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#26 - JTbo
Quote from tristancliffe :Lol

Well, the normal dump valve gets rid of all the excess manifold pressure. But there is still pressure there (up to whatever the valve is rated at) slowing the turbine. With the recirculating valve, the manifold pressure is not allowed to go above the same value, but the excess air isn't 'lost'. When you get back on the throttle, the boost can be built up much more quickly from this reserve. The normal dump valve means the turbine has to do all the work of building boost itself. If that makes sense.

Of course, if anyone can prove me wrong (not by saying 'dump valves rock innit' please) then feel free, cos I like to be corrected on things if I am wrong

Only thing that I spotted is that these valves don't lose manifold pressure, only pressure between throttle body and turbo's compressor side.

Manifold pressure keeps valve closed, when you lift throttle valve is opening. Of course it is not quite this simple as there is also this pressure thing that affects when it is opened, so it won't open wrong time.
#27 - JTbo
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :With the recirc system ... Honestly I'm not dense (at least I don't think so ) the volume of compressed air must go somewhere, and putting it into some other piping is not going to release as much intake manifold pressure as rapidly (the key to maintaining impeller RPM right? wrong?) as venting to the atpmosphere should. Therefore the turbocharger should have LESS work to do with an atmospheric valve installed.... And also I may be wrong and I too enjoy some construcive reproof and edification. And I am obsessed with cars / physics and turbochargers so I really should know all this already

note: no time to check for typos please excuse any

Manifold pressure is controlled with throttle plate, not with valve

Compressed air will got between air filter and turbo's intake.
Sorry that's obviously true.... I'll be more cognizant of my terminology henceforth lol
Yes, it's probably true that the atmospheric dump valve keeps the turbine rpms a bit higher...

As for having too much pressure when the recirc valve repressurises the system, I don't think that could happen. The efficiency of the recirc valves is low enough so that the pressure after recirc is less than it was before. But it's higher than if the pressure was just dumper to atmosphere.

So,
Atmospheric Dump Valve = higher turbine speeds maintained, but lower initial pressure
Recirculating Dump Valve = slightly lower turbine speeds, but higher initial pressure.

As far as I know, the recirc system means than when you get back on the throttle you have less lag and more power at that moment. Maybe, with modern smaller turbos and better flow in the systems the difference is minimal, but I reckon the lack of noise is worth at least a factor of two in the preference department. And I knew it wasn't the manifold pressure as such, but brain didn't engage fully :S

I love techie discussions like this - makes me go all gooey inside...
#30 - JTbo
Quote from tristancliffe :
As for having too much pressure when the recirc valve repressurises the system, I don't think that could happen. The efficiency of the recirc valves is low enough so that the pressure after recirc is less than it was before. But it's higher than if the pressure was just dumper to atmosphere.

Could be so, it was just what big boys has told me sometime and if not believing big boys, then who?

One nice thing to state is also that more Pressure does not make more power, usually jaws drop and eyes go wide, then ppl start to attack over you, how can you say such thing. Well thing is, more air = more power, so it is possible to get more power with less boost if you have bigger compression side of turbo, also less pressure is sooner available, this is often overlooked and only pressure is noted.
Quote :
So,
Atmospheric Dump Valve = higher turbine speeds maintained, but lower initial pressure
Recirculating Dump Valve = slightly lower turbine speeds, but higher initial pressure.

Exactly what I was getting at - and as you alluded to further on in this post it probably depends on the equipment used and the total system as to whether or not there is a more effective method either way because the advantages of each offset the disadvantages of the other. Although I suspect that there is more stress on the impeller blades with a recirculating system... and more odd turbulence / wave energy interactions.... making the system inherantly unstable and subpar and likely to explode making a REALLY LOUD pshhh noise to make up for the lack of smaller ones... Ok OK fine that last bit is garbage....

Quote :And I knew it wasn't the manifold pressure as such, but brain didn't engage fully :S

Indeed .... I had tunnel vision about this valve discussion.

Quote :I love techie discussions like this - makes me go all gooey inside...

I must start posting more and lurking less I think I'll get a long with you guys well.... That Todd fellow makes my brain disintegrate though
Quote from JTbo :Could be so, it was just what big boys has told me sometime and if not believing big boys, then who?

One nice thing to state is also that more Pressure does not make more power, usually jaws drop and eyes go wide, then ppl start to attack over you, how can you say such thing. Well thing is, more air = more power, so it is possible to get more power with less boost if you have bigger compression side of turbo, also less pressure is sooner available, this is often overlooked and only pressure is noted.

Eh? more air = more pressure = more power. Bigger compressor (big generalization without taking MANY things into account) delivers more air therefore greater pressure..... The more air you "compress" into a given volume, the greater the pressure in the volume. More air in given space = greater pressure.
#33 - JTbo
Litres it is, you sure have more litres when you compress air, but you can get same amout of litres when compressing less, no need to go insane boost levels.

More air is not necessarily more pressure. However calculating this would be too difficult to me, but it is possible to calculate different cases where there is more efficent to use less boost and bigger compressor side.

Yes, there is all A/R things and such, but that will be perhaps too much to wonder in that area.

Compressed air warms up and this had something to do with this matter, can't remember all of this anymore as it is over a year when I did read story behind this all.

Anyway with 0.8bar boost two different turbos other gave more power than other, only difference was that other one had bigger compressor side/wings/chamber, eh I don't know exact term in english language, exhaust side was same, engine was same.
Just get a supercharger, then the boost is proportional to the RPM.
#35 - JTbo
Quote from wheel4hummer :Just get a supercharger, then the boost is proportional to the RPM.

Would be nice to have one in LFS, problem with suprerchargers is that they have habit of loosing efficency at higher rpm, would be bit different thing to drive
@JTbo

I'm not totally sure what you're saying......

In the example you're saying the two turbos yield the same amount of boost. And the engine with the larger compressor turbo, with the same amount of pressure, generated more power.

I would THINK that the amount of work required to create X amount of pressure (which is a function of the ambient pressure) would always be equal, so what you're saying must have something to do with the efficiency (specifically thermally) of the compressor, because (in essence of course) ENGINE X can make Y amount of power under Z intake pressure so long as the temperatures are the same, which you talked about.... SO we need to figure out why a bigger compressor creates a less heated charge. I was under the impression that the heat was due soley to compression however perhaps a smaller turbo requires more RPM to create a certain a mount of pressure and more friction is created therefore more heat.... Although a larger diameter impeller has more surface area..... SOMEONE HELP
Quote from wheel4hummer :Just get a supercharger, then the boost is proportional to the RPM.

I was thinking about this the other day....

It's very mountainous where I live, and even my city is very high above sea level.... Thus I can notice a sizeable difference when I go to the coast; I have more power by a wide margin that I can actually feel.

With a turbocharger, I would theoritically always have the same amount of power, since they are pressure regulated - even if it takes me a tiny bit longer to get full boost on a high mountain pass because the air is less dense. However with a supercharger boost must be proportional to the ambient pressure since it's driven directly from the engine... Correct?
#38 - JTbo
This is quote from one MR2 forum, where guys where thinking same thing very long time ago:
Quote : Think of it this way.
If Pam Anderson and and Arnold Schwarzenegger were both going to pick up a 50 lb weight ... who is most likely to struggle to pick it up and who could carry it further?

Also:
Quote : bigger turbo = more cfm = more air = more volume
so 15psi on a small turbo and a large turbo will put out different volumes of air which explains the power difference.

Most likely difference will come from air temp and therefore less oxygen in one unit of air, also part of thing could be that bigger turbo can carry to redline where smaller one looses more efficency at higher speed.

If I just would be able to find that article, I could link it, then it would be clear
#39 - JTbo
I did found another article, this information is against what I did read long time ago.
Quote :You can see from the formula above, at the same manifold pressure, the motor produce the same power regardless which turbos are used. That explains the misconception that at same boost, engine with bigger turbos pump out more power.

From URL:
http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/id7.html

Now I don't know what to believe anymore
#40 - JTbo
Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :I was thinking about this the other day....

It's very mountainous where I live, and even my city is very high above sea level.... Thus I can notice a sizeable difference when I go to the coast; I have more power by a wide margin that I can actually feel.

With a turbocharger, I would theoritically always have the same amount of power, since they are pressure regulated - even if it takes me a tiny bit longer to get full boost on a high mountain pass because the air is less dense. However with a supercharger boost must be proportional to the ambient pressure since it's driven directly from the engine... Correct?

You are very much right there.

I live around 100m from sealevel and I did test friends Subaru Turbo, it was suprising how much throttle it needs to go boost, even at 5000rpm it was not boosting in light acceleration, so I don't know if it helps in normal driving, 50% or more throttle would be needed with his car.

Other cars would be of course different.

I remember when some rally was placed very high on mountains and some rally drivers complained how those turbos go on like nothing and NA guys had less power, that was time when there was turbo and non turbo cars still racing together in same serie, good old times
The second one has to be right.

You may have something about them losing pressure at high engine RPM, but as the second article states - air pressure is directly related to air volume which is what I was poorly trying to explain above. The first article.... good greif:
Quote :
bigger turbo = more cfm = more air = more volume
so 15psi on a small turbo and a large turbo will put out different volumes of air which explains the power difference.

that makes no sense whatsoever, it's not really a coherant statement I'm afraid.

EDIT brainwave (if I call it that - more of a relapse to think incorrectly...)
This may sound redundant - but I think that that guy was trying to say that air exits a turbo's compressor at a certain pressure (loud buzzer please) and therefore "more volume of 15psi" makes more power... I'm afraid not, pressure rises in the entire system as a gradual result of the hard work of our trusty impeller...
A bigger turbo providing more boost (and hence more pressure) will allow the engine to generate more power, if the engine is capable of doing so. But, lag will be much much greater.

Often, it is better to use a smaller turbo, or even two smaller turbo's (either in series or parallel) with a different engine format. Most cars nowadays use relatively small turbo's for this reason.

Superchargers work in much the same way as turbos from a pressure point of view. The system is still pressure regulated (i.e. there should still be a pressure relief valve), although boost is proportional to engine RPM up to that limit. At higher revs they are indeed less efficient, and they also require more power to run - a turbo is driven by waste gas, a supercharger is driven by flywheel power....

With regards to the air heating with compression, it's a very real effect. The amount air heats up has to be seen to be appreciated. I've done some calculations in the past on a Starlet Turbo engine, and the turbo at peak boost will heat the air from ambient to about 150-200 degrees! The effect this has isn't so much on the density of air (although it is affected), but rather on the thermodynamic cycle. I'll dig out some graphs at some point over the weekend to explain what I mean, but basically it's beneficial to cool the compressed air. Hence an intercooler. But intercoolers massively increase the intake tracts, and have a massive effect on lag, so fitting a bigger intercooler for a given turbo size/engine performance will not necessarily increase power outputs.

It's a huge science, and thats why car manufacturers spend millions of pounds finding the right turbo (and ancilleries) for a given purpose. Someone who thinks they can bolt on, say, an HKS intercooler and expect it to work off the shelf is almost certainly deluded. Bigger isn't always better.
mhm.. a reasonable guy u are.. =P
Quote from tristancliffe :They sound silly however you play them. Might as well replace the pssshhhhhttt with riiiiicccceeeeerrrrrrrrfooooooooolllllll everytime they lift the throttle one iota.


how can u adress people who like turbocharged cars ricers? ricers are jap cars, "riskokere" as we call'em in norway... faaaar from all of these have turbos, so how can you come with such a statement? i like a good bov-sound, cause it means POWER! can't have big hp, for ex. 1000 hp, without some sort of bov! hehe!

i know, silly comment.. but don't use that RICER expression about a damn bov-sound... that's silly!
You haven't read most of this thread have you. Do you think the Veyron goes pppsssshhhhhh when you move your right foot? No, I bet it doesn't. Does a standard Lancia Integrale go psssshhhhhhhhhhht when you twitch the loud pedal? No, it doesn't.

The thing is that the ONLY cars that gooo pssssssssssshhhhhhht are ricer cars. They might make that noise as standard, but thats because the manufacturers are trying to make them appeal to ricers. A powerful, standard road car doesn't burst your eardrums with some stupid noise every time your pulse moves the skin on your heel.

A loud ppsssssshhhhhhhhhttt DOES mean power, as you say. But it means 'listen to all this energy that I've just got rid of, so that my car goes a bit slower, cos I am a ricer and can't drive'. All the power is being wasted. Whats cool about that?
well, a lot of energy is dumped, i know that.. but by dumping the pressure, the turbo is still spinning when u continue after a gearchange or whatever.. if the pressure hadn't been dumped, the turbo would stop the second you let of the throttle! understand what i mean?
Seriously, read this thread.

When you dump the energy, indeed the turbo is spinning under it's inertia. But when you open the throttle again, it has to start from scratch building the pressure, which slows the turbo anyway. Plus it takes time.

If you don't waste the energy (with a recirculating dump valve, as most manufacturers fit) then the turbo slows down a little bit more, but the boost pressure is regained much quicker (which also helps to speed up the turbo).

Really Keltern, if you ARE going to join a discussion a week late (nearly), then a) read it and b) avoid making silly comments that just show you haven't read/understood the previous posts.
illepall yeye.. stop flaming!

well, i know that ALOT of the norwegian racers, and professionals involved in the bigger events, very rarely recurculates the pressure, they dump it.. and it works extremely well! you should check out this one: http://www.vsmotor.no/filmer.html

it's a bmw e39 m5, 3.8 straight six, with over 1100hp, and well over 1100 nm. awesome ride! and NOT a ricer..

download a couple of the vids, and see if you could make this car go better!
Again - READ THE THREAD!!!!

For motorsport it's different. You are going from 100% throttle to 0 throttle. Engine Revs are much higher, and drivability is less of a concern (i.e. it doesn't matter how smoothly the turbo kicks in). In those situations atmospheric dump valves are used to keep the turbo from stalling, knowing that in 4 secs time you'll be at full throttle again.

A road car spends only a tiny amount of time at WOT. Therefore, what little boost you have needs to be kept, and everything must happen smoothly, as the majority are car drivers don't have sufficient skills to manage.

If you'd read the thread you'd have read this already. I'm not needlessly flaming, I've told you twice before to read it, and you still keep trying to post things you think we've overlooked.

I will however download the videos. Not to see how fast they go (anyone can go fast with power - it's not a skill), but to see if the BMW's have indicators. Why don't drivers of German cars use them? Ever!
yeah, ok.. i'll admit that i didn't read the entire thread... but LFS is racing, not common road driving! =) so why talk about smooth driving for the common people! =)

and hey, one skill you didn't mention, was controlling power! hehe! that's what you'll see on the vids.. =) he's playing around on these ones, but i think he's a driver in gatebil extreme as well, so he knows how NOT to make the wheels spin also...
Yes, but this thread was kick started by someone saying a dump valve is the best sound a car can make. He was almost certainly referring to road car noises, so thats what this topic focussed on.

And that driver looked rubbish. Terrible lines, could barely control the oversteer when he spun the wheels. And what a pointless car - having 1000hp is stupid if you can't put in on the road. I bet that car would do quicker lap times with less than 500hp, would use less fuel (so would do better in endurance racing), and would eat less tyres. Maybe I've missed the point of stupidly powerful cars like that, but to me, a purist, it's just silly.

Blow off / bypass sound like this
(151 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG