Ok, so this idea is sort of odd, I know, but it just came to me and I wanted to post it.

It might be a good idea to include one car that is uneditable (except for fuel and maybe tires for long/short races) for us to drive in hotlap mode to better define true driving skill. This car would already be setup nicely. A good rear wheel drive car, weighing maybe 2800 lbs with 350 HP. Who knows, just something that handles well and is fun to drive.

The main point of this would be so that we could gauge actual driving skill as opposed to driving skill + tuning skill. I know, personally, when I work on a hotlap, I always wonder whether it's my line/entry and exit speed/braking points or my setup that needs more improvement. This would eliminate that frustration, and also create a very competitive new playing field. Just a thought. Tell me what you think.

PS: This idea could also work in multiplayer and would again show who the true drivers are.

As I've said many times before, setups are made to suit the driver, and driving with a setup that does not suit you slows you down quite dramatically. You cannot expect newbies to be happy with a very fast and unstable set and you cannot expect aliens to be happy with a super stable, understeer-prone set.

Case in point, my old Grippy sets. They were loved by people who were still developing their skills at the time (like myself), but highly criticized by more experienced drivers for their massive understeer.

Alright, well if you want to get on the subject of newbies, this idea is actually perfect for them. Let's say a noob is trying to setup their car and it keeps oversteering and generally has wonky handling. Your average noob is not going to know the finer points of how to alter their car. Setups are suited for the driver, yes, but what if the driver doesn't know what they are doing?

Something like having an unchangeable car wouldn't hurt anything. It would take you a dozen, maybe two dozen laps to learn the car's behavior, and that's it. You would then know how to drive it fairly well, and since its characteristics never change, you would just build upon what you know. So, it would be user friendly, and create a nice competitive niche.

i dont like the idea at all, forbin already explained, almost everbody needs a different setup.
if u want to know whats ur mistake, watch the WR replays, and if u want a good set goto www.setupfield.teaminferno.hu

I like the idea, everyone likes personal setups, but you dont NEED them to go fast. Factory stock style racing is about adapting to the car, not adapating the car to you...


I doubt this would ever be added though unfortunatly due to its arguability

I like this idea actually. But to have a specific car that is non-editable, well... why not just have a Hotlap mode that takes every car in LFS, and LFSW could have a 'Factory' or 'Stock' hotlap rank, where all the cars would use the stock setup supplied. This would be pretty fun in my opinion, considering it brings in a WHOLE nother aspect of hotlapping, rather than being beat by someone who uses some stupid bogus setup to beat your best time :zombie:. This would rely on skill, but it would be fun for everyone, because overall it just might determine your overall skill and rank for a fast time in the LFS racing community.

Of course, LFS would need perfected default/stock setups, but that isn't so hard. To me, setups only account for about 50% of how your driving preference is, the other half, or even more than half, is your skill level to actually drive fast. I could take any average setup that doesn't fit 'my style' :rolleyes: and after about 20 or more laps, it flows with me, and I can get fast times. Of course the setup has to be correctly made for it to be done, but there are loads of fast sets for one car/track combo, and they all feel different in some way. But that does not mean you cannot get a fast time in it just because it doesn't suit you. If you test drive real cars before buying, you aren't going to go and change steering, caster, suspension etc. right away, cars have limitations and you have to deal with it when making a decision before buying. Unlike LFS (where changing loads of settings on a seemingly stock car is possible), this kind of limitation of having a 'stock' car feel is lacking in LFS.

Because of that, some of you guys here are way to picky about using your own setups to fit your needs/preference, it almost leaves no breathing room for people to even make a suggestion like this. LFS needs an alternative from full customization, so it won't single out people just wanting to drive and see how the cars feel. A horrible oversteery car is so true in reallife, it can be fun, or it could be terrible. So what!

How hard could it be to drive a stock LFS car and shoot for a fast time? And comparing it to reallife, this idea relates to how most sprint races are done (like on Best Motoring, and other car test shows). LFS needs a realistic default setup for each car ---good ones--- , because right now the stock sets need improvements and/or the physics do.

That said, I actually think this idea has a purpose to be honest... would show skills overpower setup knowledge to be fast. I'd give a shot at that specific rank anyday, and since hotlapping is not my thing, it surprises even myself that I approve of hotlapping .

Among other things, LFS needs new gameplay features such as this, or else LFS will just be the same ol' same ol'... that is just boring, like it is now.

Interesting idea. I wouldn't mind seeing a stock car or even a stock server where people all use the same setup (of course that would require honesty and integrity and let's face it, this is the internet ).

In demo days I did a number of races in the XRT with some fellow Aussies using what's known as the VT Commodore setup (named after a famously sloppy family four-door), which was spongy, understeered like mad so you needed to be sideways to have any corner speed at all, and had a full complement of passengers. Against guys who would normally smoke me, I was competitive in these races and they were awesome fun too..

Quote from Tweaker :

I like this idea actually. But to have a specific car that is non-editable, well... why not just have a Hotlap mode that takes every car in LFS, and LFSW could have a 'Factory' or 'Stock' hotlap rank, where all the cars would use the stock setup supplied. This would be pretty fun in my opinion, considering it brings in a WHOLE nother aspect of hotlapping, rather than being beat by someone who uses some stupid bogus setup to beat your best time...

Thank you for your feedback. The idea to have a seperate class of hotlaps in which only the "stock" setups are allowed is a much better. It would increase the range and fun of the whole thing. I guess I didn't allow myself enough time to iron out the details of the idea and think of that myself!

Quote from Tweaker :

I like this idea actually. But to have a specific car that is non-editable, well... why not just have a Hotlap mode that takes every car in LFS, and LFSW could have a 'Factory' or 'Stock' hotlap rank, where all the cars would use the stock setup supplied. This would be pretty fun in my opinion, considering it brings in a WHOLE nother aspect of hotlapping, rather than being beat by someone who uses some stupid bogus setup to beat your best time :zombie:. This would rely on skill, but it would be fun for everyone, because overall it just might determine your overall skill and rank for a fast time in the LFS racing community.

Of course, LFS would need perfected default/stock setups, but that isn't so hard. To me, setups only account for about 50% of how your driving preference is, the other half, or even more than half, is your skill level to actually drive fast. I could take any average setup that doesn't fit 'my style' :rolleyes: and after about 20 or more laps, it flows with me, and I can get fast times. Of course the setup has to be correctly made for it to be done, but there are loads of fast sets for one car/track combo, and they all feel different in some way. But that does not mean you cannot get a fast time in it just because it doesn't suit you. If you test drive real cars before buying, you aren't going to go and change steering, caster, suspension etc. right away, cars have limitations and you have to deal with it when making a decision before buying. Unlike LFS (where changing loads of settings on a seemingly stock car is possible), this kind of limitation of having a 'stock' car feel is lacking in LFS.

Because of that, some of you guys here are way to picky about using your own setups to fit your needs/preference, it almost leaves no breathing room for people to even make a suggestion like this. LFS needs an alternative from full customization, so it won't single out people just wanting to drive and see how the cars feel. A horrible oversteery car is so true in reallife, it can be fun, or it could be terrible. So what!

How hard could it be to drive a stock LFS car and shoot for a fast time? And comparing it to reallife, this idea relates to how most sprint races are done (like on Best Motoring, and other car test shows). LFS needs a realistic default setup for each car ---good ones--- , because right now the stock sets need improvements and/or the physics do.

That said, I actually think this idea has a purpose to be honest... would show skills overpower setup knowledge to be fast. I'd give a shot at that specific rank anyday, and since hotlapping is not my thing, it surprises even myself that I approve of hotlapping .

:iagree: 111.245%

Just think of it as driving a car fresh from the showroom floor.. how many new cars fresh from the showroom allow you to adjust half the things LFS does and by 0.001 too??

The only adjustable parts for this idea should be tyre pressures, tyre type (road_super, road_normal etc) and fuel load.

Apart from being driver-dependant, setups are also hardware-dependant. Your DFP set won't go well on my Momo, or his mouse. Throttle, steering, brakes, suspension, tyres ..... everything is relative to the individual racer's hardware (PC included). There can not be a universal set.

Quote from Gunn :

Apart from being driver-dependant, setups are also hardware-dependant. Your DFP set won't go well on my Momo, or his mouse. Throttle, steering, brakes, suspension, tyres ..... everything is relative to the individual racer's hardware (PC included). There can not be a universal set.

There's no setup option in the garage for throttle
I'll agree on steering and brakes, the only inputs adjustable in the garage, but suspension and tyres, no. If the suspension and tyres are "wrong" for you, you can't blame your controller being too sensitive, or not sensitive enough.

I think TaiFong's idea is very good. It's not about making it easier for anybody, it's just about having a different challenge. MAYBE we could even eventually have 2 similar cars in LFS that handle differently too.

Yes hardware/controllers could affect the proper use of a default setup, however thats not to say this all couldn't be possible. Most setups are not entirely dependant on the controller setup other than keyboard or mouse. Everything else stripped seperately from the setup, such as wheel turn, compensation, centering, etc. So there still is room to have the car feel somewhat different, but that is a given, since 900 degrees versus 270 is far different. Using one default setup with various controllers is very possible. And well, if the steering feels odd to you, you could always change your controller preferences in the game, doesn't take long. Possibly, having controller 'presets' which save the configuration would save some time. So switching from your normal race configuration to a default setup configuration would be easy.

This just needs some thought like every potential suggestion, not just "Nope, cannot work, forget about it".

Because afterall, you do have to change your controller settings to suit your needs versus changing your setup. That is how every car game is.

I think that this is a good idea to have a car like that that's completely stock and unchangeable... the ideal car that this could be like in my eyes is a BMW 3-series or 5-series style car. 4 doors, fairly good handling, good power, and rear wheel drive. That would be sweet.

Quote from sinbad :

There's no setup option in the garage for throttle

Nobody said there was.

good idea, kind of

I like the idea of there being a car that is fixed in setup. But this isnt realisitic in real life racing.

The closest i can think to where everyone races and is equal, and no setup changes are made, is basic karting.

When you goto a kart centre, all they do is change the fuel load depending on the race length.

I know these karts are pretty basic, but they are tremendous fun! Maybe a slightly more powerful kart could be introduced along with a specific kart track. There are very minimal setup changes that can be made on this level of kart, so it really would be a test of skill. And after all, dont most real racing drivers get recognised for their skill at this level?

I know this wouldnt really give high speed racing or anything, but tbh you dont need that on a nice small windy track. As has been proved, IMO, on some Autocross servers where you race your mates against the clock on a tiny little track. [dSRC] Northern Heights has been running a great little AX setup, with everyone enjoying lapping in the UF1 and learning new lines to get faster times.

Substitute UF1 for a good Kart and it would be tremendous! Eliminate major variation in setups and skill will become even more apparent. Even on the UF1 setups can make quite a difference.

Quote from mrbogeyman :

good idea, kind of

I like the idea of there being a car that is fixed in setup. But this isnt realisitic in real life racing.

Again, the only thing that this compares to is like driving a real "factory" car. The only sensible adjustments you could make on the car would be Tire Pressure, Fuel Amoutn, Seat Position, etc. This suggestions offers a great deal of realistic feel, I don't see how it is not. Take any old stock car and go take it for a drive. No funky hopups, no suspension changes, no crazy camber, all that. LFS leaves you to change a wide range of settings, which is good, since people love to customize these days, but there are so many settings, it is very hard to believe for how stock the car appears (the road cars). Having some stock car feel would be loads of fun.

And if you guys think controller issues get in the way, they shouldn't. Like I said, with every game you always have to change your controller settings to make the game (or car) feel right. There is no restriction to changing your controller settings with this suggestion, that should always be made possible.... of course, since video games need to be setup properly for your controller .

Quote from mrbogeyman :

The closest i can think to where everyone races and is equal, and no setup changes are made, is basic karting.

When you goto a kart centre, all they do is change the fuel load depending on the race length.

I know these karts are pretty basic, but they are tremendous fun! Maybe a slightly more powerful kart could be introduced along with a specific kart track. There are very minimal setup changes that can be made on this level of kart, so it really would be a test of skill. And after all, dont most real racing drivers get recognised for their skill at this level?

I know this wouldnt really give high speed racing or anything, but tbh you dont need that on a nice small windy track. As has been proved, IMO, on some Autocross servers where you race your mates against the clock on a tiny little track. [dSRC] Northern Heights has been running a great little AX setup, with everyone enjoying lapping in the UF1 and learning new lines to get faster times.

Substitute UF1 for a good Kart and it would be tremendous! Eliminate major variation in setups and skill will become even more apparent. Even on the UF1 setups can make quite a difference.

This isn't for racing Bogey, this is for hotlapping. But I understand what you mean. If this suggestion ever did make it into the racing online portion, then I suppose a fixed/stock car setup feel would make the game divide the cars up into classes. In other words, there would be servers with the ability to choose between a Stock GTi Class, or Racing GTi Class. This is what I'd like to see in LFS to be honest... it leaves room for loads more options/features to keep us busy offline and/or online. Otherwise, LFS will just be the same car class everytime with setup disadvantages and advantages. More variety of features makes the game go really in depth, and would even give Leagues and Private races a lot more choices.

If we just get full support for this specific feature, then maybe it could make it. Because I see this suggestion turn up more and more now, it is becoming wanted I think. It is just the few people who lack the need for it that ruin it They'd probably love the option in the game, and they know it

Quote from Tweaker :

It is just the few people who lack the need for it that ruin it They'd probably love the option in the game, and they know it.

What ruins it is that nobody has a solution to make it actually work as you want it to. A legitimate issue has been raised, sweeping it under the carpet won't make your dreams come true, in fact you can't proceed as you wish until this is solved. If you can solve this then you have a working project. If you can't then it just remains a nifty concept.

But what is there to solve? Other than discussing the details of how it would work, there is not much else to a suggestion. And not much else is discussed about one, they can be brief but straight to the point. But as for a suggestion like this maybe, going in-depth to how it would work might be necessary, but nobody wants to spend the time to do that from the start if people disagree with just the brief idea. Which is why Scawen usually has to do the thinking to putting a praised suggestion in the game .

This suggestion has had enough minds put to it already, and actually has changed from something completely different to that of the original concept. So it is evolving. This would probably be one suggestion I am actually interested in supporting and planning out, but if people don't really like it I won't bother (like my other whacky suggestions of tuneups /w credits )

It's not a matter of liking it or not. If you can't make it fair then you have defeated all purposes for the concept.

Ermmm well, I still think the concept is as fair as you can make it, as with any comparable suggestion. You really cannot restrict the controller options in any game, so there isn't much you can do there. But lets say everyone was using wheels, all varieties and makes. There really wouldn't be a disadvantage between certain wheels other than how precise the controller is or its own abilties over another. If your wheel turns 270 degrees or 900 degrees, surely the steering response will differ, but that is your hardware at fault, not the suggestion. So, this also means that how we have the game now, this advantage/disadvantage is present, so it really makes no difference at all, the game will still be the same, you just cannot change the car's setup.

If the FZ50 were given to us stock and it required quick responsive handling to control the oversteer, the 270 degree wheels would rule outright in correcting slides... and the 900 degree wheels would be pretty tricky (thankfully DFP users can switch it to their preference). If the FZ50 has very hard brakes by default and the users with pedals that have a small range of motion would have trouble locking the brakes. The people with expensive pedals that have a large range of motion would probably be safer and very rarely lock the wheels at all. Again this is hardware dependant. And how it could be alleviated is ALL in the controller setup. If the game were given more controller options to better suit these issues, then it really wouldn't be unfair for everyone (other than mouse and keyboard users).

Speaking of mouse and keyboard users, they could still use their aids, but as always, they probably wouldn't be as fast as wheel users. Ever since the infamous patch that took keyboarders out of existence (well not really), wheel and mouse drivers are the only dependable source of control.

So in conclusion, to there still is unfairness to it all, however it wouldn't be the suggestion causing all of it. Some people say that setups for mouse driver's are hugely different to that of a wheel driver's, but they are hardly different at all. The only necessary adjustments they need to make are steering response and brake strength... all of which could be done by controller configuration in the game instead. If the game just left us with more controller options, people wouldn't have a problem with using a default setup in any given car. There would still be the customization of the hardware, but not the car completely. Everyone would be using merely the same car, with same attributes such as suspension, gearing, brake balance, diff settings, etc. The difference lies in the hardware and how your controller is setup to your preference... nothing you can do about that, and that is the way the game is now even. Setting up your controller to make the car feel right (and to drive fast) is far easier than setting up a car. AND it is the first step in even playing a driving game, so once that is finished, you would be read-to-go for driving in LFS. If you don't have the controller setup properly you would be slower, and many people have this issue currently, some don't even know it. How sensitive you want the wheel to feel, how strong you want it to jerk your hands, all up to you. How the car drives... all up to you.

But all of the controller differences barely leaves large margins in advantages/disadvantages. If the game had a few more controller options to make this suggestion feel comfortable to everyone, then there wouldn't be a problem with fairness. It is just that I think having a 'default car' can prove that there would be very competitive racing, just the driver and his/her inputs from the controller is where it would count (that is where skill comes in, as with any form of racing).

I don't want to repeat this (I think I said a few things over and over), but I hope you understand what I am saying here . Basically the game is not fair to begin with when it comes to controllers, so that part is something you can barely adjust too when it comes to a suggestion of good racing. It is hard to argue saying that "the controller's would make it unfair, therefore it cannot be done", the game is already in this state, except the fact that we use personal setups, making things harder or easier for everyone. You'd be better off knowing one setup, learning it, and sticking to it, than to keep trying new sets.

I probably think too hard about suggestions, but I just hope for the best when Scawen reads these :trophy_br

Quote from Tweaker :

There really wouldn't be a disadvantage between certain wheels other than how precise the controller is or its own abilties over another.

And there you have it. An unfair system that completely negates the goal you are trying to achieve in the first place.

Quote from Tweaker :

Speaking of mouse and keyboard users, they could still use their aids, but as always, they probably wouldn't be as fast as wheel users. Ever since the infamous patch that took keyboarders out of existence (well not really), wheel and mouse drivers are the only dependable source of control.

Well some of us keyboarders are still here, and we're still having great fun! I like the suggestion too, and I don't think keyboard players would be more penalized than they are now. It's mainly about the controller settings, for the rest it's just getting used to.

When I'm racing with a good setup I try to take it to its maximum potential, without waiting for a better or more suited setup to arrive. When I find a better setup I'm happy with the faster times but if I don't ever find one I won't miss it. It's all about getting the car you have in your hands to its maximum speed, may it be understeery or oversteery.

However one other thing that would be nice to change is braking power: it doesn't make one faster, but for keyboard or mouse the braking power of wheel setups is too high resulting in locked wheels. Remember we can only brake or not brake.

Anyway, like tweak said new features are always nice in a game, maybe some people don't like them and it's normal, it doesn't take away the fun they're having already. I don't hotlap now but I don't bother other people doing it.

I think the most important thing for this to work easily with no unhappy people is a good but not extreme setup for each car.

Oh dear. I can't make things clear.

That does not negate the goal we have with this suggestion at all, since it is already like that in the game, so how does that totally exclude this suggestion from even being a reality?

There already are disadvantages within the game and that is with what controllers we use. But eliminating the source of another disadvantage (having one setup faster than another), wouldn't it at least even things out a bit more? As I described the differences from controller to car with one player vs. another, there wouldn't be huge advantages IF you could just change the controller setup to drive the car properly... that's it.

If my wheel had 2 buttons on it for shifting, and your wheel had no buttons on it, might I be faster? Maybe, but that doesn't mean this fair default car suggestion would be unfair because you cannot shift like others do.

It is your own hardware at fault, which again I have to say, is an issue we have right now that CANNOT BE FIXED. It is one of those unreachable situations that lies in all video games. So this would make controllers almost completely irrelevant from the suggestion, since there would be no possible ways to match each other exactly in racing other than giving everyone the same controller setup options and the same exact car on the track.

Quote from Paranoid Android :

It's mainly about the controller settings, for the rest it's just getting used to.

You tooks the words right from my mouth and made them super-short! :up:

Quote from Paranoid Android :

However one other thing that would be nice to change is braking power: it doesn't make one faster, but for keyboard or mouse the braking power of wheel setups is too high resulting in locked wheels. Remember we can only brake or not brake.

Yeah well that is where controller options could come in. For keyboarders, they could have more advanced features for helping you brake or accelerate. Because I know that many keyboarders and mouse drivers complain there is NOT much you can do to customize the driving style, and drive well enough to your liking. You guys usually have to deal with what is in the game now, and I know there is not enough. When using the mouse, I know the braking is especially hard... there needs to be more features in that area to make it easier. The same applies for accelerating... and as a whole, for keyboard users too. If there were just more of the aids added for the trickier control types, it would make things pleasing for everybody.

Who said the idea was bad? Tweak has just written his posts that way to make it seem like people are dissing the idea when actually they are trying to discuss a techical glitch in the plan. There's a difference between talking and doing. The difference between a fairy tale and reality.

Quote from Tweaker :

It is your own hardware at fault, which again I have to say, is an issue we have right now that CANNOT BE FIXED. It is one of those unreachable situations that lies in all video games.

Simply bullshit. Since we have the ability to alter a vast range of setup options we can currently compensate for differences in hardware. By removing that ability you are actually making things worse and more restrictive, more exclusive. The penny still hasn't dropped about throttle hardware either has it? If you think people just change their rotation and away they go you don't understand the differences at all. Brakes, diff settings, tyre pressures, roll bars, gear ratios: oh wait! I change all of those things to make my car behave in a drivable fashion to suit my wheel and pedals. Some people use a clutch, how will you make it fair for them?

Bah, it's like talking to a brick wall.