Since the question of having bikes in LFS has created quite a stir, I thought Id stir it up again. Not about yes or no should there be bikes in LFS, this is more for those intelligent and productive discussions about how a bikes steers and how you would impliment that in a sim.

The debate has been body steering. Some say yes, you need your body to steer, some say no. I have said no, you dont need or use your body to turn a bike and there have been many arguments to that.

So with that, the r/c motorycle evidence and these two articles on the subject of countersteering and body steering, I hope we can put this portion of the subject to rest:
Article One - http://thekneeslider.com/archi ... ering-and-the-no-bs-bike/
Aricle Two - http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.htm

Now unless there is someone on this forum that is a world champion motorcycle racer and/or racing instructor, and that thinks Keith Code and his No BS Bike are a crock, prove it.

It wasn't really in debate, and has been discussed several times over the years. Your links have already been posted too I believe (not looked at them, but Keith Code's words have been on this forum).

Regardless of the physics, it's the complete lack of controllers that limit their inclusion properly. And I don't see a viable way of making a controller anyway, unless you either ALWAYS countersteer (wrong), ALWAYS lean (wrong), or always steer in the right direction (wrong), or a combination of them all (wrong).... Not something that'll be solved in a short while.

But I suppose there is nothing to stop Scawen doing what Kunos has done with nKP, and totally ignore nK whilst playing with a retarded bike sim, and then trying to claim that the half-assed work is somehow helping nK... But I think Scawen is a lot less stupid than Kunos (though I haven't met Kunos and therefore couldn't say for certain )

You will fall over if you don't use your body to turn a bike.
Plus, it looks real stupid if you don't lean while turning, ever saw anyone not leaning in motoGP? (I didn't, but I don't watch it either)

So you don't need it to turn the bike, but you do need it to stay on the bike.

Bikes in LFS do work. You don't control the steering wheel or angle with your wheel, but simply the direction the bike should go. LFS will then adjust the steering wheel position and the leaning angle.

Really, it does.

Thats just it, finding out exactly what speed a bike goes from regular steering to counter steering.

My kids race pocket bikes and steer the motorcycle like that would their push bikes. Having raced 600cc class bikes, I cannot get on my pocket bike and steer regularly, always want to counter steer; I almost crashed trying to steer normaly.

Its probably been said, but the steering input has to come from the game to know when to switch from regular to counter.

The thread to was refresh everyone that feels body movement is how you steer a bike is incorrect and that we need to move passed that and focus on the counter steering aspect of controling a motorcycle.

So, if all the steering is done using the handle bars, and none through body steering, how is it possible for bikes (bicycles and motorbikes) to be ridden with 'no hands'?

I think the relevant words in the article, are 'the priciple method' of steering.
If body steering didn't help you go round corners, do you really think you'd see every profession bike racer throwing themselves around in the saddle the way they do?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Regardless of the physics, it's the complete lack of controllers that limit their inclusion properly. And I don't see a viable way of making a controller anyway, unless you either ALWAYS countersteer (wrong), ALWAYS lean (wrong), or always steer in the right direction (wrong), or a combination of them all (wrong).... Not something that'll be solved in a short while.

Seems like part of tristans post needs to be seen again.

There's no point in arguing with this. Sim could be made long time ago, good controler isn't made yet.
Try driving a bigger bike (legal) and you'll see the major difference in car sim and bike sim.

http://forum.rscnet.org/showpo ... =3735859&postcount=96
^something from RSC

Edit: I thought my post would be under Erik's, little slow with typing.

Tourist Trophy for PS2 wasn't bad (Basically GT4 with bikes instead of cars). But obviously, you use a PS2 controller, which has no "lean" axis...

To steer, you just turn like you would a car. The game then calculated how far you would need to lean to make the next corner, did some fancy-ass calculations with your velocity and turn angle, and then hey-presto, the bike leaned to a realistic amount. That game had some of the best bike-related physics/graphics I've seen in a while...

It would be cool if LFS could do the same

That kinda takes whole fun out of riding a bike?

Quote from need :

So, if all the steering is done using the handle bars, and none through body steering, how is it possible for bikes (bicycles and motorbikes) to be ridden with 'no hands'?

I think the relevant words in the article, are 'the priciple method' of steering.
If body steering didn't help you go round corners, do you really think you'd see every profession bike racer throwing themselves around in the saddle the way they do?

Quoted from article two: Now, by body steering we’re not talking about hanging off the bike to increase leanover clearance.

This is no end of a debate. It's the start of one. Get your tittles right.

I don't much care for bikes, real or simulated. But the same principle aplies to them as cars.

It's not going to be a simulator unless you have the proper controls.

Real bikes need to be steered with your body. That is a fact.

If you get the soft to calculate everything why not just use one button. You press it once and the bike drives around the track. You press it again and it stops.

Put simply, the difference between car sims and bike sims is that the most important aspects that are absent in the car sims (physical forces, counter-forces, weight transfer etc) are the very things that a bike sim would fundamentally depend on as inputs.

Quote from March Hare :

Real bikes need to be steered with your body. That is a fact.

Are you kidding me? Did you study rocket science and know this for a fact, 100% dispite proffesional views on the subject from riders, racers and instructors?

Thanks for coming out, and NOT reading the FACTS before you posted.

READ THE FACTS BEFORE POSTING PLEASE!

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

It would be cool if LFS could do the same

Read my post. LFS does it all.

I don't think this thread was necessary. It's not ending a debate, it's simply fanning the flames that had died down in another thread a while back.

Everything you have posted is true. Steering can be done with the body alone (steering mass distribution and geometry means that steering will automatically turn in the direction a bike is rolling (leaning), so lean it over and it will self-right itself), but at speed that method is imprecise, very very very slow and relatively totally ineffective compared with what happens when you push or pull a handlebar.

Quote from Motordirex :

Its probably been said, but the steering input has to come from the game to know when to switch from regular to counter.

there is no switch you always use countersteering if you want to be fast and precise and body steering works through counstersteering as well

Quote from sinbad :

I don't think this thread was necessary. It's not ending a debate, it's simply fanning the flames that had died down in another thread a while back.

Everything you have posted is true. Steering can be done with the body alone (steering mass distribution and geometry means that steering will automatically turn in the direction a bike is rolling (leaning), so lean it over and it will self-right itself), but at speed that method is imprecise, very very very slow and relatively totally ineffective compared with what happens when you push or pull a handlebar.

FLAME ON!

What a well-thought out & relevant post.

Sinbad had a point - this is just a repost of the existing debate. So far it's been a re-run of the points covered in the original over at Improvement Suggestions, and you've already started shouting at people

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

You will fall over if you don't use your body to turn a bike.

Rubbish. Without the subtle movement of your body, it is a bit harder to balance, but that is all.

Quote from BlakjeKaas :

Plus, it looks real stupid if you don't lean while turning, ever saw anyone not leaning in motoGP? (I didn't, but I don't watch it either)

As stated, for ground clearence reasons, and prevent the tyres from leaning quite as much (I think 45° is optimum for grip?).

Quote from hrtburnout :

Bikes in LFS do work. You don't control the steering wheel or angle with your wheel, but simply the direction the bike should go. LFS will then adjust the steering wheel position and the leaning angle.

Really, it does.

Funny, that's not how it worked in LFS last time I checked. Nor on a real bike.

The main issue, as I see it, with a bike sim is input/output lag with the force feedback on a handlebar controller.

Quote from Shotglass :

there is no switch you always use countersteering if you want to be fast and precise and body steering works through counstersteering as well

What about at 1km/h? Or when pushing it out of a garage? In that instance you turn INTO the turn. So at some point there must be a change over?

I see lots of problems with bringing bikes into LFS in a way that's worth doing it at all. There are lots of dynamics at play and I can't perceive of a controller, short of a whole arcade-style ride-on thang, that would be intuitive enough to make any sense.

I don't think you can turn a bike without some measure of balancing/re-balancing, any more than you can stay on a bike in a straight line while leaning and without counter-balancing. And you don't just shift your weight from side to side, you often lift yer butt and plant it, sometimes to use different mechanisms in preparation to tug your bike into the corner by the bars. The result of doing so is different and important. You also twitch the bars as you lean in, sometimes.. you stand on the pegs so you can pitch the bike from side to side quickly as needed, at low speeds.. geez, there's a myriad of different ways to avoid falling off your bike, depending on the straight or the corner, and your velocity.

Unless you have a controller that allows you to use all of these different "axes", I'm not sure there's any point.

People that say a bike could be simulated in LFS and driven like a bike in real life, obviosuly have never raced a bike in real life, and don't have a clue how a bike is controlled on the limit.

Eg. to stop the back wheel of a bike sliding, you don't do anything with the steering. You apply weight to the foot pedals. To stop the back wheel from locking up under braking, you lean backwards. To stop the front tucking in, around a corner, you lean forwards. Pretty much all these rider inputs cannot be simulated with simple controls like a car can. Its just not possible.

Sticking to the back wheel sliding example: When in a car, to stop the back wheels sliding you only have 3 inputs that you can make to the car: Steering, throttle, and brake. Those are the ONLY things you can do. When riding a bike you can move your body around to an infinite number of positions and apply different amounts of weight on the foot rests and handle bars. You can change the wieght distribution of the bike with your body (Front:Back and Left:Right). There is no easy way to simulate these at home, because if you lean to the right when sitting still at home, there is no restoring force generated from turning so you will fall over (off your chair).

Quote from SamH :

Unless you have a controller that allows you to use all of these different "axes", I'm not sure there's any point.

Totally agree. Of course you could add bikes to LFS, but it would be against LFS's principles and goals. The whole "to body steer or not to body steer" thing shoots as far off the topic as does that title. The debate ended before it started.

Quote from word. :

People that say a bike could be simulated in LFS and driven like a bike in real life, obviosuly have never raced a bike in real life, and don't have a clue how a bike is controlled on the limit.

Eg. to stop the back wheel of a bike sliding, you don't do anything with the steering. You apply weight to the foot pedals. To stop the back wheel from locking up under braking, you lean backwards. To stop the front tucking in, around a corner, you lean forwards. Pretty much all these rider inputs cannot be simulated with simple controls like a car can. Its just not possible.

Sticking to the back wheel sliding example: When in a car, to stop the back wheels sliding you only have 3 inputs that you can make to the car: Steering, throttle, and brake. Those are the ONLY things you can do. When riding a bike you can move your body around to an infinite number of positions and apply different amounts of weight on the foot rests and handle bars. You can change the wieght distribution of the bike with your body (Front:Back and Left:Right). There is no easy way to simulate these at home, because if you lean to the right when sitting still at home, there is no restoring force generated from turning so you will fall over (off your chair).

Your name suits what I want to said, word.
I totally agree with whats written here, and thats the main point of why motorcycles should't be in LFS.
IMO!

Yes of course, if you wanted a 100% realistic training-worthy simulation of riding a bike, then you'd have to have all the weight distribution stuff built in. But I still think body weight movement could largely be automatic, it doesn't even really need to be there at all, it certainly doesn't have to be as complicated as people are making out.

If we have control over the major inputs of throttle, brakes, clutch/gears and steering and allow the computer to make the basic weight distribution movements automatically, it's not rocket science- riders all do the same basic things, then we would still have a fairly realistic representation of what it's like to ride a bike using these control inputs.

Bike sim, not "All the aspects of riding a" Bike Sim, we could have Karts without the body weight, head tucking stuff right? It might be less important than on a bike, but that's the argument you're making. "No to karts until we have a controller that lets us physically lean in or out of a corner and tuck our heads in along the straights."

Anyway, I'm getting deja-vu.