I actually agree with that.

Well, ill say this then. LFS weight feeling is perfect, but GT is just as worse in a different way.

What the hell is this doing in LFS General Discussion? Apples and oranges, LFS and GT5 are obviously not related.

seinfeld, I hear you're leaving again. Bye. I've spent the last, oh I dunno, 2 years? feels like a lifetime.. reading while you make absolutely no contribution to the LFS forum except pure trolling and constant forked-tongue crap. I feel like we need closure, and having read your first post I'm gathering you have that. So, mind if I tidy up the place and close your forum account? I'd personally really like to do that. I mean REALLY like to. Unless of course you weren't really saying goodbye again.. I mean you're saying it, but you're not meaning it. Like as in sub-text. Again. As usual.

dunno if its been mentioned,
but after 5 series, gt still uses the same tire squels and start sound etc. nice graphics, but just got my xbox, sure not gonna buy a ps3 for 1 game i'll stick with lfs

Gran Turismo creator Kazunori Yamauchi has revealed that a "major update" is coming for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue later this year, which will add among other things long-awaited vehicle damage.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=186046

I wouldn't hold my breath. Might be one of those GT-promises again, like "GT4 will have online".

Only thing why I care about this that this is good subject to discuss with GT fan(boy)s, after it will have the casual "crash a wall 200 km/h and bumper falls off" damage, then it's not a subject anymore. Well, maybe then "GT is not a sim" subject could move to more important areas like the tyre physics... most people still think damage is the only reason why it isn't a "true" sim.

I've just read the first post, and all I can say is: BASTARD!

Quote from deggis :

Only thing why I care about this that this is good subject to discuss with GT fan(boy)s, after it will have the casual "crash a wall 200 km/h and bumper falls off" damage, then it's not a subject anymore. Well, maybe then "GT is not a sim" subject could move to more important areas like the tyre physics... most people still think damage is the only reason why it isn't a "true" sim.

Agreed, for the most part damage is poorly represented in all games - though some better than others.

I'm not too bothered about the visual damage, as I drive cockpit only and would never really see it, bu tas you say to hit the wall at rediculous speed and even more rediculously - drive away from the scene is just plain stupid.

No matter what the car looks like, the effects of damage should be apparent from very low speeds, the car should be totalled above say 40 MPH and less than that for open wheelers.

Quote from spyshagg :

I can't really say that this is an arcade game. It is not, really. I can see same basic principles of a simulator in there, just not refined, or whatever.

Did anyone notice that gear changes and hand animations are exactly matched? Either he used auto transmission, or

You need exaggerated tire sounds to compensate for the lack of inertial feedback. IRL life you can feel the car and G forces. So you need another way of giving the driver feedback.

Quote from Ahriman4891 :

Did anyone notice that gear changes and hand animations are exactly matched? Either he used auto transmission, or

Its manual since you can see the gear indicator going to "N" at times (probably has a g25). What GT5 does for upshifts is that in a couple hundred RPM before the redline, the hand moves to the shifter and when you shift it shifts (although you can't really see it moving the shifter). Also, if you look to the left of the gear indicator, it flashes a recommended gear number for the next corner and at that time, the hand moves to the shifter, ready for a downshift if you get off the throttle or brake. It looks crummy if you shortshift up or down because then it looks late. Actually it looks a bit crummy when the hand moves for a shift you don't want to do .

The stupid thing with the shifting is... The hand doesn't move to the shifter according to certain rpm's. It's triggered by speed. This means...

Let's say i would shift immediately into 6th gear when starting to drive. So i wouldn't have to shift anymore to reach top speed. Now guess what... on the way up to top speed (end of 6th gear) the driver will still move its hand five times to the shifter! Bravo!

The reason I noticed that is because a week or so ago, someone on another forum complained about delayed shift animation. There was a patch since then, they must have added the speed-based prediction and now play the animation in advance.

P.S.
I actually got so used to LFS's way of handling this that it does indeed look annoying. Things like that should be enabled in the options.

There's another thing they messed up with the update...

I've heard with the update came the new cars, track and that quick tune setup thing. Strange thing was... i already had the new cars, track and the quick tune... without doing the update.

Now the quick tune was really a good thing to use. I used to testdrive the cars in arcade mode (time attack) and mess around with the settings in quick tune. However, after the update it told me that it's not available in the arcade mode, meaning they took it out. It's only available in career mode now.

I mean... those are the things i don't understand actually. Why on earth would they have to take the feature out of the arcade mode? You weren't forced to use it... it was just an option that wouldn't have hurt anybody...

The quick tune is really good tho. Setup changes never made such a big difference to handling in other GT titles.

Quote from jibber :

The quick tune is really good tho. Setup changes never made such a big difference to handling in other GT titles.

That's probably also because every base setup is horrible to drive. My brother is an excellent driver (even rocks at LFS after 2 laps) and was using the base-setup for the Lotus 111R /Tuned online and managed to win some races, but spun out due to random mistakes often.

So I drove around in that ass-first, face-second car on Suzuka for 1 lap, changed the suspension settings and camber a bit and presto: a car that doesn't drive like a shopping trolley on ice.

Now I'm not even good at doing set-ups (especially in LFS) and I manage to mess everything up that I can get my incompetent hands on. However the set I made for my brother in 2 minutes took almost 10 seconds off his best time I'd say something is messed up with the base-setup.

Some of the cars handle quite ok with the standard setup. Mostly the ones which have pretty stiff suspension anyway. But many of the cars have a very soft suspension and therefor tend to "dive" into corners/weight transfers. This results in weak handling, which you can correct very good with adjusting some settings. Basically reducing ride height, making the suspension more stiff and add some negative camber and positive rear toe helps a lot as i've noticed.

I played for 5 hours yesterday, time trial (I dont care for offline racing. I just want to evaluate the physics).

Mostly BMW M3 and F40 at susuka.

I had to use all the tricks and "know how" I had, and about 2 hours just to get 2nd spot on the world rankings for this combo. 35ms from world record.
I tell you. There are hardcore PC sim players playing this game.
This game isn't toy game. For sure Its very scalable, from the very arcade options to the very professional simulation aspect.

So driving wise, Its a sim. I have no doubt.
Racing wise, If all players drive as they should by ignoring the allowed bumper car, It can be acceptable, but shitty compared to lfs online racing aspect.
The hotlap online intergration is great! You finish a lap and a box popups telling you your place and stuff... And you can download right away the ghost image for all the top ten places on each combo. Its wonderfull

Lots of stuff missing though. fuel tyre temp etc.....
The option to choose the wheel degrees is also missing... I have trouble setting hotlap pace with 900º

Quote from spyshagg :

I played for 5 hours yesterday, time trial (I dont care for offline racing. I just want to evaluate the physics).

Mostly BMW M3 and F40 at susuka.

I had to use all the tricks and "know how" I had, and about 2 hours just to get 2nd spot on the world rankings for this combo. 35ms from world record.
I tell you. There are hardcore PC sim players playing this game.
This game isn't toy game. For sure Its very scalable, from the very arcade options to the very professional simulation aspect.

So driving wise, Its a sim. I have no doubt.
Racing wise, If all players drive as they should by ignoring the allowed bumper car, It can be acceptable, but shitty compared to lfs online racing aspect.
The hotlap online intergration is great! You finish a lap and a box popups telling you your place and stuff... And you can download right away the ghost image for all the top ten places on each combo. Its wonderfull

Lots of stuff missing though. fuel tyre temp etc.....
The option to choose the wheel degrees is also missing... I have trouble setting hotlap pace with 900º

May I ask if you are racing with the G25? My brother and I have noticed that shifts are a lot faster with a manual clutch from watching the top replays. I just wonder if you were able to get 2nd without the faster shifts

I've been busy with the Elise 111R/Tuned. It's a blast do drive around Suzuka.. with the right setup it's fast and challenging, constantly driving on the limit of grip. This isn't arcade I can tell for sure. But I must say though, some cars feel more "real" compared to others. So far both the Elises and the Z06 really feel very realistic.. cars like the Evolution IX and the Integra Type R feel very weird, lots of understeering/sliding around.

Great news! :
It`s confirmed, GT Prologue will have damage modelling!
Read it at www.gamer.no (norwegian but confirmed source). The only bad thing is that number of cars on track will go down..

I don't see how manual shifting (with manual clutch) would be faster. Is that really the case?

I use the H-Shifter with manual clutch. But sometimes when it's late in the evening and i want to do some career races to make money for buying cars, then i race with the joypad (apartment in a very old house, so people can hear everything you do). I found that shifting with buttons and without the clutch is still the fastest way. And i'm not really slow at manual shifting i'd say.

Quote from The Very End :

The only bad thing is that number of cars on track will go down..

Won't bother me much, since i most likely won't go online with GT anyway...

Quote from jibber :

I don't see how manual shifting (with manual clutch) would be faster. Is that really the case?

I use the H-Shifter with manual clutch. But sometimes when it's late in the evening and i want to do some career races to make money for buying cars, then i race with the joypad (apartment in a very old house, so people can hear everything you do). I found that shifting with buttons and without the clutch is still the fastest way. And i'm not really slow at manual shifting i'd say.



Won't bother me much, since i most likely won't go online with GT anyway...

Well, we sorta noticed with the Elise 111R on Suzuka... the guy in #1 has no shifting delay when he shifts up. The automatic clutch however cuts the throttle for nearly half a second on up-shifts in that car (noticable by looking at the red bar filling the throttle bar)

Ok so I took my G25 up to my uncles, set his nice big HDTV up with the PS3, got a nice table to set the G25 up on, all nice.

Load up prologue, jump into a Golf.....Physics on Professional, no traction control or ASM, anything that would give me driving aids I turned off. Load onto the High Speed Ring track....now this is probably me being all picky, but the graphics arent as good as the videos made them out to be, the tracks could easily in some cases be mistaken for the PS2's GT4 version, I mean compare high speed ring and you'll see what I mean. The cars do look really nice granted but they feel so out of place on such underwhelming visual tracks. I even noticed in this era of consoles and graphics that GT5:P didnt have anti-aliasing, so visable jagged edges

It actually took me a while to realise you had to push the top button on the G25's gear controls to get the clutch working at the start of every race :S

Now to add to that dissapointment, the AI feels as dumb as the last GT, and while I really enjoyed my GT I was expecting some progress, ecspecially with all the power of the Cell chip.

So lets head online, one thing I must say from getting from the menu to a full 12 man (only 12 ) is very easy, simply press start, it will join you to a race thats about to start. So I was impressed with that part.....until, now without going on too much I'll point whats wrong with this, remembering that online gaming is the future, the XBOX360 would be crap without XBOX Live etc...

- First off, people go invisible when is detects they are driving in an 'unusual manor', this generally means when they managed to spin the car or crashed into a barrier etc. Numerous times has thier car ended up inside mine, and when it returns them to be 'real' again, the car feels like its crashed and spins out...
- Rolling starts....this is what I hate about GT, rolling starts, I dont mind it on single player, but why on online....
- No real filtering. As I said before, you press start and in literally 30 seconds your in a race. This brings the bad point of there ALWAYS being idiots on the track, I get taken out left right and centre, its like racing on a pinball table...
- This one made me laugh, a few people when I was on last night managed to win the race by foot down all the time and hitting the side barriers side on, this didnt lose them much speed and generally caused thier car to be faster by not braking...
- Drafting....we all know this is a real physic, but GTs drafting seems way too strong. And I draft a lot, its so easy to catch up to someone without trying from 100 metres away. However for some reason when you get within like a metre of the car your drafting ready to take over them, it propels them forward...wtf is that about.

I have to say at this point GT5 is a big dissapointment, I never minded the physics being pretty bad, but the online experience is fustrating, crap and unexciting.

Quote from spacedskunk :

However for some reason when you get within like a metre of the car your drafting ready to take over them, it propels them forward...wtf is that about.

That actually works irl and is missing from LFS - it's something that would make Bump-Drafting much better.

Seems like it's overdone in GT5, though

Quote from Jertje :

May I ask if you are racing with the G25? My brother and I have noticed that shifts are a lot faster with a manual clutch from watching the top replays. I just wonder if you were able to get 2nd without the faster shifts

hi

no, I used automatic clutch. Yes I am driving with the G25
I can take probably 1sec from that lap, the last corner before the bridge and before the chicane were slow.

cheers

Quote from spacedskunk :

Now to add to that dissapointment, the AI feels as dumb as the last GT, and while I really enjoyed my GT I was expecting some progress, ecspecially with all the power of the Cell chip.

Actually they did improve the AI. They are still terrible, sure. But i've actually been in situations where the AI did avoid crashing into me (like going into a corner side by side, where in previous GT titles, the AI would simply stay to their racing line and crash into you). Aswell when they make a mistake and happen to get off the track, they look out for you and wait with getting back on track until you are out of their way. But yeah, overall they are still pretty dumb.

About the bad physics... did you go into the options aswell and set the wheel options to simulation too? Not only the driving options you see everytime you join a race? Because honestly, even if the physics are not as great as LFS, and not quite as good as Forza 2, they sure are not what i would call "bad". The problem in GT5P however is, as soon as settings are in some kind of arcade mode, physics are a complete joke. And it's not too hard to miss a setting if you don't look through all the options etc.

Quote from Jakg :

That actually works irl and is missing from LFS - it's something that would make Bump-Drafting much better.

Seems like it's overdone in GT5, though

Apart from bump driving requires contact :P This effect in GT5 for some reason doesnt require contact...

Quote from jibber :

Actually they did improve the AI. They are still terrible, sure. But i've actually been in situations where the AI did avoid crashing into me (like going into a corner side by side, where in previous GT titles, the AI would simply stay to their racing line and crash into you). Aswell when they make a mistake and happen to get off the track, they look out for you and wait with getting back on track until you are out of their way. But yeah, overall they are still pretty dumb.

About the bad physics... did you go into the options aswell and set the wheel options to simulation too? Not only the driving options you see everytime you join a race? Because honestly, even if the physics are not as great as LFS, and not quite as good as Forza 2, they sure are not what i would call "bad". The problem in GT5P however is, as soon as settings are in some kind of arcade mode, physics are a complete joke. And it's not too hard to miss a setting if you don't look through all the options etc.

Yes everything was set to simulation, including wheel simulation etc checked all the settings when I was looking how to get the clutch working. :P

And no doubt the AI has been improved but tbh I was expecting such a long development process to field better results.