The car my dad race car it totally different though 750kg with 400bhp, the rears wont last long, they are motorsport compound A048's.

People that race with my dad inc Martin Donnely, no doubt you know him changes his tyres at about the same time and so do all the others, britcar drivers etc, so i don't think he is blowing money doing it.

If you wanted to run a 5 year old Dallara in Club F3, for example, near the back of the grid (i.e. saving money where possible, and doing as much on your own as you can), then your annual budget will be around £30,000 - £60,000, not including the cost of the car, or the hire of extras.

This is a series (not a championship), and you won't 'get any further' by being spotted in it.

If you want to race something like Monoposto or F4, then you could (using the present rules) get a car (between £5k and £30k), and do a season of racing on about £10k.

Parts are expensive (Dallaras) or virtually impossible to buy (Reynard, Ralt etc) unless you find someone with some second hand parts. Therefore you'll need to be able to make stuff yourself, or find a company that is happy to make one offs as and when to short deadlines - not cheap.

Preparing the car yourself - there is NOTHING special about single seaters. They obey the same laws of physics as a road car. If you know about cars there is no reason why some threads on a racing car will be any different - though of course their sensitivity to change might be in a different league!


This is for me:

The car was bought entirely for the hell of it, with no intentions to use it in competition. It was between £5k and £10k as seen (running).
The 'team' consists of my father and myself. We do everything from engine changes/overhauls to making brackets to wiring it, to running it on the day, to setting it up and, of course, driving it. We had no prior knowledge of single seaters, but loads of engineering and road cars.
Our budget isn't really known - it's simply the least we can get away with without giving up huge advantages - we run the hardest compound on the grid to save buying new tyres for example. I would estimate that the running of the car costs between £2k and £5k per year.
Entry fees are around £200 per race, and there are 13 rounds - so £2600 for that.
Travel costs are probably about the same as the entry fees etc.

I'd put our annual budget at an unofficial £10k to £15k all in, but if we can save money within reason we will. Having said that, pit monitors, pit boards, onboard cameras, laptiming displays etc are non-essential addons, but ones we felt gave a large assistancerice ratio, or were particularly interesting/educational.

Only part of our remit is the racing - the fact that we put in over 150 hours in the garage prior to EACH race demonstrates that the engineering side of things is very important - if we didn't enjoy preparing the car we wouldn't bother going racing.

My social life is in tatters (though I try to squeeze in one evening a fortnight or three weeks for friends. My bank balance is pretty much dead - every spare penny I earn goes into the racing. Additional funds that I cannot afford are then requested (but not guaranteed) from my father. I work 9 - 6 at work, then 6:30 - 10:00 on the race car pretty much every night. This is for a 15 minute practice and a 15 minute race with no chance of climbing any ladders within the sport, or any prospect of being paid to do it.

And it's ABSOLUTELY FECKING WORTH IT!

Quote from tristancliffe :

If you wanted to run a 5 year old Dallara in Club F3, for example, near the back of the grid (i.e. saving money where possible, and doing as much on your own as you can), then your annual budget will be around £30,000 - £60,000, not including the cost of the car, or the hire of extras.

This is a series (not a championship), and you won't 'get any further' by being spotted in it.

If you want to race something like Monoposto or F4, then you could (using the present rules) get a car (between £5k and £30k), and do a season of racing on about £10k.

Parts are expensive (Dallaras) or virtually impossible to buy (Reynard, Ralt etc) unless you find someone with some second hand parts. Therefore you'll need to be able to make stuff yourself, or find a company that is happy to make one offs as and when to short deadlines - not cheap.

Preparing the car yourself - there is NOTHING special about single seaters. They obey the same laws of physics as a road car. If you know about cars there is no reason why some threads on a racing car will be any different - though of course their sensitivity to change might be in a different league!


This is for me:

The car was bought entirely for the hell of it, with no intentions to use it in competition. It was between £5k and £10k as seen (running).
The 'team' consists of my father and myself. We do everything from engine changes/overhauls to making brackets to wiring it, to running it on the day, to setting it up and, of course, driving it. We had no prior knowledge of single seaters, but loads of engineering and road cars.
Our budget isn't really known - it's simply the least we can get away with without giving up huge advantages - we run the hardest compound on the grid to save buying new tyres for example. I would estimate that the running of the car costs between £2k and £5k per year.
Entry fees are around £200 per race, and there are 13 rounds - so £2600 for that.
Travel costs are probably about the same as the entry fees etc.

I'd put our annual budget at an unofficial £10k to £15k all in, but if we can save money within reason we will. Having said that, pit monitors, pit boards, onboard cameras, laptiming displays etc are non-essential addons, but ones we felt gave a large assistancerice ratio, or were particularly interesting/educational.

Only part of our remit is the racing - the fact that we put in over 150 hours in the garage prior to EACH race demonstrates that the engineering side of things is very important - if we didn't enjoy preparing the car we wouldn't bother going racing.

My social life is in tatters (though I try to squeeze in one evening a fortnight or three weeks for friends. My bank balance is pretty much dead - every spare penny I earn goes into the racing. Additional funds that I cannot afford are then requested (but not guaranteed) from my father. I work 9 - 6 at work, then 6:30 - 10:00 on the race car pretty much every night. This is for a 15 minute practice and a 15 minute race with no chance of climbing any ladders within the sport, or any prospect of being paid to do it.

And it's ABSOLUTELY FECKING WORTH IT!

Cheers, you come across a bit harsh sometimes but you give good advice on the racing side of things. You never know if you may get spotted, all it takes in for someone who works in a racing team to go along to one of the races and watch. I have heard it happen a few times.
Well anyway, cheers for your help. I think it'll be best now for me to read up on the different types of events and how much the cars are, I'll use that link you sent me for the cars, racecardirect.com

In theory there is a small probability you'll get spotted by some small team manager enjoying a day out at a club event. But the probability is so small that it's not worth spending more than 2 seconds thinking about it.

Club racing is about having fun - that is all. Some forms are cheaper than others, some forms are faster than others (and cheaper doesn't necessarily mean slower!). The lucky few (lets say average grids of 20, with say 4 different winners per year or so - so on that basis on 20% of people win, and 80% of people never reach the top step. How much you want to win, how much money you can afford to throw at it, and how much time you can dedicate to achieving whatever goals you set yourself defines your progress.

Last year my SINGLE goal was to bring the car home each time out, and learn at least one new thing per session.
This year my goal is to a) win my class and b) beat as many of the modern cars as freqently as I can. That shift of values changes the pressure a HUGE amount, because I have expectations. It's not a case of lifting in a corner I don't feel confident about anymore, it's about making sure I am confident enough in the first place! Judging by Snetterton I won't be happy with anything less than podiums overall, and a minimum of a class win every single race.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

The car my dad race car it totally different though 750kg with 400bhp, the rears wont last long, they are motorsport compound A048's.

People that race with my dad inc Martin Donnely, no doubt you know him changes his tyres at about the same time and so do all the others, britcar drivers etc, so i don't think he is blowing money doing it.

15 sets of A048s a season? What are you doing back to back 24 hour races?

My Dad's Morgan also runs A048s they'll stay on the car for at least 2 years of racing, driving to events and road usage. They're road all weather road tires and whilst not ideal in the wet or snow they got us up a snowy icey M42 to Snett on Sunday, just (somebody else did spin out on the motorway driving to the event). Most club racers use them in the wet because buying and carrying more tires is a waste of money and a non-starter for those driving to an event.

In case you've not noticed Britcar is an endurance racing series with cars running big Dunlop slicks, which typically last 2 to 2.5 hours, although there's a guy I know who ran a 3 hours race at Spa to prove it could be done, he won his class then they disintegrated on the slowing down lap. Don't even start bullshitting about A048s in Britcar because they aren't eligible.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Preparing the car yourself - there is NOTHING special about single seaters. They obey the same laws of physics as a road car. If you know about cars there is no reason why some threads on a racing car will be any different - though of course their sensitivity to change might be in a different league!

Very true, it's all really simple stuff, much easier to do than sorting problems on modern road cars. The difference between road cars and single seaters is that everything you do is more important, one little thing you don't pick up on can end in disaster and you've got to sort things in a very short amount of time. As Tristan says they are very sensitive that being said our cars have run with broken uprights on the grounds 'it'll probably be alright because that corner isn't loaded that much', hastily welded suspension and one of the best has to be noticing the camber adjuster is loose in the assembly area running qualifying with active camber then aralditing it in for the race. After every meeting when we get away with doing something dodgey we come away saying that we'll never do that again

Quote :

Our budget isn't really known

That statement is true for all motor racing, be prepared for a part that you didn't make letting go the minute you put it on the rollers or getting taken out at the first corner of the first race of the season.

Quote :

My social life is in tatters (though I try to squeeze in one evening a fortnight or three weeks for friends.

It helps not having many *runs*

Quote from sam93 :

Cheers, you come across a bit harsh sometimes but you give good advice on the racing side of things. You never know if you may get spotted, all it takes in for someone who works in a racing team to go along to one of the races and watch. I have heard it happen a few times.

Quote from tristancliffe :

In theory there is a small probability you'll get spotted by some small team manager enjoying a day out at a club event. But the probability is so small that it's not worth spending more than 2 seconds thinking about it.

If you race in F4 you will be seen and unless you've got a 6 figure budget and a lot of skill, beaten by a team that are the reigning champions in a big international championship, whose drivers will be paying large sums of money to race for them in the hope of getting spotted and offered a pay drive. They won't be interested in offering you a drive because in motor racing you won't get a free let alone paid drive until you've been put on the fast track to F1. Just give up all hope of getting anywhere from club racing, you could lap the field in the oldest slowest car and no body would take a blind bit of notice you are not going to have to dodge large bags of cash flying at you.

I would like to know the exact figure for the amount of pro drivers in British Motorsport. And I mean TRUE professional car/kart drivers.

Can't be more than 20-30?

Quote from ajp71 :

15 sets of A048s a season? What are you doing back to back 24 hour races?

My Dad's Morgan also runs A048s they'll stay on the car for at least 2 years of racing, driving to events and road usage. They're road all weather road tires and whilst not ideal in the wet or snow they got us up a snowy icey M42 to Snett on Sunday, just (somebody else did spin out on the motorway driving to the event). Most club racers use them in the wet because buying and carrying more tires is a waste of money and a non-starter for those driving to an event.

In case you've not noticed Britcar is an endurance racing series with cars running big Dunlop slicks, which typically last 2 to 2.5 hours, although there's a guy I know who ran a 3 hours race at Spa to prove it could be done, he won his class then they disintegrated on the slowing down lap. Don't even start bullshitting about A048s in Britcar because they aren't eligible.



Very true, it's all really simple stuff, much easier to do than sorting problems on modern road cars. The difference between road cars and single seaters is that everything you do is more important, one little thing you don't pick up on can end in disaster and you've got to sort things in a very short amount of time. As Tristan says they are very sensitive that being said our cars have run with broken uprights on the grounds 'it'll probably be alright because that corner isn't loaded that much', hastily welded suspension and one of the best has to be noticing the camber adjuster is loose in the assembly area running qualifying with active camber then aralditing it in for the race. After every meeting when we get away with doing something dodgey we come away saying that we'll never do that again



That statement is true for all motor racing, be prepared for a part that you didn't make letting go the minute you put it on the rollers or getting taken out at the first corner of the first race of the season.



It helps not having many *runs*

If you would have actually READ my post you would have seen that i said my dad usually chnages them every 4 or 5 races so thats 3 sets per season but he also does AMOC endurance races too.

I said that guys that HAVE run in britcar chnage their tyres at about the same time, doing a 24HR britcar race they must have some knowledge of when tyres needs changing!

Sick of repeating myself.

Last year we got a season out of the tyres. This year I'm hoping to do the same, but I suspect the radials, with more camber, will wear out quicker.

Apart from scrubbing in tyres with a properly applied heat cycle, I don't believe that tyres slow down with more heat cycles. There is no actual evidence of that occuring, because the teams that can detect it throw the tyres away before it's a problem (because they use them harder from cold, and can afford the slight performance advanatage a new tyre gives), whilst the teams that use tyres for a long time usually either have no choice, aren't good enough drivers (me), or don't race more than once per season on the same track...

I suspect we'll need a new set on standby after Spa, but I'd prefer to get a few more miles out of them.

Quote from ajp71 :

If you race in F4 you will be seen and unless you've got a 6 figure budget and a lot of skill, beaten by a team that are the reigning champions in a big international championship, whose drivers will be paying large sums of money to race for them in the hope of getting spotted and offered a pay drive. They won't be interested in offering you a drive because in motor racing you won't get a free let alone paid drive until you've been put on the fast track to F1. Just give up all hope of getting anywhere from club racing, you could lap the field in the oldest slowest car and no body would take a blind bit of notice you are not going to have to dodge large bags of cash flying at you.

I don't think I will be spotted, that will never happen. I ment it would be nice if when I was racing I was spotted thats all. I don't expect money to be thrown at me, I wont need racing for that if I can get the business I want to make gets up and running, at least I will know how to get that fired off as I am currently studyin Business Studies.
Anyway it is a long time to come yet before I will have the money to even buy a single seater. May have a few goes in a normal car racing first as they proberly a lot easier to learn with until moving to single seaters.

A quick look on the AMOC website reveals they're 30 minute races, hardly what I call endurance. In contrast Britcars shortest races are 100 minutes and a set of tires should do qualifying and a 100 minute race without there being any point in changing, after which the tires may be able to do another run but over such a distance it is very different.

Racing slicks are nothing like performance road tires and need to be replaced much more often. The Morgans also do 30 minute races and keenest people might go through 3 sets a season but that's the maximum there's any point in using, not the minimum. The concept of doing a qualifying session and a 30 minute race on A038s then throwing them out is ridiculous.

Driving on or near the limit is hard in any car. Single seaters just go a bit quicker at the limit, but are no more difficult. In fact, a car designed SOLELY for going round racing tracks is probably easier (to drive and work on) than a shopping trolley bodged around a bit.

If you aren't bothered by age you can get a late 80s or early 90s Formula Vauxhall Lotus ready to race for about the same price as a ready to race Fiesta. Either way you'll be at the back of the grid to start with (probably ).

Quote from tristancliffe :

Last year we got a season out of the tyres. This year I'm hoping to do the same, but I suspect the radials, with more camber, will wear out quicker.

So long as the wear is even they should do a season, the car we've got on radials certainly will with the tires Avon will sell you (which I think are '06 spec F3 and a slightly different compound than the '08 spec F3 tires which everybody seems to think are worth about 10 seconds a lap and I wouldn't be suprised if some F3 teams are flogging used tires at a profit).

Quote from tristancliffe :

Driving on or near the limit is hard in any car. Single seaters just go a bit quicker at the limit, but are no more difficult. In fact, a car designed SOLELY for going round racing tracks is probably easier (to drive and work on) than a shopping trolley bodged around a bit.

I second that for in terms of if something does go wrong and need fixing in the paddock but generally not a lot major mechanical goes wrong in production cars. The only technical drama in the Morgans at Snett was someone who failed scrutineering because he accidentally wired his isolator switch to isolate his tacho, pesky road cars with alternators

Quote :

If you aren't bothered by age you can get a late 80s or early 90s Formula Vauxhall Lotus ready to race for about the same price as a ready to race Fiesta. Either way you'll be at the back of the grid to start with (probably ).

I think that's a gross exaggeration , a perfectly good race Fiesta can be had for under £2000 and a tidy one with spares shouldn't set you back more than £4000.


A Vauxhall Lotus is likely to set you back £8000+ for a tidy one with some spares, if you aren't worried about winning and want to experience a single seater to begin with I'd suggest trying to find one that won't be competitive in the formula the owner has been/will be racing in. I know it sounds daft but you'll be less likely to be screwed over with a car that's hastily been re-setup to ensure that the new owner has to go through the process of sorting the car out as well as learning to drive a single seater. For a lot of people there's nothing worse than upgrading cars and being beaten by your old one so the best way to buy a single seater is to turn up at a track with an empty trailer and buy it straight after it has just finished a race.

I have been reading up on G-force and it says last year when kubica crashed experienced 75g at montreal and the strongest G-force survivied by a human was, David Purley who experienced 179.8g's and Kenny Brack who experienced 214g's. Both when crashing a racing car.
It says this under the Involuntarily section on g-force, provided by the usefull wikipedia site.

I was just wondering how do they train to tolerate this huge amount of g-force. I have seen the G-force simulators but they most do a lot more training then just this to withstand the amount of g-force they experience. I know they work out in the gym alot but is there a certain workout they do to be able to withstand g-force?

iirc the worst "place" for G-Force is on the neck and head, and so they work in these areas.

I don't think theres any workout you can do to lessen the effect of your body getting 75 times heavier.

Quote from Jakg :

I don't think theres any workout you can do to lessen the effect of your body getting 75 times heavier.

I know that, but being able to withstand 214g's he must of not been able to move for a while and every part of his body must of been aching. Obviously professional sportsmen/women are very fit, this must just what helps them out. I would love to feel 214g's though, making me wonder now what is must of felt like, well I would and I wouldn't.

I didnt read all the thread, just the title. Obvious... money, the only thing.. nothing else.... im sure all already said that...

Quote from sam93 :

I would love to feel 214g's though, making me wonder now what is must of felt like, well I would and I wouldn't.

seeing as your measly i presume 20-30g are enough for you to sue random people i dont think youd enjoy it much

Quote from Shotglass :

seeing as your measly i presume 20-30g are enough for you to sue random people i dont think youd enjoy it much

When I my dad finally gets round to bluetoothing me the pics of how bad I was he may see where I'm coming from about all that.
Anyway this isn't linked to my question. Only serious answers please, just don't post to try and dig at me about my accident.

Quote from sam93 :

I have been reading up on G-force and it says last year when kubica crashed experienced 75g at montreal and the strongest G-force survivied by a human was, David Purley who experienced 179.8g's and Kenny Brack who experienced 214g's. Both when crashing a racing car.

A mock up of the wreckage of David Purley's car is in the Donington Collection, the fact he survived that impact is a miracle, although the fact the car crushed so much may have been what saved his life at the expense of broken bones. The Kenny Brack crash was an almost immediate impact from tangling wheels that his body would have had no time to prepare for.

People can't train for these types of impacts, being physically healthy will reduce complications but a lot of it is down to luck, for every person who has survived a 100G crash there's a long list of those who haven't. Bottom line is racing is dangerous some people just get lucky some don't.

Quote from Jakg :

iirc the worst "place" for G-Force is on the neck and head, and so they work in these areas.

with hans nowerdays the main problem at these kind of accelerations should be that your organs are more or less free to flop around inside of you

Quote from ajp71 :

A mock up of the wreckage of David Purley's car is in the Donington Collection, the fact he survived that impact is a miracle, although the fact the car crushed so much may have been what saved his life at the expense of broken bones. The Kenny Brack crash was an almost immediate impact from tangling wheels that his body would have had no time to prepare for.

People can't train for these types of impacts, being physically healthy will reduce complications but a lot of it is down to luck, for every person who has survived a 100G crash there's a long list of those who haven't. Bottom line is racing is dangerous some people just get lucky some don't.

Really anything what moves these days is dangerous. I know motorsport is dangerous. When I did motorcross I was jumping a table top and when in the air a gust of wind pushed me to a side and a result made me and the bike hit the ground, the bike landed on my left leg and it has left me with a minor knee problems, likes to pop out now and again when I bend my leg. Oh well, I think that the enjoyment of motorsport, the adrenaline rush and the danger involved, obviously you think of the what if's but you just get out there and do what you do and it seems to all go away and it is over in no time. Well thats how it was for me in motorcross don't know in car racing never tried so I wouldn't know.

Quote from sam93 :

Really anything what moves these days is dangerous. I know motorsport is dangerous. When I did motorcross I was jumping a table top and when in the air a gust of wind pushed me to a side and a result made me and the bike hit the ground, the bike landed on my left leg and it has left me with a minor knee problems, likes to pop out now and again when I bend my leg. Oh well, I think that the enjoyment of motorsport, the adrenaline rush and the danger involved, obviously you think of the what if's but you just get out there and do what you do and it seems to all go away and it is over in no time. Well thats how it was for me in motorcross don't know in car racing never tried so I wouldn't know.

No motor racing is actually dangerous in a way riding your bike isn't. It is getting safer but you've got to accept that when you're racing you can have a completely unavoidable fatal accident with ease. There's much less risk of death associated with motocross, typically you'll get broken bones but less of the more serious injuries due to the low speeds involved. Big bikes and cars have big potential dangers associated with them and if you think motocross and push bikes are dangerous you need to take a big rethink.

Quote from ajp71 :

No motor racing is actually dangerous in a way riding your bike isn't. It is getting safer but you've got to accept that when you're racing you can have a completely unavoidable fatal accident with ease. There's much less risk of death associated with motocross, typically you'll get broken bones but less of the more serious injuries due to the low speeds involved. Big bikes and cars have big potential dangers associated with them and if you think motocross and push bikes are dangerous you need to take a big rethink.

I know they are no where near as dangerours as cars and big bikes, motorcross a push bikes are no where near as dangerous, I know that, I don't think motorcross bikes a push bikes are dangerous anyway. Even though I had a terrible accident on a push bikes within about 2 weeks of being out of hospital I got on the very same bike I came off of.

Quote from ajp71 :

A quick look on the AMOC website reveals they're 30 minute races, hardly what I call endurance. In contrast Britcars shortest races are 100 minutes and a set of tires should do qualifying and a 100 minute race without there being any point in changing, after which the tires may be able to do another run but over such a distance it is very different.

Racing slicks are nothing like performance road tires and need to be replaced much more often. The Morgans also do 30 minute races and keenest people might go through 3 sets a season but that's the maximum there's any point in using, not the minimum. The concept of doing a qualifying session and a 30 minute race on A038s then throwing them out is ridiculous.

Its A048, your really starting to bug me! READ MY POSTS!! I said he uses them for 4 or 5 races/weekends before he gets s new set but still keeps the old ones for trackdays with the track car. At any point did i say he uses them for 30 minutes and throws them away.
AMOC classes its races as endurance with driver changes etc thats why i said it was an endurance race. He does alot of miles on them with 4 20 minute sessions at each weekdn chucking 3 AMOC races with it, also 6 sessions at spa.