So there is this movie where a guy from "Top Gear" compares driving in Gran Turismo 4 and in real life on Laguna Seca.

Aside from it being a generally interesting movie, it got me thinking. I played just about every popular racing game there is. Nascar, GT series, Forza, NFS(back from the 1st one)...you name it.

I stumbled on LFS a couple of months back, and, like many of us, tried to collect the jaw from my floor for the first couple of days. The level of realism was simply astounding for me!

It took me a couple of months to decide to switch to the S2 license, and I damn am I happy I did! There is so much depth to this game, so much realism, that I believe I will hardly ever switch to another racing game.

But personal talk aside, the guy in this video drove a 1:41 on Laguna Seca in Honda NSX. In real life, he only managed 1:57(!) That is a huge difference in time. I know that there is room for improvement(on the GTi, I was able to come down to 1:34 in a month, but I think that is my limit, due to the fact that I use a gamepad), but he is a skilled driver, and yet the guy lost 16 seconds!

He goes on to say that, first of all, it's the fear factor. He can't physically avoid the fear of braking late before the screwcork turn. Second, GT doesn't simulate certain physical aspects, such as brake heating.

Now, this got me thinking. What if he tried the same thing, but in Live for Speed? Would the realism level in LFS be good enough to, say, make him drive just a few seconds difference between virtual and real life?

For one, I believe it'd be definetely more realistic. We know that, that's why we love LFS. I even believe that LFS simulates a part of the fear factor. Even on the GTi, in my first weeks, I couldn't put myself to break late enough. Or that feeling when this light car is doing 190km/h and you can almost feel that one mistake with the brake, one wrong turn of the wheel, one shift-down too quick and you're gonna end up against the wall. It's beautiful.

It got me wondering, if maybe we can write the guys at "Top Gear" to try out LFS, and see what would they come up with?

They could try it, but they would have nothing to compare it to since LFS doesnt have any real tracks in it. They would have to make two exact autocross courses.

There has already been a good discussion on the subject.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4070

1) GT4 isn't realistic. The cars are too fast around the majority of tracks, and don't react properly, meaning you can take faster lines that physics would allow in real life.

2) Jeremy Clarkson is a journalist, not a professional driver. He's good for a journalist, but still NOWHERE NEAR the talent of most racing drivers.

3) Yes fear comes into it, but not as much as 16 seconds accounts for.

4) Who knows if LFS would be closer. We can't compare properly, but I suspect it would (be closer, not bang on). But at the same time I think that the main problem with games that have 'real' cars and 'real' tracks is that every single little deficiency shows up. A tenth there, 0.1G here, 1kg over there etc.

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

Quote from J.B. :

There has already been a good discussion on the subject.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=4070

Me bad! "Use the search, Luke"!

makes me think
how much money would it cost to get the copy rights to make a real race track in LFS.

Quote from Vendetta :

They would have to make two exact autocross courses.

I created a replica of an autocross course for Warper, the track is what is being used in the German Formula Student Championships this year. Assuming I did a good enough job, you could compare the MRT5 with the vehicles competing there.

But still, it's not identical (either car or track). I think the ideal solution is for someone to build Blackwood. Ideally on the field behind my house. Portsmouth doesn't need water resovouirs anyway.

A license for a real track would certainly cost more than to get Scawen to make us a new physics patch.
-> Postponed!


Except, of course, if LFS is going to get the Nordschleife. Then I'll switch teams and tell everyone who would favor a physics patch over the Nordschleife that he is a moron.

Vain

@Bob Smith: Hehe, yes, why bother with licensing fees anyway? Make them pay us so they're allowed to rebuild the wonderful LFS tracks

Quote from AndroidXP :

@Bob Smith: Hehe, yes, why bother with licensing fees anyway? Make them pay us so they're allowed to rebuild the wonderful LFS tracks

Yes, I think it's about time this whole liscensing issue is turned round. Having a car or track in GT4 must be one of the best advertising a company could ever get in the under 30 year old group. It would be interesting to know if the release of GT4 had any influence on the number of visitors to the Nordschleife. I can't imagine that it didn't cause an increase.

Quote from Aahz :

But personal talk aside, the guy in this video drove a 1:41 on Laguna Seca in Honda NSX. In real life, he only managed 1:57(!) That is a huge difference in time. I know that there is room for improvement(on the GTi, I was able to come down to 1:34 in a month, but I think that is my limit, due to the fact that I use a gamepad), but he is a skilled driver, and yet the guy lost 16 seconds!

Difference on Nordschleife is nearly 1½ minutes. What a realistic game we have!

Real life track record:
"Sports car":
Derek Bell / Stefan Bellof (Porsche 956 Group C)
6:25.91 (194.33 km/h) in the 1000-km race 1983

And in GT4:
04:44.650 Toyota Minolta Toyota 88C-V Race Car '89 (Group C car too)

Quote from Vendetta :

They could try it, but they would have nothing to compare it to since LFS doesnt have any real tracks in it. They would have to make two exact autocross courses.

But they wouldn't be interested in making a insert about LFS because it's not media sexy enough (GTR, GT Legends etc. might be).

Quote from tristancliffe :

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

We simmers always remember to mention that point. But on the other hand you can play LFS with a keyboard/mouse or pad. Of course it's 100x harder than playing GT4.

Quote from tristancliffe :

2) Jeremy Clarkson is a journalist, not a professional driver. He's good for a journalist, but still NOWHERE NEAR the talent of most racing drivers.

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

I must pull you up on a technicality there tc: He's definitely not a racer, but I think the fact that Big Jez is paid to drive cars and then go on tv and talk about them makes him, by definition, a professional driver. Technically He also happens to have the coolest job in tv history. The bastard. I recall an old-ish episode where he was driving an EVO VIII and was keeping up with a BTCC driver who was in a Lambo Murcielago. Not bad for a 7-foot journo ...

Also, I thought the Gran Turismo series was made primarily to showcase every single bloody model of Nissan Skyline ever made in the history of the world including the crap ones, and making money was an afterthought

deggis: a 4.44 at Nurby? Yep, it's the ultimate driving simulator alright I mean, it's awesome fun for battling friends at home after a couple of Guinness cans, but a sim it aint!

clarkson is a shocking driver but a great presenter! a satelite dish faced comedian (Jimmy Carr) was 4 seconds faster than him, that is something to be ashamed of!

A friend of mine I met, Earl, Euroboss F1 champ. Told me... Everyone has a set speed they feel comfortable with. Driving a car past what you think is safe(but still within the cars limits) is the hard part. Sometimes you have to keep on the gas just a little more when you feel like you should mash the break.

The simple awnser is this. We need a masive autocross area in LFS so we can replicate the Top Gear test track, an old airfield. Then they can test the Race About in both LFS and in real life. That would be the easiest to do aside from building and auto cross track in real life and LFS and running to two head to head in that venue.

The tools are there just takes some one to get them to do it. Having direct data between the two would also be a benifit to LFS as far as getting the physics nailed down better.

I only wish people could notice the Enthusia Proffesional Racing that I could even call a simulator. Ofcourse to feel it you have to drive in 900 degrees mode. Steering is waaaay better than in the so called "The real driving simulator" pff. In GT4 you steer with your wheel a little, in enthusia hovewer, you have to do this like you would in real life - that really makes it fun. On top of that, every car feels different, I would even say very different. And why did enthusia get very low sales? Well, obviously releasing a sim on a console isn't best marketing idea. And another question, why most of the GT4 players think enthusia suck? Because in their opinion GT4 is real life, and since Enthusia doesn't feel like it - 'it suxx' illepall.
If developers did EPR for PC, it would have been a very sucessful title among simracers. Even with its arcadey gameplay structure, because what matters in this title is you, your car, and the road. :eclipseeh

Enthusia took a battering in all the reviews I saw [admittedly not many] but poor reviews don't exactly help sales I suppose. I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's any good, since I've never played it.

I guess the thing to bear in mind with anything Clarkson related is that he's a journalist/entertainer/broadcaster, who does genuinely love cars, but Top Gear's gotta think of the viewing figures first, a fact born out by the fact that it's become much more entertainment programme/exotic car showcase and much less serious motoring programme over the past few years.

On the subject of Gran Turismo, well I can manage just under 5 minutes for the ring on a joypad in the Minolta Toyota, but I'm damned if the same joypad can get my Fox 'round Blackwood in under 1.14 so yeah no contest, LFS is a "sim" GT's a "game"

Quote from tristancliffe :

5) GT4 is made for 12 year olds and is designed to be fun with a gamepad. The single purpose of GT4 is to make money, not recreate real life. If it was realistic, it would be unplayable with a pad (and I can drive it with no aids on).

Does that mean that as LFS is playable with a pad with no aids its unrealistic?.

Dan,

Quote from Smax :

Enthusia took a battering in all the reviews I saw [admittedly not many] but poor reviews don't exactly help sales I suppose. I'm not going to comment on whether or not it's any good, since I've never played it.

Same thing happend with Richard Burns Rally on ps2. And on pc as well. Sim sites didn't review Enthusia, what do you expect?

(note:when i say 'rl' in the following, im referring to 'real life')
I played Enthusia after playing gt3 and 4 for a long time. I was looking for the most realistic driving simulator i could find and i of course hadnt heard of lfs yet. Actually i think in my quest for the perfect simulator i had downloaded the demo of lfs s1 and played it, but the physics were so wildly different from gt3 and 4 that i thought there was no way this could be realistic and dismissed it as sub standard. Just innocent ignorance, wasnt being a 'fanboy'. Anyway, enthusia is worlds above gt4, i thought they butchered the semi realistic physics from gt3 in gt4. Enthusias physics are much more convincing than either gt3 or 4. While i hadnt played enthusia for more than a few months before i got addicted to lfs s2, the one thing i do remember is that, like in gt3 and 4, the way to get around a (tight) corner fastest is to mash the brake in as hard as you can and steer about as hard as you can, which conveniently sends the back end into a nice little, easily controllable, perfect oversteer slide. Braking being like one of the most difficult and important parts of race driving, i was kind of disgusted with the braking physics of gt3, 4 and enthusia once i learned how incredibly subtle you need to be in rl braking (or the more realistic braking physics in LFS, that is).
Also, comparing virtual track times to real life track times is a ridiculous way to try and measure how realistic the games driving physics are in my opinion. I mean... duh, like someone said, there are going to be many variables that will cause differences which are trivial to deciding if a game has a very realistic feel. You simply need people who have raced in reality a good deal to describe which game more closely simulates the act of precision driving. No one know better than them. We all know there are plenty of poser fan boys who like to rant how they drove in the le mans 4 times or that they took there car onto a parking lot once and spun it around a few times and they know gt3 is the closest to reality by far. Honesty can be hard to come by on the internet obviously.
As far as all the reading ive done on the physics of racing, and my limited rl driving experience, lfs is the closest to rl by far.

PS. I heard a quote of Kaz. (the designer of gran turismo series) where he was dissing enthusia. He was saying that konami forgets that they are making a game, and that when you make the driving too realistic its not enjoyable by the average person anymore.
Well, that was the last time i touched the gt games anymore after I heard those blasphemous words come out of his mouth.

If you want this on Top Gear (which I don't actually think is such a far fetched idea, it is after all a programme about cars and LFS is a racing sim involving, cars) then do the work for them. Once the new physics is out, get the big Autox area made, or even the actual Top Gear track if it can be done acuratly enough then pitch it to them. Get hold of the right car (the raceabout or whatever it is) do all the work for them and you might find they might go for it.

Like anything, if they can get a story for free, and a failry entertaining one at that they are going to look more favourable on it.

It does need to be accurate though. Can The stig get good times on both . . . etc etc.

Don't sell yoursleves short, just needs a bit of work and it could well happen . . .

I just wouldn't say that the the Gran Turismos are total crap. Sure, they unrealistic, but I really don't believe that their goal was even to make a realistic game. I'd say that their goal was to make a playable game, realistic to a point. To me the gran turismo series have been quite enjoyable, even if it has major flaws in physics and everywhere. But I still enjoyed then, rarely nowadays simply because LFS is more interesting to me.

As to the comment "it is not a sim if you can play it with a gamepad". Bs. It's all about how the developers of the game do it. As to the marketing slogan, "The real driving simulator"... of course it is not true, it's marketing in the same way as all flying games call themselves simulator or simulations. Or the same thing was when Rally Trophy was released. The devs of that game said things like it had the most precise physics engine seen in any racing game, etc... And when Colin Mcrae rally was released, everybody thought it was quite realistic. Today saying that CM1 is realistic would be a bad joke.

Speaking of richard burns rally, first, does the ps2 version have the same physics as the pc version? Also, do I need a chip to run a pal or whatever version on my american ps2?

Agreed on the above comments about a gamepad not being capable of controlling a sim.

In gt4 the strong wind sound really adds to the sense of speed I think. That should be incorporated into the next lfs. The wind sound in there now is rather cheesy, unconvincing and weak sounding.

Anyone know any hotlap boards for enthusia racing? Or anyone who wants to hotlap with me got an aim name?

Quote from danowat :

Does that mean that as LFS is playable with a pad with no aids its unrealistic?.

Dan,

It's not AS playable, is it. How many WR's do you have with a joypad? How many WR's do joypad players have in GT4 - a larger percentage I guess.

Personally I, and the VAST majority of LFSers would really stuggle with a pad, so I salute you that you are capable of it (more so if you're a freaky type who uses two analogue sticks, cos that just hurts my brain). But I bet all of us (with a few daft exceptions) could do reasonably well in GT4 with a joypad, with no aids on, fairly quickly.

So, to sum up - neeeeeeerrrrrr (you'll have to say that 'word' just right to get me full meaning, but pffffff wouldn't be far off either )

^^ how the ?! how'd you get a PAL version of a game while living in the US...

as for the cost of licensing a track.. expensive.. lol VERY expensive at that. Obviously depending on the track, but you'd be better off going out and buying a dodge viper with that money

btw, any of you british guys, have any of you ever thought of emailing top gear and telling them about LFS? i wonder what they would make of it (obviously people here in the US would never see it.. unfortunately they canceled top gear on the discovery channel last year.. kinda sucks)
obviously now wouldnt be the best time, i would wait a while until the physics are better