While tyre physics in LFS is very advanced and on the whole quite good, the curves could probably still use some tweaking. I think that it would be nice for Scawen to have in-depth views and suggestions for corrections to tyre physicsc. This is a quote from another thread that demonstrates the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Quote from Kid_Paddle :

the problems with the tyre is in the grip, and the way cars are loosing it
in LFS, the loss of grip, and it's recovery seems to be linear, you loose it step by step, and you recover it step by step, and the problem of gip at low speed should comes from this
in a real car, especially with slicks tyres, the loss of grip comes suddenly, and it is possible to catch up with only small errors
so in lfs, to be fast we are always sliding a lot, and it makes the tyres warm
look at real racing, they are not sliding like this (of course they slide a bit )

Constructive cricism with suggestions as to what would make the tyre model more realistic. Seing as during the development of the language patches Scawen recieved great feedback from people using the other languages and this allowed him to do speedy and excellent work, I think everyone could really help him by suggesting what the problems may be caused by - not so much what the problems are. This way, once he gets round to fixing them he can change the right things and get them out of the way quickly. What are your views?

I guess this might be already on his list, but due to compatiblity issues it will come in a later patch with more physics improvements

A hundred people could say something is not right when in fact those hundred people could be completely wrong. Apart from giving feedback, I wouldn't consider myself qualified enough to make suggestions about how things should be changed when it comes to tyre physics etc.

One may say "the tyres don't regain traction quickly enough, they are too slippery", but there may be some other issue causing this (suspension, for example). So sometimes suggestions or complaints about some aspect of LFS may seem relative when the problem may not lie there at all.

Some members of course have extended knowledge that can bring constructive changes, but many of us are just commenting on what we believe to be happening or what we feel should happen when we are driving.

I guess what I am trying to say is that many comments have been considered and digested by the devs and to see the same comments reiterated in yet another topic may not be so helpful to them. If you are a bit of an expert by all means share your views, but if like me your knowledge is not broad enough to make accurate and detailed comments about engineering and physics in relation to LFS, please just give feedback on what you are actually experiencing behind the wheel.

I often hear people say "LFS used to be much harder for me, but now I don't find the tyres and grip levels to be any real problem". Perhaps a change in driving style or setup has quelled their concerns? If we consider our feedback to the devs before posting it we are more likely to add value to the topic.

2c

I would like to have a test patch once the aerodynamics model is fixed, simply to see how this changes setups and therefore the balance of the car. I think that running setups the way they are at the moment could be a the souce of problem in the way the car drives (I'm not saying it behaves inapporopriately disregarding areo - just unexpectedly due to the setup). You can't expect to change a dozen things at once and accurately achieve the results you were hoping for. The only observations regarding the tyre model that we can make are on non-downforce cars. This would really split the community up though.

How do we know that any actual tire data was used for the tire physics as implemented in LFS? I know this is hard to find, but Avon does provide such information, and there are also some good sources concerning tire physics and simulating it on the web.

I think Scawen knows pretty well what's missing/wrong/bogus in his simulation, and no amount of backseat physicists is going to help him yet change anything.

Maybe the current behaviour is related to the tyres, maybe to the missing (?) bending of the car body, maybe to the simplistic aero model or maybe it's just us percieving it wrong due to the missing G forces. Whatever it is, WE don't know anything of how his physics model exactly works so actually all of our 'tips & tricks of how to fix the physics' are useless. Actually I think Scawen is pretty fed up reading the same old mumbo jumbo all the day.

Quote from axus :

I would like to have a test patch once the aerodynamics model is fixed

Quote from axus :

This would really split the community up though.

I think those two bits pretty much summarize it.

I don't think we'll have incompatible test patches publically released - and as AndroidXP said, it's all rather pointless if it's just an undirected bunch of hypothesis.

Oh, also - could you do me a favour and kind of shorten your signature a bit? It's usually bigger than your posts and takes up quite alot of screenspace for people that don't browse with their browser in fullscreen mode.

Quote from xaotik :

Oh, also - could you do me a favour and kind of shorten your signature a bit? It's usually bigger than your posts and takes up quite alot of screenspace for people that don't browse with their browser in fullscreen mode.

Shortened for your pleasure.

Quote from axus :

Shortened for your pleasure.

Much appreciated.

Quote from AndroidXP :

...backseat physicists...

My favourite phrase of the week

I'm of the same thoughts as others have said, I'm in no way qualified to tell the devs anything about tyre-physics, aero dynamics, car mechanics. But I can comment on what I feel about the game - I think its pretty good as it is TBH, maybe cos I've got used to the feel of the game already. I dont like the fact that newcomers dont seem to be able to drive LFS atall sometimes, but maybe thats just them.

what he said -^
also, seeing as the devs worked quite closely with the guys who developed and built the MRT and the Raceabout, I think they have pretty good information on how the car should behave, what to improve, etc...

Quote from AndroidXP :

... no amount of backseat physicists is going to help him...

maybe to the missing (?) bending of the car body, maybe to the simplistic aero model

No comment

What's so funny about that? I stated that it could be thousands of things but we simply don't know it. We have no idea what is currently simulated and how it is simulated so all our "maybe" guesswork is useless.

Quote from AndroidXP :

What's so funny about that? I stated that it could be thousands of things but we simply don't know it. We have no idea what is currently simulated and how it is simulated so all our "maybe" guesswork is useless.

Even if it doesn't help the devs too much it could become a very interesting physics discussion.

Ah well, then go on and discuss tyre physics the 410923th time. It's just that it is discussed again and again and again and again and ...

It was done all the time back at the RSC forums and it's done all the time here. You'd probably get to the same conclusion the RSC threads got and it will change the same the RSC threads did. Namely: nothing.

But I don't want to spoil your 'fun' in discussing this, so go on

Quote from AndroidXP :

and it will change the same the RSC threads did. Namely: nothing.

At least since i play/know LFS, tyre physics/parameters had changed 2 times. And there was some kind of discussion before. If Scawen was influenced by that discussion ... only he knows.

The point is, these discussions always end up on a way too primitive level to mean anything to Scawen. Sure he gets the general hints of what might need improvement, but seriously, the tyres needing improvement is the oldest and most frequently mentioned thing ever. You might guess he got the hint by now

The general conclusion of all these threads is that the tyres don't have enough grip in certain situations (low speed) or that they don't change from grip to sliding and vice versa in a realistic manner. The very few times it actually goes beyond that (look at the recent RSC thread with Todd Wasson commenting on it), it still stays in the compeltely theoretical part because the one person who actually knows what hes talking about (as he is working on a sim by himself) keeps shut about the interesting details, because that would give away too much info from his own sim.



Oh and on your argumentation regarding "there was some kind of discussion before", that's like saying "I may suggest that the next generation of CPUs should be faster" and if the the next gen is there you're all like "LOOK LOOK, they took my suggestion and improved the CPU speed, they owe me money". Predicting/suggesting inevitable things isn't really... you know. Also I bet noone saw the tyre deformation and noone saw the awsomely detailed tyre heat/wear coming.