Quote from Alias Driver :

Seriously though, I've had the Japanese version since a couple of days after release (and played every GT title to completion including all the prologues) and it was dissatisfaction after a month or two that led me here to LFS (which I read about on the GTPlanet forums).

Welcome

Quote :

- I've got a sneaking suspicion (or perhaps it's just wishful thinking) that the last big delay in GT5 (the one that pushed it back about a year) is due to the implementation of a damage system. Kazunori has said it'll have to be perfect (not just visually but physical modeling of damage and the impact to handling) and while perfection is in the eye of the beholder, it'd be nice to finally shut those Xbox360/Forza retards up! :P

At one point damage was already cancelled (sometime in last summer) then promised again. Since that Kazunori has always kept it "on the table" but because concrete evidence is still missing, I don't believe it will be included. PD has also said "other games are using 'simplified' damage" and they want to do it perfect. Obviously that can't be done totally perfectly. So he keeps it so simplified that it actually doesn't exist.

Interesting that the good old "car manufacturers don't allow damage" reason (and partly excuse) has been dropped which seemed to be the main reason in GT4...

And about damage in LFS vs. GT - not really something we can brag about. But least when you crash a wall at 300 km/h in LFS the race is done.

Quote :

- The fact that the GT series will be played predominantly by people with sixaxis controllers means that the physics model HAS to be dumbed down so that cars will accept the all on or all off brake and accelerator. Yes you can run with simulation mode and a G25 but the underlying physics remains suspect.

I'm also of the belief that the limitations enforced on PD through having to primarily support steering using a sixaxis (be it buttons or analog stick) are the reason that donuts and figure eights aren't possible.

Quite simply GT5:P doesn't have that level of detail in the car physics that LFS has. GT5:P is more forgiving and it needs to be to keep the "average" console GT player happy.

Everyone understands this. It's just the skewed marketing which makes people think GT is teh real life, that gives at least for me high blood pressure.

Quote :

- If I was Scawen/Eric/Victor, I'd personally be working on the fundamentals for the final S2 release and it wouldn't be until S3 that I'd start introducing new cars and tracks. It makes business sense (gives a good reason for people to upgrade from S2) and it makes sense from a development standpoint (there's no point in having bling if the fundamentals suck).

This is probably close what they're trying to do. For example the BMW-Sauber and Formula BMW deals kind of came suddenly to the picture and obviously were too good to pass. Scawen has mentioned few times that he wants to get rid off the current "alpha" tag because it certainly does more bad than good (makes people think the game is unfinished and unpolished, while it's only unfinished). In LFS's development time is the biggest issue.

@ Alias Driver: Well stated. 'nuff said.

Quote from Tobsen00 :

is there a possibility to create setups in GT5?
last GT i remember was GT3 on PS2 and there was no setup thingy :/

GT5 also is a great game, on its own way.!

Yes, it was already possible in GT4, only 3 slots per car tho...

Is it just me that thinks that seinfed and alias driver is the same person posting different opinions?

Yes. Seinfeld could never write so eloquently.

lol

Quote from Kanzai :

I love his horrible comparison. Real tyre physics? You know LFS has one of the most advanced tyre physics of all games? lol.


This guy gets a big....huge.....even bigger then huge.

EPIC FAIL

In big red letters.

the normal cars in LFS , like the stock ones, like the XR, XF, RAC, all the ones that use the radial tyres, I 100% agree that they are pretty much bang on, mo issues there.

when it comes to the GTRs and the open wheelers, its totally wrong, you cant run 4 degrees negative camber (live) on R3 tyres without them over heating after 5 -6 laps, and thats just wrong, alot of racing cars, run up to 6 degreees neg camber,run 60 lap race with 1 or 2 tyre changes and get thru a race just fine,
V* supercars here in australia run controlled dunlop slicks they usually after 10-15 laps they are good to go for another 10 if they get a good cool down cycle, in lfs the suspension, and tyres are totally wrong, the BF1 for example, if we say the R1 is the supersoft (used in monte carlo) they last 10ish laps in real life, we cant use them for bf1. 2nd R2's are the soft 20 odd laps is easy they did in melbourne, in the game u cant get 7 laps with decent camber and decent downforce. with R3's 4-5 neg camber +6 castor, med/high downforce) ect its totally wrong, the tyres need to be unique for each car because each series has a specific tyre developed for those cars, atm they are to generic, GT5 has always had decent tyre physics, ok the squeel is terribuble I know, im gana write a letter about it lolz. so no tyres are crap in lfs besides the road cars

Quote from Alric :

I got GT5 from japan a few months back and while it's good visualy and has real cars and tracks the handling is just pathetic. I've spent a lot of time on the track and on the road and the cars handle nothing like real life. LFS is so much closer than any other game at copying how a real car handles.

I don't understand how people can't see that GT5 handling is really very very poor. (Feels like the cars are floating.)

Plus how can you complain that LFS has limited content when GT5 prologue is basically a demo you have to pay for.

No matter how many threads like this appear it won't make scawen & co change their development strategies.

were u using a wheel? if you were you forgot to put the mode into simulation, turn of power assistance. and you would of had a smile ear to ear. probably because its in jap u couldn't read it. to bad I hope u try again, with english copy.
for 60 cars, and 12 tracks ill pay 49 buks no worries, I payed 40 for a non finished game, with minimal content, needing improvments, and terrible GFX (live for speed) so why not for a tried and tested game?
take a step back from your LFS bubble world, you payed the exact same thing for a much less game, wake up!

So where is the tire deformation in your beloved GT5 Prologue?

Quote from The Very End :

Even tho it compares LFS and GT5 with eachothers, why is this not in off topic sector?

Anyway, I don`t agree with what he said, but I think there are too many fanboys of LFS here, that thinks they are like god`s themself since they can drive a lap around BL without crashing.

IMO lfs has better physics than GT5, but GT5 has a lot of good things LFS should have, and one of them is variety. LFS lacks that atm, and slowly it will lose players and fade away if they don`t show us some new work soon. It`s been way too long with the currents tracks, and makeing an extra track layout every 3th year isn`t great eighter. I wonder what they actually have done about the track section the last years.

Anyway, that post whent off topic, got carried away, but I`ll rest my case. LFS isn`t superior, and neither are you. Too many of you thinks that any other racing game is crap, because you belive LFS is the closest to the real thing a racing game comes to atm. I don`t blame you, I`ll agree with you, but I`m tired off all this flaming everytime someone actually have a constructive veiw on a other game and maybe points out negative things with LFS.

That was my 2 cents.

you know what would be great that I could say yes this is crap thats crap posting it. and a few things would happen in a good way.
1. it wouldnt get locked
2. I would have fellow members in a decent tone, saying sorry Idont agree with you, and rebuttle my comments (its called intelectual conversations) instead you get cavemen going RARRRRRRRRRRRRR beat you with a club, and throw you out to the wolves (hypothetically speaking)
3.no cynical comments like well piss off then ect, just constuctive posting.

anyway I hereby announce today 27th March 2008 and Beyond to be called Gran Turismo day its offical launch is today WOO HOO

Quote from jibber :

So where is the tire deformation in your beloved GT5 Prologue?

i dont know what the even is could you explain it to me in quick an easy terms please M8, i just posted my thoughts on tires just now

Quote from seinfeld :

you payed the exact same thing for a much less game, wake up!

Depends on your definition of "much less."

You could just as easily say that he paid the same thing for MUCH MORE.

If one person buys a Subaru for $45,000 and another buys a Lotus Elise for $45,000, which one got "much less?"

The Lotus driver would say that the Subaru owner got "much less" because the Subaru does not handle like his car, is not as fast as his car and does not look as cool as his car.

The Subaru owner would say that the Elise driver got "much less" because his car cannot carry the massive loads of camping gear that he stuffs in his car, and that his car cannot go off road and that he can't drive in adverse weather conditions without a great deal of difficulty.

It simply depends what you WANT out of it. Both games have their strong points, and both have their weak points. But for some people, only certain things matter - and that's what determines what is less and what is more.

You talk of tyre physics seems to relate to temperatures and life. Are you comparing the same compounds in both games?

All the tyres in LFS are relatively soft compound. They were tweaked at the last patch a bit iirc.

But when we talk about tyre physics, we mean things like force combining and slip simulation, not wear and tear stuff (which is of course completely wrong in GT4, but I can't comment about GT5 myself).

Quote from tristancliffe :

But when we talk about tyre physics, we mean things like force combining and slip simulation

So what do you know on the matter? Because I wouldn't dare comment on it in my own words, even if I had played both, and Todd's given me key pointers to watch out for. LFS' tyres definitely have some flaws. You completely dismiss the possibility that GT can do better in these areas based on the fact that it's marketed for the masses. The fact of the matter is that it's actually not unlikely that GT will have better tyre physics than LFS. Sure, the aids dumb it down but you can turn them off.

Most people in this thread have missed the sole true reason as to why there's still a market for niche games such as LFS: organised racing. Good luck trying to find a good race online with balanced cars in GT, nevermind a proper league.

Instead everyone's just signing the same song about simulation vs arcade. But look at Forza 2 - its underlying physics actually feels very good and as GT is one of the main PS3 titles, they better make it at least as good.

well i'm gonna buy it, cause it looks great and this time playable online. Just will be fun on my 32Inch LCD TV

Quote from seinfeld :

i dont know what the even is could you explain it to me in quick an easy terms please M8, i just posted my thoughts on tires just now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... HT2CY&feature=related

Can't believe you've played LFS without ever having noticed tire deformation...

Quote from Michel 4AGE :

Wow that F1 car looks like it's glued to the track lol. I don't even see a little bit of understeer/oversteer, it's like planted on the track lol.
It looks.. clinical (?)

Have you watched ANY of 2008?
And yes, even in years before that the cars over and understeered, though computer gizmos kept it to a minimum if you watch you could still see the cars twitch.

Quote from lalathegreat :

oversteer = realistic?

In a car with over 900hp and down around 1k LBS that is driving on grass....well yeah.
Did you watch Malaysia? Massa set out to prove rFactors snap oversteer is real.

GT5. So much prettyness, so little content.

Quote from Dajmin :

That Wiki image is old. They've now stolen the old Peugeot tag of "The drive of your life".

I couldn't find a newer cover pic with Google...

Quote from seinfeld :

the normal cars in LFS , like the stock ones, like the XR, XF, RAC, all the ones that use the radial tyres, I 100% agree that they are pretty much bang on, mo issues there.

when it comes to the GTRs and the open wheelers, its totally wrong, you cant run 4 degrees negative camber (live) on R3 tyres without them over heating after 5 -6 laps, and thats just wrong, alot of racing cars, run up to 6 degreees neg camber,run 60 lap race with 1 or 2 tyre changes and get thru a race just fine,
V* supercars here in australia run controlled dunlop slicks they usually after 10-15 laps they are good to go for another 10 if they get a good cool down cycle, in lfs the suspension, and tyres are totally wrong, the BF1 for example, if we say the R1 is the supersoft (used in monte carlo) they last 10ish laps in real life, we cant use them for bf1. 2nd R2's are the soft 20 odd laps is easy they did in melbourne, in the game u cant get 7 laps with decent camber and decent downforce. with R3's 4-5 neg camber +6 castor, med/high downforce) ect its totally wrong, the tyres need to be unique for each car because each series has a specific tyre developed for those cars, atm they are to generic, GT5 has always had decent tyre physics, ok the squeel is terribuble I know, im gana write a letter about it lolz. so no tyres are crap in lfs besides the road cars

So you're complaining about this, some of even valid points, but at the same time you completely forget that GT5:P doesn't have any kind of tyre wear?

Quote from seinfeld :

well thanks guys for acknowledging that I have some valid points, and I do realize that some of you dont agree with me. for the guys that watched that video, it did have assists on, because the cars dont handle like that with it in simulation mode, and no steering help. I also turn off all acs (stability) and no TCS, and I am so amazed with it, when my roommate comes home with a digital camera, ill get him to record me while playing it on a g25, and ill show you how the over and understeers is, also the smile on my face as well.

I know that when I bought this game i was investing in it, not buying a full game, but that was 2 years ago, and it hasnt come very far since then, even investors even High risk investors like to see some progress or regression sure some patches have been rolled out. but in todays market, thats just too long, and the graphics are inexcusable for the level of technology we have, it should be DX10 capable by now even just DX9 would be great.GFX like (and i do mean like not the actual game here) Need for speed underground 2 or similar should be the level most games should be at. I do commend the devs for finally getting AA and AF into the game, although it offers nothing really with the current engine which suggest this is the start of a GFX revamp, and I really hope so guys.

to all the guys that like to be rude and mean, you are of course entitled to your own opinion, and I know you are all hardcore devoted fans to LFS, and I commend you for sticking up for the devs and the game, but comon you must admit your frustrated with the current offering.

someone said that if the devs released a new S3, and I would be upset that I would pay another 30 pounds, well no I wouldnt I would have no issues about giving the guys some extra cash to keep it going, and im sure it would be worth it (S3)

and as i said australia has next to noone racing anymore, I have to race on UK, USA servers all the time with +200 pings, unless i wana drift then its a diff story.

as i said LFS is going on my top shelf of games, only the best of games go on the top shelf, and they can be brought down to be re visited especially if there is a patch.

someone just called me ungratefull, how am i ungratefull, I payed for the game just like you, and I have my expectations, and they havent been met im afraid.
it doesnt mean im ungratefull as i said
LFS was there when i was bored, LFS was there when I was sad, LFS was there when I wanted to race, scawen, and victor were there when i had problems and corrected them instantly, so no im not ungratefull im extremly gratefull for the time we had, and the game was good. so dont call me that, because its not true at all

We have really good racing every monday night with the Oz Bee guys, MNR normally has fields of 40-50 guys on two servers.

Then theres the AAL league that runs monthly and LFSEA that runs as realistic as possible race meets every month.

So FFS dont say theres no racing to be had in Oz...

And on another note i can race the euro servers on a basic adsl plan with next to no warping or lag, your entitled to lick the sweat off GT5 and yes the dev process is like way way to long but please dont compare GT5 to any sim Rtractor included...

Fair call^

Since I started with the S1 demo and up until I stopped racing regularly there have always been enough Aussie servers. I visited the Oz Bee guys more than once and would've continued with the AAL were it not for my shocking dialup lag. Now I have decent broadband I can hit Conedodgers or CTRA or nearly any foreign server for a quick scrap with no major issues. The point is even if there aren't any local servers up, there's still plenty of racing available for us Down Here. And even if there was a consistent lack of servers for us it certainly wouldn't be the fault of the developers.

On topic, I just don't think a GT5/LFS comparison is a valid one, regardless of the hardware you use. I haven't played GT5 yet, but it'll have to be a truly massive step up from GT4 physics-wise if it's going to come anywhere near being a true simulator. For example: in GT4, with a tweaked 500+hp Dodge Charger, I couldn't get it to lose traction and spin. I couldn't even lightly 4w-drift it into a corner let alone kick the back all the way out and power-oversteer through it - all I got was ploughing understeer like I was driving my girlfriend's old Corolla. Maybe it's due to me just using the analog pad, I dunno, but I doubt it (I may load GT4 up tonight and just confirm that). So please do post a vid of you and your best hardware doing exactly what you can in an LFS car, ie affecting something approaching real car behaviour, because I'd be interested to see it. Being able to kick the back out realistically isn't the be-all and end-all of car games of course. I used that as my example because the one thing I expected to be able to do with a monstrous FR muscle car was lose traction at the rear very easily under heavy braking and into corners, which did not happen.

Quote from Hotdogxx60 :

When I first come on the LFS scene there was at least 10 or so servers, now I'll be lucky to get 2 or 3 for racing. I'll still love the game but it would be nice to have more home grown racing.

It's the expense. I host a dedicated server in the states that costs me $49USD per month. To host the same server here in Australia would cost me $1000AUD per month.

Unless you can talk you ISP into hosting an LFS server in amongst their other game servers, it's simply to expensive to setup a private server out here due to the high cost of Data transfer thanks to Telstra's near monopoly of back haul data in Australia.

Quote from seinfeld :

GT5 has always had decent tyre physics, ok the squeel is terribuble I know, im gana write a letter about it lolz. so no tyres are crap in lfs besides the road cars

are you being serious?

have you ever tried the N1 to N3 tires? They have very very little friction to the road once you get it past the normal slip angle, its very obvious when you do the Eiger Nordwand course and take on the down hill hairpins, with the these tires the cars will understeer in extremely weird manner - they could suddenly break into understeer half way through the turn without anything triggering it, and it will just stop turning as if all friction is gone, the car just skid straight to the outside of the turn.

The S3 tire provide the most realistic grip value for road cars. but its behaviour under power sliding is totally wrong, if you try to break its traction, the rear will "vibrate" and rear seemingly had a kick to the side however there's no more decrease in traction, the rear just bounce side to side, and you can't control the amount of grip by putting load/unload on it, just take a ISF and try to break the rear around on the esses.

I think something is wrong when you can detail the flaw in LFS tire model while completely blinded by the ridiculous ones in GT5.....GT5's tire model is not remotely as good as say Rfactor. It doesn't make sense to me when you say LFS's tire physics is crap while you can happily enjoy GT5 which by your definition should be crap with fresh cum ejeculated over it.

Played some GT5, controller and also wheel...., still same old driving physics and HORRIBLE sounds that I don't like. Forza 2 is still the gold standard of a console driving simulation, hands down. I don't see how one could argue GT5 is better for driving, it just isn't good at all, and the feel hasn't even evolved from GT4 which is a big tell-tale sign that not much has changed, or Polyphony has no desire to make it better. A shame.

However, GT5 wins with good looks, that's about it. And that about sums GT5 up.