Platinum or above.

These drivers already know what is expected of them under the CTRA system, and although they may be a bit off the pace to begin with if they don't have much experience in the FOX, they are the ones who are most likely to improve quickly but also not interfere with the truly fast drivers in the same manner as drivers who are new to the whole CTRA system.

This would also maybe help reduce the amount of time drivers are waiting due to full races if some of them can jump onto the other server, and let those who are able to use the FJR actually use it.

Quote from danowat :

Of course, but a competition server, which the CTRA system essentially is, is not really the place for this type of mentoring.

Agreed ... hmmm, so it's not really a good place to learn either is it ...

Thank you danowat!

Time for a new thread methinks

I'm glad that you posted this, Becky, 'cause I had the same impression on the two occasions I raced on the ss-server. I just didn't have the guts to complain because I didn't bother to file complaints out of laziness. I just didn't feel like reviewing 15-lap-races several times in order to identify all the offensive drivers. I know I should have, though .

Anyway, about identifying bad drivers by their lap times: Somehow I feel this does not work too well with the FOX. I was under the impression that even some of the worst drivers who repeatedly ignored blue and/or yellow flags, rejoined traffic recklessly etc. were capable of lap times within the 106% mark -- if they were lucky enough to get a clean lap, that is. So, +1 for being more strict on the ss-servers. I hope this will eventually help to make ss-servers as pleasent a place to race on as the race2 server f.e.

Quote from Bean0 :

I'm sure Becky mentioned the possibility of opening up the SS2 server to those drivers who had proved that they have a certain level of racecraft and etiquette in the tintops, eg Gold/Platinum or above.

These drivers already know what is expected of them under the CTRA system, and although they may be a bit off the pace to begin with if they don't have much experience in the FOX, they are the ones who are most likely to improve quickly but also not interfere with the truly fast drivers in the same manner as drivers who are new to the whole CTRA system.

This would also maybe help reduce the amount of time drivers are waiting due to full races if some of them can jump onto the other server, and let those who are able to use the FJR actually use it.

My train of thought as well Beano Gold and up would be good.

The problem with the SS is that to achieve the downforce required you have to run at a pace the set up dictates IE wing settings, one thing I learned quickly running the Fox within the Gentlefoot series was to up the wings to achieve the grip at the pace I was able to run and then to gradually reduce the wing settings once I was running consistant laps and this way gradually work my way down to running within a second or so of WR pace with a race setup.

It's no good Inexperienced drivers asking for a set as they will not be up to speed for that set up and will end up spinning on most corners unless they add four or five clicks of downforce.

Would it be a possibility to create a tier below the FOX? There are sooo many drivers that are just appalling in the SS classes, they are veyr different from a tin top and people are forgetting that you can't actually hit anything in a SS and get away with it!

Quote from danowat :

By that I mean, if you do not manage to acheive a certain laptime over a certain number of laps, you get kicked and told to practice offline.

iirc this is still in and set to 120%

maybe the mrt wouldnt be such a bad idea after all
its small enough to dodge most pile ups ... hard enough to drive to discuorage most who are clearly on the wrong server and non df dependant to give a simpler progression to ss racing

best of all its highly unpopular so instead of starting out on a car everybody thinks he can drive you make them start out on a car most know theyre crap in on good days and flat out dangerous on bad ones

imho one of the first step to getting good drivers is to first let them know theyre rubbish ... teach the thome humility

During the beta test this came up in my mind excatly. I never mentioned do. You need certain skills to run the FOX. Even it is a entry level car.

Like several posts here made, to get control of the situation make the entry level higher. Like say silver or gold license racers are allowed to race on SS server. That way your are certain that the people drive there know the rules of FAIR racing and also act that way.

edit: after some thoughts i think you should have entry levels at each server. Let them first get there license on Server 1 ( race1).
At least that way you sort out a lot of racers. If your commited well then your not able to race other server. (just a thought)

Get the MRT in! Such a great car

I'm thinking of a few possible solutions at the moment:

The MRT is a possibility, although it could well kill the system.

A reduction of entries on the 1st tier down from 20 to about 17, this should alleviate some problems on the shorter tracks. 2nd and 3rd tiers to be amalgamated on a time sharing basis (ie: Race 2 to become part time STD/TBO and part time GT2/GTR with 32 cars & a similar system on Single 2).

Changing Single 1 to an intake restricted FOX training car. Dropping BF1 from Single 3 and putting FOX/FJR and FJR/FO8 on rotation on single 2.

I think it's most likely one of these changes is likely to occur soon.

Just my thoughts on this...............

MRT, no, it will cause more problems, the car isn't any easier to handle than the FOX is.

Reduction of entries in the tier 1 server?, could work, certainly if combined with the opening of tier 2 servers.

I personally think that a restricted FOX training would be a BIG bonus for the tier 1 server.

I strongly suggest to remove FE club reverse from the track rotation, I had the worst racing there yesterday and days before. The track is so narrow and needs a really sticky setup that handles the curbs well that people crash at every second turn. there are always cars on the side of the track (good case) or on the track crashed out.

this track is just not suitable for public racing with so many unexperienced racers. fe club normal is somewhat better as everybody knows it and the turns aren't that screwed up like the 1st turn on rev or the chicane.

Is there an InSim function to send a server side stored setup to users? I would gladly contribute the setups I have to give new racers something to start with. As I have noticed due to the track changes a lot of people are caught off guard, and have no suitable setup for the track and this causes a lot of accidents (happened to myself yesterday, when I was using a setup I have never driven before, though I didn't take out anybody luckily)

You could implement a request setup button on the entry screen when the licence details pop up, if it is possible.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm thinking of a few possible solutions at the moment:

The MRT is a possibility, although it could well kill the system.

A reduction of entries on the 1st tier down from 20 to about 17, this should alleviate some problems on the shorter tracks. 2nd and 3rd tiers to be amalgamated on a time sharing basis (ie: Race 2 to become part time STD/TBO and part time GT2/GTR with 32 cars & a similar system on Single 2).

Changing Single 1 to an intake restricted FOX training car. Dropping BF1 from Single 3 and putting FOX/FJR and FJR/FO8 on rotation on single 2.

I think it's most likely one of these changes is likely to occur soon.

A restricted FOX will help IMO. The replays I am seeing though has alot of people touching the grass and spinning so hopefully running slower cars will help this, but there is a possibility of making it worse with less downforce maybe? I donno.

Having setups available for download through the CTRA software would rock! I dont know if it would be possible though.

Hmmm........I wonder if it would be possible to use the CTRA system to force a setup?, would certainly level the field a little............