Hi,

I've just joined and think LFS is great but I have a question. Does anyone know of a simulator for real life driving that I can use on the PC? I haven't started driving yet but would like to get used to a car before I go for lessons. I know theres nothing better than the real thing but I'm getting a G25 in the hopes that it will at least teach me manual gear changing.

Would this game help in anyway regarding real life driving? Obviously its a racing sim but as far as i've seen, if you have a decent wheel, theres potentially a lot to learn.

I remember a sim I got awhile ago but I can't find it and it didnt look like it supported a steering wheel or not one with a clutch pedal as well.

Any help would be great.

Quote from Weally :

Hi,

I've just joined and think LFS is great but I have a question. Does anyone know of a simulator for real life driving that I can use on the PC? I haven't started driving yet but would like to get used to a car before I go for lessons. I know theres nothing better than the real thing but I'm getting a G25 in the hopes that it will at least teach me manual gear changing.

Would this game help in anyway regarding real life driving? Obviously its a racing sim but as far as i've seen, if you have a decent wheel, theres potentially a lot to learn.

I remember a sim I got awhile ago but I can't find it and it didnt look like it supported a steering wheel or not one with a clutch pedal as well.

Any help would be great.

I don't know of any, but don't panic about using a manual, my wife was terrified of driving a manual yet in ten short minutes in a real car I had taught her how to use the clutch and shifter. Now she's wonders what all the fuss was about. It really isn't difficult once you understand what is going on.

No, you probably won't really learn much about driving a real car with a manual transmission by playing LFS. The clutch simulation at the moment is not the greatest, and without feeling the car's acceleration in the seat of your pants, modulating it is nearly impossible without using enough revs to fry a real clutch in no time.

LFS may be able to give you the vaguest idea of how hard it may be possible to push in real life and may also give you a feel for racecraft. Having said that, LFS should in no way be used as a substitute for real experience.

Thanks for the replies. I know its no substitute for the real thing, I've drove my girlfriends car a few times but what I mean is do you think it will help with coordination and foot control? I have a heavy foot and think it may be a nice primer to get used to it.

I've read about some simulations and what I gather, it can help with real driving on a basic level but im more interested in a real world sim to get used to the road like how to drive on the motorway/highway, what lanes to be in, roundabouts etc. In other words I wanted to know if there was a sim that would be of educational purposes.

If you've never used a wheel and pedals before, a couple of hours in a race sim might help you before your first driving lesson. If you've already had a couple of driving lessons then I'd say there's little you can get from a sim.

I'd say if you've never used a manual before in RL but have in LFS, do not attempt to shift gears like in the sim. You will no doubt be told how to operate the clutch, it's not difficult so there's no need to panic. When you are told how to use the clutch, make a mental note of the sequence and ask to practice it a couple of times while the ignition is turned off. Most importantly, be calm. There is no rush, you are not in a race.

When you're doing your driving lessons remember this: Your lessons are time-slot based, therefore, the easiest way to get through them is to not rush anything. The more you are in a hurry, the more nervous you will get.

...
i.e. there are so-called "driving simulators" that focus on giving you the illusion of going in actual traffic. But those tend not to focus on giving you the experience of a realistic (ally working) suspension, use of steering, clutch & shift control, etc.
Those are aimed mostly at people getting to know their limits on the "real road" prior to taking any driving lessons - or maybe as addition to that.

[(I've "played" a demo of one of those out of simple curiosity and have in fact a mixed opinion about this. It might help some sort people who are afraid of driving in the first place. On the other hand, it might as well disturb their self-esteem even further since as i stated above the "car" in those simulations doesn't react the same way as a real one and it can be quite tricky to learn how to direct that virtual "thingy" through the obstacles displayed on the screen - which might require, again, some experience in using a computer, esp. knowing the keyboard. )]

That is for numerous reasons:
One - it would take a pretty awesome (and therefor exaggeratingly expensive) effort to combine the complex field of racing simulation with an even more complex simulation of a real world road system
with ALL of its different moving-about entities and in general its all-connecting environment.

TWO - Driving schools don't want to teach you how to conquer the edge of things but to make you a responsible and safely acting driver.

Actually, the nearest you will get to border-line driving is if you take part in a drivers' safety training - unless you chose to go to a trackday, that is. (i have yet done neither of this in real life - And just like Millions of other people I didn't yet kill anyone after about 200000km of real world driving)

So there you are: You obviously did purchase a S2-license, which will now enable you to enjoy the virtual equivalent of race-driving -- and will teach you quite some stuff about car-controll in the process, I'm sure. But as for the clutch: the point of friction is at a slightly different spot of pedal-travel in each car, shouldn't be off the first third of travel-room afair from my driving lessons. Also the pedal-resistance does vary in every car. But -say- unless you realy pump up the revs (and make a fool of yourself doing so): When you miss this specific point and thus let go of the clutch too early -- you'll most likely stall your engine in the process. The usual cars you use to go from a to b won't have the power to let the wheels spin at low revs, at least on a clean and dry road.

O.K. now being late fall that can, of course, be a little bit different sometimes. But in general you shouldn't expect to learn ALL that there is in driving through practise in lfs. As far as real-world driving skills go, i think lfs is just the wrong way to go.

In lfs you always try to max out your grip, your speed and your tyre wear. You don't actually care for overall wear on your car since the imaginary box-crew does that for you and won't require any payment. Fuel consumption is as important as to simply make it across the finish line without "being helped" elsewhere. You always get a brand-new overall car, engine and tyres at the start of every race.
Actually, if money is a concern for you as much as it is for me you'll not come anywhere near the limits of your car in most normal situations and conditions. On the other hand, if you insist of going bonkers, please tell us in advance, where that is going to be. I will then leave that specific part of the road clear of my travels that day

Oh, by the way: Stick-shifting is not that hard to learn or to remember. Even for a guy like me who is stuck with a (not really that bad) automatic 4-speed for most of the time ('94 W124, 2.2l, 1.6t saloon)

Have fun.
& drive safely.

_______________________________
In lfs I am a happy little racer.
In RL I am happy to go places by car.

If you've never driven a car before your best bet would be to get someone to take you to a big empty space and teach you the basics of how to drive, I can't really see any point in paying someone to teach you the basics of driving, it should come naturally within about five minutes. I remember the first car I drove was a Morris Minor when I was about 12, never stalled it and was into reversing within a couple of minutes, it's really not very hard

What you will find harder though is learning to drive in traffic, so much of it is awareness so TBH I can't see a sim being helpful without realistic (ie. retardidly) behaving traffic and a big panoramic screen.

Quote from Forbin :

No, you probably won't really learn much about driving a real car with a manual transmission by playing LFS. The clutch simulation at the moment is not the greatest (...)

I'm curious about this.. how does the clutch actually work in LSF? Say you give it a little bit of throttle and slowly release the clutch, will the transition from "standing still, high revs" to "moving, low revs" be smooth and realistic, or what? Does the transition kick in at one given point after you've lifted the clutch slightly, or does it kick in once you lift it even the slightest? IMO it's very impressive if they managed to replicate this.

AFAIK it has no transition - it automatically stops the engine from stalling by whatever motion of the clutch is required, however if it didn't do it the engine wouldn't actually stall.

I believe the way it works is:
- 100% clutch means the clutch plates are completely separate and there is no force transmitted to the wheels (obviously)
- from 99-0% clutch, there is an increase in the locking force exhibited by the clutch, although I'm unsure of the exact behavior of this region (i.e. linear, exponential). This region of the clutch curve scales with the engine's torque curve.
- at 0% clutch, the locking force is either many times greater than the peak torque output of the engine or infinite. Just dumping the clutch (with autoclutch off) at 3000 RPM without any throttle at all in the XFG results in a bit of wheelspin.

In other words, it is possible to do a smooth low-revs start in LFS, but it's not as easy as in real life.

EDIT: I just did some testing. The region between 99-1% is completely linear. The amount of torque transfered ramps up linearly with clutch travel.

Quote from Forbin :

I believe the way it works is:
- 100% clutch means the clutch plates are completely separate and there is no force transmitted to the wheels (obviously)
- from 99-0% clutch, there is an increase in the locking force exhibited by the clutch, although I'm unsure of the exact behavior of this region (i.e. linear, exponential). This region of the clutch curve scales with the engine's torque curve.
- at 0% clutch, the locking force is either many times greater than the peak torque output of the engine or infinite. Just dumping the clutch (with autoclutch off) at 3000 RPM without any throttle at all in the XFG results in a bit of wheelspin.

In other words, it is possible to do a smooth low-revs start in LFS, but it's not as easy as in real life.

I'm quite sure it's linear, that's why many people set sort of a "bite point" manually through DXTweak... Also, you probably won't learn any starting with LfS, as there is no punishment if your revs are to low... Normally a car would stall, but in Lfs, the auto-autoclutch (wrote that intentionally) kicks in...

@OP: What LfS can teach you (if you pay attention), is how looking and thinking ahead can save you from problems, how smoothness can improve the lifespan of parts (in LfS, pretty much the only thing modeled well enough for that are the tyres, other things hopefully soon to come) and that having absolute control over your car is the most important thing and way better than the idiot's "speed is all"...

Quote from DrBen :

...
One - it would take a pretty awesome (and therefor exaggeratingly expensive) effort to combine the complex field of racing simulation with an even more complex simulation of a real world road system
with ALL of its different moving-about entities and in general its all-connecting environment.

It's called Test Drive Unlimited.

Traffic patterns, retards, stalling etc. No, the tire physics aren't LFS, but you could practice starting, shifting, driving with traffic and whatnot and if not driving near the limit the tire physics won't bother you

Probably the most useful thing I could think of doing with regards to learning to drive (at least the UK test) would be the maneouvres like parrallel parking, 3-point turn and reversing round a corner.
With LFS you can at least get an idea of the car's reaction to different angles and steering input and understand the concept before you attempt it.

Quote from ajp71 :

If you've never driven a car before your best bet would be to get someone to take you to a big empty space and teach you the basics of how to drive, I can't really see any point in paying someone to teach you the basics of driving, it should come naturally within about five minutes.

Sorry, I forgot that in most other country there do apply different and most of all much less restrictive regulations on how to get a drivers permit. So part of my answer above should be taken as from a "German" point of view, really - obtaining a license here requires at least some time and quite some money

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

It's called Test Drive Unlimited.

Traffic patterns, retards, stalling etc. No, the tire physics aren't LFS, but you could practice starting, shifting, driving with traffic and whatnot and if not driving near the limit the tire physics won't bother you

I have that game myself and my impression is that apart from the sensation of a wrong start (i.e. stalling) there is almost nothing in this "game" that really adds up to teach somebody basic driving skills. It's quite an enjoyable game though, if you're a true petrolhead, so no offense . Most likely you will find that overall the "physics" are not accurate at all in the game, regardless of the "ultra-realistic" mode you can switch to if you made to a certain 'experience level.'
As for the traffic simulation: the other AI-cars brake like they hit a wall - i.e. there's no smoothness at all - and won't indicate their motions that far in advance like i am used to on the road. Well they even change back and forth from one lane to another without any given need for that. Another thing vital to high-speed motorway survival: overtaking on the outward lane shouldn't be allowed - in Germany overtaking on the right is 1. an offense 2. a cause that automatically gives the guy who did it full responsibility for whatever this maneuver may result in e.g. a crash (even if the faster guy is not personally involved in any crushed metal on his own). Actually the AI does not seem to follow any other rules than stopping at red lights. But that's probably a biased notice because the game is supposed to regenerate a somewhat American environment.

Quote from Monkeymike :

Probably the most useful thing I could think of doing with regards to learning to drive (at least the UK test) would be the maneuvers like parallel parking, 3-point turn and reversing round a corner.
With LFS you can at least get an idea of the car's reaction to different angles and steering input and understand the concept before you attempt it.

for that. I guess that applies to almost all modern sims: at _very_ low speeds you can somewhat get a "feel" for the dimensions of a car and also, but vaguely, how much room you'll need to pull up from a certain speed.


The Pro's for lfs I think lie mostly in another sector: You can experience on-the-edge behavior of a car that doesn't come with anti-lock-brakes, let alone electronic stability management. And you can encounter loss of grip when traveling over the grass which might give the unexperienced a small preview of what winter conditions might feel like.
I think I personally learned quite a deal on what to do and what not to do in a real driver's seat. LFS however helped me in experiencing those things, that nobody in his right mind would try on a real road.
Of course lfs cannot be seen as a substitute for real driving experience.

Greets

I did think about this myself a while back.
I've never had lessons but I think if you can judge distances and get the hang of trying to guage what people are likely to do in certain situations it must help a little, even if the actual driving model isn't quite right.

I want to get lessons and thought about picking up a G25 to help with my clutch control. I went out a couple of times years ago with my mum but that was my big problem and I lost interest.
Sadly that's the one area LFS can't help me, even if I did get a G25. Once I'm moving it's fine, but picking away was my problem area, stalling all the damn time.

I really want to learn now though, because getting to my band rehearsals by public transport is a 2 hour nightmare journey for something that would take about 30 mins by car.

There is one called 3D Driving School but I find that is doesn't seem very realistic but why not try it out.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

This is looking promising, watch the videos...

http://www.simax.es/index_eng.htm

http://stage6.divx.com/user/gr ... ax-Project--First-Trailer

Doesn't look like it is available to the public or it will cost a few bob.

Quote from DrBen :

Sorry, I forgot that in most other country there do apply different and most of all much less restrictive regulations on how to get a drivers permit. So part of my answer above should be taken as from a "German" point of view, really - obtaining a license here requires at least some time and quite some money

You don't have empty car parks and industrial estates in Germany?

As somebody who passed their (UK) driving test 20 years ago, and who (puts on flat cap, lights pipe and puts slippers on) passed the RoSPA Advanced drivers test this year, I'll give my tuppence worth.

You can certainly use LFS and other sims to practice certain techniques (I also use GTR2 with the excellent Nurburgring). Choose a practice mode on South City for example, as it has lane markings etc. You can use it to measure limit points for bends, you can learn the benefits of smooth steering (and in the UK) how to smooth out pull/push steering, rather than shuffling the wheel! You can learn what over and understeer are, without hurting yourself or running up large repair bills. You can practice braking in a straight line for bends, getting the right gear in plenty of time without rushing and balancing the car on the throttle as you go round the bends.

Choose a lower powered car and try to drive it as you would expect to on the road. Not at hyperspeed, not at the limits of grip, but smoothly, looking ahead and getting cross views wherever possible. Then try it with an LX4/6 or the RA, which are natrually skittish cars. These will highlight the over-application of the steering, brakes and throttle.

There is no substitute for real driving, and no sim will teach you how to drive, but you can use it to test things you learn on real roads.

IMHO of course.

Have fun and good luck

Aside from all said in this thread clutches tend to be different enough in feel that as a beginner you almost have to re-learn from one vehicle to the next, so even if LFS did a perfect job you still would have trouble on YOUR car (unless you drive an XFG )

Its just practice and seat time, you will learn it. Though it may not hurt to read up on how it all works, aside from being pretty interesting its nice to have an idea what all those levers and buttons are doing

Quote from RedCoupe :

Aside from all said in this thread clutches tend to be different enough in feel that as a beginner you almost have to re-learn from one vehicle to the next, so even if LFS did a perfect job you still would have trouble on YOUR car (unless you drive an XFG )

If you have to re-learn how to feel a clutch from car to car (unless it's ridiculously light with no feel) your probably doing something wrong. I suppose I got used to driving new cars pretty quickly though as the majority of my early driving was moving cars around at a garage and nearly always a different car. Getting the feel of all the pedals is pretty vital and if it doesn't come naturally it may be worth getting a driving instructor to give you a lesson to get the basics right (should only take half an hour) before you go off and practice and have lessons properly.

Thanks for the help guys.

I have another question. I know theres no substitue for real driving but is there anything I can change in the set that will change the way one of the car's feel compared to a bog standard car like the gear ratio settings etc? I figure the closer I can get it to feel like your average low powered car, the better.

I know from my girlfriends driving, shes often in 4th gear to get a steady 40 odd mph but in this sim, as they're racing car's (or tuned slightly more than normal car's) they often get past this speed in 2nd sometimes 1st.

See my sig for road going sets.

About gearing though, revs have a lot to do with it. IRL you're not typically thrashing the engine to the limit in every gear, hence the later changes. My Dad used to have a 106 GTI, that did almost spot on 40mph in first but only if you took the engine to the redline.